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stevieu 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 1:55:45
#641 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Apr-2003
Posts: 647
From: England, UK

@TheMaskedMuchacho

I totally agree with your last comment.

Steve

_________________
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A1200 - OS3.1: Blizzard IV 030, 64mb ram, 400mb HDD

OS4.x - Flying the AMIGA flag

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Derfs 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 5:48:47
#642 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 787
From: me To: you

@BigD

Sounds like it's more to do with you wanting osX rather than amigaOS as you are talking software

if the full features of the gfx cards were used full speed dvd would be available on amigaOS

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Leo 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 6:28:49
#643 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

BeOS couldnt survive on x86, OS2 couldnt survive on x86

Ok, and what about this way ?

BeOS couldn't survive on PPC, so they switched to x86. Now they declared bankrupt, but this has nothing to do with x86 or PPC.

Apple couldn't survive on PPC, so they switched to x86.

Linux couldn't survive on x86.. oops! Actually Linux first appeared on x86, and is well alive thanks to x86. But desktop market is dead on PPC, so the bigger Linux desktop player (Ubuntu) stopped supporting PPC.

FreeBSD, NetBSD, and all BSD flavors are all well alive and kicking... on x86.

I'm really wondering why BSD crews aren't focusing their efforts on ARM since x86 and Windows will kill them...

I'm also wondering why Ubuntu choosed to stop supporting PPC since it's well alive and kicking, see: XBox 360, Wii, PS3 are all using PPC-Based CPU. So don't tell me it's dead !

...

Last edited by Leo on 28-Jul-2009 at 06:33 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 28-Jul-2009 at 06:32 AM.

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Manu 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 6:38:00
#644 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@Leo

Lol, so you're telling me Aros is doomed too, being x86 and all

Last edited by Manu on 28-Jul-2009 at 06:38 AM.

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Varthall 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 6:54:49
#645 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Feb-2004
Posts: 1559
From: Up Rough

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
I'm also wondering why Ubuntu choosed to stop supporting PPC since it's well alive and kicking, see: XBox 360, Wii, PS3 are all using PPC-Based CPU. So don't tell me it's dead !
...

In fact they didn't: the PPC Ubuntu release is now a community based release, rather than official.

Quote:

The Ubuntu Technical Board has decided to reclassify PowerPC as an
unofficial architecture, rather than a fully supported architecture, for
Ubuntu 7.04 and subsequent releases. This means that packages and ISO
images will continue to be produced, but releases will not be delayed due
to problems which are specific to PowerPC, and the quality of the PowerPC
release itself will depend very much on the extent to which members of the
Ubuntu community drive PowerPC testing and bug fixes.


Quote:

It is possible that PowerPC will once again become a fully supported
architecture in the future, if the resources needed to guarantee its
quality are found. The architecture is certainly gaining large numbers of
users in embedded and console devices, and there are many reasons to
continue to work with the platform. These uses are outside of the core
Ubuntu mandate, however, so resources cannot be diverted from our server
and desktop efforts just to address their needs.


From PowerPCReview:

Quote:

Reasons for keeping PowerPC as a fully supported architecture:
(omiss)
Sony's PS3 is PowerPC based and will support running Linux. It will be a modern and powerful platform, easily available for end users.


Varthall

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NovaCoder 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 6:57:38
#646 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2008
Posts: 489
From: Melbourne (Australia)

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:

Apple couldn't survive on PPC, so they switched to x86.

...


That's not quite correct, they simple choose to go x86 (I assume for cost reasons).

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PulsatingQuasar 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 7:36:37
#647 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 550
From: The Netherlands, Europe

Apple went to x86 mainly because of the Core 2 Duo and later processor. On the PPC front there wasn't anything as competitive and cheap. Apple needed to go Intel to make powerfull and cheap enough desktop machines and powerfull and energy efficient enough mobile CPU's to fit in their flat notebooks. Also the supply of those Intel CPU's are much larger.

Apple could only go Intel because the PowerPC wasn't competitive enough in price and performance.

So I really have no idea why people here argue about if PPC is dead for desktop machines because it is. PowerPC CPU's have major problems in any of the following:
- low supply;
- usually not socketed;
- when compared to x86 too expensive;
- when compared to x86 not fast enough;
- when compared to x86 not energy efficient enough;
- no fast enough executed Roadmap;
- no competition to keep cost down.

