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Leo 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 18:30:10
#681 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

Millions of people wanting to run Amiga OS are not going to appear out of nowhere just because it runs on x86 and most would expect a certain level of functionality thats just not there at the minute in OS4.1

Of course. You are absolutely right.

You have to improve the OS, and make some apps available.

But what's sure, is that millions of people won't magically appear on PPC either, even though the OS was made modern and apps were available. That is my point.

On x86 you have the *potential*. On PPC, you don't even have the potential. So it's like shooting yourself in the foot.

And if you ask me, I prefer go the x86 road, and being shot by others, than staying on PPC, and never try anything...

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cv643d 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 19:51:34
#682 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2009
Posts: 262
From: Stockholm - Sweden

Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote:
@cv643d

i'm not interested at all. Stop with the Amiga.



I can not stop, not only do I bleed red, I pee red too!

JK, seriously:

Two montsh from now, H-perion presents a profesional roadmap, a believable way of making money with Workbench (oops, I mean, OS4,x), new partners, new hardware, transparant 68k AGA emulation, everyone makes money and hardcore Amiga fans get quad core boxes capable of running four MPEG streams at the same time. . ehum wait,, its not 1998 still? I mean 128 MPEG streams at the same time in HD-res.

You will see... you will see!!
















(maybe not)

Last edited by cv643d on 28-Jul-2009 at 07:52 PM.

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 20:56:15
#683 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@TheMaskedMuchacho

Quote:

TheMaskedMuchacho wrote:
MOST people would choose to use windows out of familiarity and because thats what runs the software they need, thats why MOST people use windows now and not Linux or OSX. even a $99 motherboard would not change that,


That's basically my point. People are going to use Windows because it runs the software they need.

People seem to argue that, if you sell AmigaOS4 bundled to an $800 then they will choose not to use Windows, but if you bundle AmigaOS4 to $99 hardware they WILL choose to use Windows.

It makes no sense.

And yeah, there were plenty of people saying x86 was the path to choose back then. One of those was Gateway. x86 even back then was surpassing PPC. Apple themselves were already working on their port.


As far as, use AROS, this thread is about Hyperion and AmigaOS4. I use Linux, I use AROS, MacOS, etc.. I also want to use AmigaOS4 on fast hardware.

You don't have to stuck to one OS you know. -)


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Leo 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 21:03:36
#684 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

That's basically my point. People are going to use Windows because it runs the software they need

People already use Linux (or Mac): this doesn't change anything at all.

The only difference is that they have a computer they have no use for and only boot from time to time to play with OS4...

On a PC they'd boot OS4 from time to time to play with it as well. Only difference is that they wouldn't need to have another computer sitting under the desk... And of course the PC would be a lot faster.

Last edited by Leo on 28-Jul-2009 at 10:21 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 28-Jul-2009 22:38:37
#685 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Leo

The idea is to not need the PC or stop using it, but we are not there yet, too many productivity applications and games are missing, but over time we will get there.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2009 at 11:47 PM.

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ne_one 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 1:40:59
#686 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
The idea is to not need the PC or stop using it, but we are not there yet, too many productivity applications and games are missing, but over time we will get there.


You're joking right? Based on my calendar it's no longer 1985.

People choose the best solution for their needs based on price, features and availability. And that often means investing in multiple options because they have the ability to do so.

The reason the AmigaOS has such a limited market isn't because of its deficiencies. It's because it isn't readily available on inexpensive hardware.

Let's be real: the number of people that would pay for OS4 on a PC on one rainy weekend would far exceed the number of active users.

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TheMaskedMuchacho 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 2:11:25
#687 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Feb-2006
Posts: 341
From: Unknown


My point was that development of the OS would be stopped while porting to X86, it would be stuck in its current state for a long time, people would need to be paid for a long time while not getting much in sales while it was being ported then when it goes on sale it would be mocked my the majority of people for not being modern enough, would only sell a few thousnand copies although definately more than it ever will on PPC in this market but not enough to cover the cost of porting in the first place.

If there is another market lined up to sell the current PPC incarnation to then it should be continually developed on PPC, when and if enough money has been made and the feature set is sufficient to appeal to users outside of this community who have become accustomed to modern features in their OS then maybe it would make good business sense to port to x86 but at the same time the market would be large enough to sell a PPC motherboard to in sufficient numbers that it could be sold at a price that would appeal to the same people. Right now the market for desktop OS4 on any architecture is too small to base a sound business strategy around, the market for OS4 on x86 would have to be about 100 times or more than it is on PPC to make it worth while and i just don't think it is. There just isnt enough Money behind it to make supporting more than one CPU architecture viable unless there is a secret investor with a few million euro willing to write off an investment.