If the largest user of PowerPC for desktop and notebook machines decides to ditch the PowerPC for an Intel then there is a good reason for it. Who else is using them now in desktops or laptops? No one!! Maybe 0.000000000000001% of the world population buys some vague machine with a PowerPC in it.

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Anonymous 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 8:28:33
# ]

0
0

@Varthall

Quote:

In fact they didn't: the PPC Ubuntu release is now a community based release, rather than official.


He was right though wasn't he? Ubuntu are the company and they no longer support PPC:

"The PowerPC software itself and supporting infrastructure will continue to be available, and supported by a community team... The Ubuntu Technical Board has decided to reclassify PowerPC as an unofficial architecture, rather than a fully supported architecture, for Ubuntu 7.04 and subsequent releases."


EDIT: perhaps I'm wrong, but I assumed this just meant users and unofficial developers on forums. There's an interesting language subtlety. If you ask "does Ubuntu support x86?" you could either answer "yes, it does" or "no, they don't" and they could both be correct answers! (of course someone will say, you should follow the 'does' in your answer, but conversation often doesn't work like that...)

Last edited by clebin on 28-Jul-2009 at 08:50 AM.
Last edited by clebin on 28-Jul-2009 at 08:49 AM.
Last edited by clebin on 28-Jul-2009 at 08:29 AM.

 
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OldFart 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 9:14:18
#649 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@PulsatingQuasar

Quote:
Maybe 0.000000000000001% of the world population buys some vague machine with a PowerPC in it.

Yep! That was me. Always been a man with a liking for controversy. Never realized though, that it could be expressed in a figure.

OldFart

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Frek 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 9:35:18
#650 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Jul-2009
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@NovaCoder

Actually they couldn't survive with the PPC, the PPC lost momentum and there was basically no evoultion for two years.
IBM also failed to make a respectable laptop class PPC, Motorola had since long given up the desktop market; So they had no option either.

Apple had ageing hardware- and while the desktop hardware they had just barely could keep up with the x86, their laptop hardware was several years behind.

Either they silently vanished from the market, or they could migrate to a new architecture where the manufactuers actually cared for the desktop market- Instead of just concentrating on embedded systems (Motorola/Freescale) or powerful but power hungry processors (IBM).

On top of that, yes they probably cut alot of costs not having to design northbridges etc by themselves, but on the otherhand they stepped up on custom hardware since then- so I'm not sure what impact the cost had, for the consumer the benefit is very obvious.

Apples hardware is competitive both in price and performance with other OEM manufacturers hardware.

---

Also, if you think short time cost was the sole reason, you should be aware that this switch is among the most expensive architecture switches ever done by Apple.

There are no official figures- but you can be pretty sure just Rosetta (Transistives QuikTransit) wasn't cheap- I don't know any exact figures, but I heard from inofficial sources that it still cost Apple per license. (And you can expect it to be removed out of the system fairly soon; if not with Snow Leopard, with 10.7 it will certainly be gone.)

Except for that the development cost of the system itself since 2001 is certainly not few digits either, along with all transistion kits and support provided.

And finally all PPC hw that had to be get rid off, they lowered the price so much so I'm fairly sure they sold them with a loss.

I'm pretty sure the PPC -> x86 switch is among the most expensive things Apple ever done.

Last edited by Frek on 28-Jul-2009 at 09:47 AM.

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Frek 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 9:38:23
#651 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Jul-2009
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@clebin

You are right about Ubuntu/PPC.

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brotsalami 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 10:17:06
#652 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2009
Posts: 36
From: Unknown

Another guess from my side...


Hyperion is developing an "off topic thread search algorythm"


This thread is going to be the one with the highest score I guess.


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Bite Me!

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serk118 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 10:20:59
#653 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 685
From: London(uk)

Quote:
Maybe 0.000000000000001% of the world population buys some vague machine with a PowerPC in it


Since 1998 till 2005 apple only sold %5 ppc based dektops and x86 had the rest as biggest bite from the cake and than apple went x86 because x86 was the only HW can handle today OS`es and it was cheap,fast plus everyone already got one or two indoors so if you can not get people to buy your HW than get them to buy you os and force people to unInstall Windoz run macOS on it.(one of them is my brother & he is running MAC on x86 since 2008 and never went back (he was an amiga user when we where big in the game)).

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Arko 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 10:40:40
#654 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown


Quote:
Maybe 0.000000000000001% of the world population buys some vague machine with a PowerPC in it.





AFAIK 50% of all cars have at least on PPC processor in it ... but the CPU is not the problem. It is more a question where Hyperion will sell their OS and what boards they will support.

There are enough old PPC Macs around to satisfy the AOS4 market for the next 5 years.
5 years are time enough for Hyperion to port their AOS to something else.

But who knows, maybe Hyperion is not interested in a long term development for only 2000 users. Or they just try to sell as much as they could, before Amiga Inc. givers away the rights in a garage sale.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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olegil 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 10:40:52
#655 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@serk118

Really. Is punctuation really that scarce in UK these days?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Frek 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 10:41:39
#656 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Jul-2009
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@serk118

If it haven't occured to you yet, Apple does not want people to run MacOS X on their regular PCs.
They don't support it, and they regulary break things for the "hackintoshes".

The x86 move was only to move the Mac platform from 2003 into the future. When it was announced many were skeptical- but with the aftermath it's easy to see that this decision was the only saneway.
99.9% of all users don't care what processor the system uses, 80% of the programmers don't care either, as Cocoa is exactly the same on both platforms.
If you use Cocoas method for storage etc you don't even notice the endian difference,
Altivec is not missed either as developers who begun using Apples Accelerate.framework when recommended also made a pretty transparent upgrade- performance difference in most vector utilities are today close to zero, and will be by far surpass Altivec in most applications with Snow Leopard as it brings OpenCL to the table.


---

And yes, buying a mac today is not much of a gamble. if you're not happy with MacOS X you can install whatever x86 system you want- Especially if you got the desktop models this is about impossible to distinguish from a regular PC.

Last edited by Frek on 28-Jul-2009 at 10:43 AM.

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Arko 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 10:54:07
#657 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Frek

Quote:

The x86 move was only to move the Mac platform from 2003 into the future.


The reasons for Apple are simple, Apple doesn't needs a big r&d department for hardware anymore, they can goe to every company in China and ask them to make a board especially for them ... they could save a lot money, the performance could compete with other x86 products without the need to invent evry thing again for the Mac ...

Standard Northbridge, Southbridge, PCI components, higher flexibillity, lower costs, they could buy wherever they want ... they just have to design a nice case and some fancy extras.

cu

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Frek 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 11:10:48
#658 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Jul-2009
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@Arko

Apple used standard components since 1998. PCI, IDE and so on.

Infact they ramped up their R&D team significantly the last few years- I don't know if it's as big or bigger than in the early 90s however, but it's significantly bigger than it was during the late 90s and early 00s.

Just to give you one idea- they purchased P.A Semi as late as 2008- this if anything proves that they're definately not giving up custom chips. What's going on there is so far secret; Some think it's iPhone related; I doubt it is- it will be hard compete with ARM, and PWRefficient (Which is PowerPC for that matter) is/was not intended for handheld devices.

---

Also there are other attributes that would make a PPC bad in a small embedded system such as a cellphone, for one it's not efficient in a system with narrow busses and little memory.

Last edited by Frek on 28-Jul-2009 at 11:13 AM.

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Arko 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 11:25:10
#659 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Frek

Quote:

Frek wrote:
@Arko

Apple used standard components since 1998. PCI, IDE and so on.


Of course, and they got more and more standard with every year, x86 was just the last switch. Now they could buy their mainboard evrywhere.

Quote:

Infact they ramped up their R&D team significantly the last few years


Soft- or hardware ?
For computers or gadgets ?

AFAIk they even use standard designs from other companies iun th

- I don't know if it's as big or bigger than in the early 90s however, but it's significantly bigger than it was during the late 90s and early 00s.

Quote:

Just to give you one idea- they purchased P.A Semi as late as 2008- this if anything proves that they're definately not giving up custom chips.


AFAIk they are still using standar of the shelf ARM CPUs from TI.

Quote:

What's going on there is so far secret; Some think it's iPhone related; I doubt it is- it will be hard compete with ARM, and PWRefficient (Which is PowerPC for that matter) is/was not intended for handheld devices.


I'm curious to see what is going on their, if they have just bought PaSemi for the deleopment of own ARM hardware it would be a waste.

But how big is PaSemi 20 developers or more ?

Last edited by Arko on 28-Jul-2009 at 11:25 AM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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serk118 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 11:51:25
#660 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 685
From: London(uk)

@Arko

i was thinking why apple buy pasemi?
article about that at
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/04/24/why-did-apple-buy-pa-semi/

Last edited by serk118 on 28-Jul-2009 at 11:53 AM.
Last edited by serk118 on 28-Jul-2009 at 11:52 AM.

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