Amiga OS is not a high volume desktop operating system, it can only survive if there is another market to sell to and this will be its primary market, not us few fans, x86 only makes sense for desktop use, PPC can work just as well or better in other markets. Hyperion need to make money from the OS, x86 would just eat money as constantly keeping up with changing hardware would need constant development that would take people away from the core OS. there are many more reasons to not port to x86 than there are to do it when you consider it and i don't think not wanting to have more than one box on your desk is going to change anybodies mind.

Amiga OS 4.1 is available now and is still being developed, be thankful its available at all, i think the only way its going to run on x86 is if somebody somehow gets it to boot on pearpc but don't hold your breath for that either.


Disclaimer:

Nothing i say is based on anything more than my own thoughts and beliefs, in all honesty i know nothing of business or software development but can only base what i think on logical reasoning. I'm happy for people to point out where i'm clearly mistaken because i know it happens often

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-pekr- 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 4:18:23
#688 ]
Member
Joined: 29-May-2007
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@TheMaskedMuchacho

You PPC followers start to be really laughable. So keeping up with x86 HW options is worse, than not having viable PPC alternatives at all, righ? ROTFL. Besides that - couldn't you choose some chipsets to support? Who requests the support for tonnes of motherboards? Please stop bullying ppl with false arguments.

Anyone who can't see that PPC is over as a viable, low cost, low power consumption and desktop CPU, does not really know how to read between the lines of what is actual state of the technology.

Give me easily upgradable, replacable and available HW options, or go away. Give me that for under 300 USD or go away. If you can't see, that depending upon mostly one HW supplier is a long term curse for the Amiga platform, then probably noone can help you, because in the end, it will cost Amiga platform much higher price to stick to such a situation, than to change it asap.

The only thing I can agree to is, that maybe it is a bit too much for Hyperion to make the transition economically viable for them, but besides that - there is absolutly no reason to stick to PPC anymore. I think there should be both the short term, and the long term plan, and the long term one should definitelly dismiss PPC ....

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OldFart 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 6:59:15
#689 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Leo

Quote:
The only difference is that they have a computer they have no use for and only boot from time to time to play with OS4...

You're so right about that! I only fire OS4 up every now and then, that means every day at 8:00h in the morning and shuting it down (simply push the button, btw...) around 23.00h. Next to the Amiga sits a Windows/Linux dual boot beast that gets used for the more 'serious' jobs to be done. Every once in a while, which is once or twice a week, it is being fired up, which takes litterally ages!, and then the 'serious' app is selected, which on the Windows side of the matter again takes ages.

Quote:
And of course the PC would be a lot faster.

I could not agree more! So well said.

Oh, well...
Postcount is upped nicely this way. Probably the only virtue of this thread.
EDIT: hm, looking at my postcount I realise that it currently reflects my year of birth! This coincidence will change very soon!

Gidmownin' to all of you.

OldFart

Last edited by OldFart on 29-Jul-2009 at 07:05 AM.
Last edited by OldFart on 29-Jul-2009 at 07:03 AM.

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 6:59:26
#690 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1226
From: Athens/Greece

@-pekr-

Mate, who on earth, except our community, will buy a x86 system with limited support? Why the f*, should someone choose to install OS4.x on a x86 system and knows already that not everything which will buy from his regular computer shop will run out-of-the-box? Not to mention that you really can't expect that the price of OS4.1x86 will be the price only of the x86 machine + 100 euros for OS4.1. Oh, and I forgot, to mention the amigans which will say when the x86 system is announced the following:

- What? No support for Asus Mobos?
- What? No support for Chaintech Mobos?
- What? No support for MSI mobos?
- What? No suppotr for Intel Quad Core?
- What? No support for Inter i7 Core?
- What? Nosupport for NVidia?
- What? No support for x,y,z chipset?

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Leo 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 7:24:12
#691 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

Oh, and I forgot, to mention the amigans which will say when the x86 system is announced the following:

So what ?
Whatever you do, some people will complain...

The trick is to make them understand your choice: look at Apple... mainy people said "what ? x86 ? never !" Where are we now ?

Quote:

Why the f*, should someone choose to install OS4.x on a x86 system and knows already that not everything which will buy from his regular computer shop will run out-of-the-box?

Because they are amigan.

Why the f** would people buy 800 euro iphone-equivalent (in terms of power) computers so outdated that you can't even put in a pcie board, and so underpowered that you can't even play a dvd at full speed without frameskip ?

I think it wouldn't be a problem for them to spend 100e on an hypothetic OS4/x86. And at least they could play DVDs on their PC...

Btw ask yourself: how many people that already were owning a Pegasos and MorphOS bought OS4.1 ?
Why the f*** would they do that since they already had MorphOS (and possibly Linux, MacOSX,...) ?

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 7:38:59
#692 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1226
From: Athens/Greece

@Leo

Quote:

Why the f*, should someone choose to install OS4.x on a x86 system and knows already that not everything which will buy from his regular computer shop will run out-of-the-box?

Because they are amigan.


The first paragraph of my post was geared towards those who are NOT amigans. Those peaople will not buy a x86 machine that is not capable of recognising and make use of all the external devices they want to buy from their regular pc store. Or they will install Windows and work on it rather than spending their time strugling to find a device with exact specifications that will be ready for use.

Quote:

Why the f** would people buy 800 euro iphone-equivalent (in terms of power) computers so outdated that you can't even put in a pcie board, and so underpowered that you can't even play a dvd at full speed without frameskip ?


I can answer you that because I own one of these machnes. Because we were/are desperate. Otherwise, it makes no sense.

Quote:

I think it wouldn't be a problem for them to spend 100e on an hypothetic OS4/x86. And at least they could play DVDs on their PC...


No, the cost won't be only 100euros extra. It will be much more because Hyperion will have to match up the costs of porting.

Quote:

Btw ask yourself: how many people that already were owning a Pegasos and MorphOS bought OS4.1 ?
Why the f*** would they do that since they already had MorphOS (and possibly Linux, MacOSX,...) ?


Because it cost them 100euros extra and because they want to have all amigaOS flavors. But the cost of a OS4.x on x86 will be much higher. I and You will probably buy the machine but I doubt a regular user outside our community will.

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OldFart 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 8:18:07
#693 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Leo

Quote:
So what ? Whatever you do, some people will complain...

Your abillity of selfreflection is highly disarming...

OldFart

EDIT: Sjit! Now my postcount does no longer reflect my year of birth. Told you that coincidence would not last long!

Last edited by OldFart on 29-Jul-2009 at 08:20 AM.

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Arko 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 8:21:02
#694 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

Quote:

Why the f*, should someone choose to install OS4.x on a x86 system and knows already that not everything which will buy from his regular computer shop will run out-of-the-box?


If Hyperion would support x86 systems, they will use the same marketing scheme they are using today on PPC systems.

This would mean:

- only motherboards from licenced distributors / manifacturers will be supported
- licenced motherboards will have a patched bios to prevent 'piracy'
- licenced motherboards will be selected to meet the AOS4_x86 capabillities

this requirements will result in:

- the licenced x86 motherboard will be more expensive
- you will not be able to buy a licenced motherboard x86 everywhere
- the hardware of a licenced x86 motherboar will be selected for AOS4
( single core CPU, no multithreading, subset of audio, video, ethernet, usb hardware )
- it will be impossible to install AOS4_x86 on your Windows-PC but it m,ight by possible to install windows on your Hyperion licenced x86 PC.

Many hopes of people wanting AOS4 for x86, will not be fullfilled by an AOS4_x86.
Today we can buy a lot of PPC hardware, but we could only use a small subset to run AOS4, a CPU change for AOS4 will not lead to a change in Hyperion's marketing scheme.

cu

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I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
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OldFart 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 9:30:18
#695 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Arko

Quote:
this requirements will result in:
- the licenced x86 motherboard will be more expensive
- you will not be able to buy a licenced motherboard x86 everywhere
- the hardware of a licenced x86 motherboar will be selected for AOS4
( single core CPU, no multithreading, subset of audio, video, ethernet, usb hardware )
- it will be impossible to install AOS4_x86 on your Windows-PC but it m,ight by possible to install windows on your Hyperion licenced x86 PC.

You've taken this from some Apple's site and replaced OSX by OS4? It does bear so much resemblance here!
Apple did it; a good thing!
Hyperion would do so? Bad, bad, bad!

Alright, BSD in all its flavours is rather mature and available for free for generic x86, yet I still have to encounter one installation...

OldFart

Last edited by OldFart on 29-Jul-2009 at 09:31 AM.
Last edited by OldFart on 29-Jul-2009 at 09:31 AM.

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Fransexy 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 10:24:19
#696 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

Oh, and I forgot, to mention the amigans which will say when the x86 system is announced the following:

So what ?
Whatever you do, some people will complain...

The trick is to make them understand your choice: look at Apple... mainy people said "what ? x86 ? never !" Where are we now ?



therefore, apply the story and shut.It´s their choice (Powerpc)

Quote:

Quote:

Why the f*, should someone choose to install OS4.x on a x86 system and knows already that not everything which will buy from his regular computer shop will run out-of-the-box?

Because they are amigan.

Why the f** would people buy 800 euro iphone-equivalent (in terms of power) computers so outdated that you can't even put in a pcie board, and so underpowered that you can't even play a dvd at full speed without frameskip ?


For the same reason people pay 800 euro for an Iphone (the first one) that is behind the rest of phones in specs and the only thing that was ahead of the competition was the OS





ADMIT IT: two things or you irrationally hate AmigaOS or you are "hired" by Amigaworld staff to encourage discussions

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PulsatingQuasar 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 10:36:37
#697 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 550
From: The Netherlands, Europe

@Arko

Quote:
Today we can buy a lot of PPC hardware, but we could only use a small subset to run AOS4, a CPU change for AOS4 will not lead to a change in Hyperion's marketing scheme.


The main difference would be cheaper hardware. Which is not only good for first time users but also for replacement if your hardware breaks down.

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TheMaskedMuchacho 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 10:36:49
#698 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Feb-2006
Posts: 341
From: Unknown

@-pekr-

Please read what i wrote properly before you comment on it, that you call me a ppc follower was the first sign that you had not read what i wrote and then continuing to tell me how ppc is not viable as a desktop cpu caused me to stop reading your pos completely.


I have made it clear i am not a supporter of any cpu and would love os4.1 on x86 i just don't see how its possible with the tiny market. I cannot use os4 due to the high price of the hardware and would jump at the chance to run it on cheap x86 hardware but if you think about it properly there just isnt a market for it. and why tell me how PPC is not viable on the desktop when i have already said that quite a few times myself.

What you x86 supporters need to understand is that amiga os is just as dead on the desktop as PPC and to survive there needs to be a more viable market to sell to, you all seem to assume it would automatically sell millions of copies if ported to x86 or you expect hyperion to write off a huge investment in porting.

Last edited by TheMaskedMuchacho on 29-Jul-2009 at 10:57 AM.
Last edited by TheMaskedMuchacho on 29-Jul-2009 at 10:56 AM.

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Arko 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 10:36:52
#699 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@OldFart
Quote:

You've taken this from some Apple's site and replaced OSX by OS4?
It does bear so much resemblance here! Apple did it; a good thing!
Hyperion would do so? Bad, bad, bad!


What Apple does is not good, but they can live rather good with it.
10% of the PC OS market sounds bad but for Apple but it means they have 10% of the PC hardware market, they are one of the biggest hardware vendors.

What Hyperion does is bad ? No it's stupid, but if the AOS4 fans supports it they can go on. I don't think AOS4_x86 would transform ACube into one of the big PC hardware vendors.


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I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
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Arko 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 29-Jul-2009 11:02:49
#700 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Leo
[Quote:

On a PC they'd boot OS4 from time to time to play with it as well. Only difference is that they wouldn't need to have another computer sitting under the desk... And of course the PC would be a lot faster.


I don't know if Open Office and other Linux software exists for Linux-PPC but exactly as on x86 you can install an additional OS on your PPC system. And with MOL you can also use Mac software.

If there where a support for PPC Macs, it would be no problem at all.

What is missing is not a CPU it is a support for open available hardware ... if Hyperion would handle AOS4_x86 licences as they did on PPC, an AOS4_X86 would not only be a port of an OS it would be a port of the known market restrictions too.


@PulsatingQuasar
Quote:

The main difference would be cheaper hardware. Which is not only good for first time users but also for replacement if your hardware breaks down.


Used Macs are cheap too ...

Last edited by Arko on 29-Jul-2009 at 11:04 AM.

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I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
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