@jahc

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X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Thread What Classic software are people likely to want to use if they get interested with the Amiga again (yes POTENTIAL NEW USERS - you could put ME in that bracket if you want)? Deluxe Paint AGA Games OCS Games (...) I've got a Picasso IV card on my Classic, but I still prefer Delux Paint V over TV Paint! Deluxe Paint IV is described as working on OS4.x on these forums but I get the impression it's buggy and requires third party software! Am I right?

No, I have made some tests and both DPaint IV and V work without the use of any software, you just need to make sure to check a setting in the WB's prefs: thread. There's also a problem with the palette in the requesters, I believe it can be fixed by setting an appropriate palette in the WB's prefs, too.

DISCLAIMER: This is on an AmigaOne, and I haven't tested DPaint in depth, I don't know if there might be other issues with it.

Varthall

Last edited by Varthall on 31-Jul-2009 at 11:07 AM.
Last edited by Varthall on 31-Jul-2009 at 11:07 AM.

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: 1) The Amiga game catalogue is extensive and not limited to a 'few old games'! 2) The programs I like to use are mainly AGA apps - Deluxe Paint V, SCALA MM400, BlitzBasic2 etc.

BlitzBasic2 is a good example for old software that could benefit from the built in 68k emulator of AOS4 or MOS.

You can write RTG/AHI compatible software under BB2, the 68k emulator would run your BB2 code and when ever a system call occurs it will be done under a fast PPC OS, faster than any classic Amiga. When ever your BB2 program uses a PPC library for Sound, GFX or Datatypes it will get its data faster than on a UAE system.

cu

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Varthall

So there you have it!! If I did have £700 to burn on a Sam & OS4.1, I could use Hollywood to replace Scala, AmiBlitz instead of BlitzBasic2 and could continue to use Deluxe Paint! I don't know if this would greatly benefit me at present, but it is good to know it's an option! Is there any support for TurboPrint? That's another favourite program of mine!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

What do you use it for if not to run Classic software and AGA games?

Depends on the game. MegaBall AGA works. Taskforce works. Any other game that uses graphics/intuition should work. RTG games should work. Should. but only those that didn't hack the OS and install their own system files.

Personally I use Wordworth, IBrowse. OctaMED SS. The Maestrix works.

Quote:

I don't see what the point of this emulation support is other than to help the porting of UAE!!! A 'Universal Amiga Emululator' PORT HASN'T YET HAPPENED, so what's its use without it??

Excuse me? You really didn't know that UAE HAS BEEN COMPILED FOR AMIGAOS4? Sorry, I SHOUTED back, in case you didn't HEAR me.

BTW, we can use italics instead of shouting at each other.

Quote:

Is this JIT/interpretive Emulation going to help with ANYTHING that isn't P96 or RTG enabled? I think not!!

It's not meant to. Hyperion said they wanted to move AmigaOS and the hardware forward. Not putting all their time and effort into making it perfectly compatible with a real AmigaOS3 machine. That wasn't the point. They want to concentrate on the FUTURE.

My Amiga ad:

Marty:
"Doc! Hey Doc! It's back!"

Doc:
"What is it?"

Marty:
"The Amiga: It's back. Back for the future!"

Doc:
"Great Scot!"

Cue:
"The Power of Love" theme.

Hehehe.

Quote:

Would they work out the box on a fresh install of OS4.1 for instance?

Most well written ones will if they are installed in a proper manner.

Quote:

I'm really not seeing the 'benefit' of buying a Sam for emulation reasons! i'd be better off buying a PC and running UAE or buying a Minimig to run A500 games!!

Of course. The 'point' of AmigaOS4 isn't to run old games and software. The point is to develop the AmigaOS into the future. And somehow try and throw off the shackles of the past.

Quote:

Hold onto my Classic Hardware and make the best use of it I can & thank God daily that it still works!

A real Amiga is best for runing real Amiga software.

Quote:

Is there any support for TurboPrint? That's another favourite program of mine!

I think it can work, you just have to disable it from hacking into the OS, as per usual. Or, you could buy a new printer. Infact, what kind of printer would you need supported?

Last edited by Hypex on 31-Jul-2009 at 11:21 AM.

@Arko

Quote:

BlitzBasic2 is a good example for old software that could benefit from the built in 68k emulator of AOS4 or MOS.

Emulation is probably a bad choice of words in this context.

Last edited by itix on 31-Jul-2009 at 11:31 AM.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

Quote:

Quote: Hold onto my Classic Hardware and make the best use of it I can & thank God daily that it still works! A real Amiga is best for runing real Amiga software.

Most AGA'ECS software was written 15 or 20 years ago. If you take software written for an original 68k Mac, it will not run on an actual x86 Macs, you can install a 68k emulator from Apple but it will not work with an normal fresh bought Mac anymore.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@SinanG

Quote:

@ALL Most Ambitious Project Of Amiga Community : Making this thread the longest thread of all :)

It damn looks like you predicted absolutely right!

OldFart

_________________
More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

@OldFart

What's the boundary? 1024 posts?

BTW: You last post count matches exactly my year of birth. Thank you!

[EDIT: Birth]

Last edited by cha05e90 on 31-Jul-2009 at 11:41 AM.

_________________
X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@Arko

Quote:

If you take software written for an original 68k Mac, it will not run on an actual x86 Macs, you can install a 68k emulator from Apple but it will not work with an normal fresh bought Mac anymore.

If you can't afford a Sam & OS4.1 you really can't be buying a Unibody Mac Book Pro x86!! I still have an iBook PPC which handles 'Classic' OS 9 (and a fair few before with patches) Mac programs VERY well! I don't know about 68000 programs but early PPC programs workfine.Settlers II works flawlessly with an OS7 patch!

It is less of an issue with Mac software becuase they get yearly updates of most of their products! Turboprint was last updated in 2004/5 and AmigaWriter hasn't been updated since 2000!!!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@cha05e90

Quote:

BTW: You last post count matches exactly my year of birth. Thank you!

A coincedence applicable to my self occurred 16 postings ago...
My post count is probably in a range for this kind of coincedences. Maybe this spurs another disgression from the thread's original title? We'll notice soon enough, I fear.

OldFart

_________________
More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

@BigD

Quote:

Most people returning to the platform probably don't even know the Classic could use graphics cards, never mind actually used a RTG centric-program.

I disagree. Most people returning would either be ex-big box Amiga owners, who would be aware of things like Zorro graphics cards, or people with souped up A1200s (PPC, BVision, AteoVision, Mediator etc etc). These are the people AOS needs to target: folks who are tech-savvy, who stuck with the Amiga for a while after Commodore's collapse, and who are not afraid to spend a bit of money when they can.

IMHO, people who only over had a vanilla A500 or an A1200 with perhaps an 68030 card are unlikely to spend much cash supporting AmigaOS4 or the wider community.

_________________
Happiness is mandatory.
MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Arko I don't know about 68000 programs but early PPC programs workfine.Settlers II works flawlessly with an OS7 patch!

If Commodore Amiga had the same restrictions on programming like Apple had araound 1990, there would not be any programm accessing the hardware directly.

Every programm would use RTG and AHI and you would not ask about old AGA software.

And if Amiga would still sold as it did around 1988, you would not even ask about old software.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@yoodoo2
Quote:

IMHO, people who only over had a vanilla A500 or an A1200 with perhaps an 68030 card are unlikely to spend much cash supporting AmigaOS4 or the wider community.

Most of them where kids with no money, today they have a regular income, it would be easy for them to revive their former hobby as long as it keeps cheap..

Last edited by Arko on 31-Jul-2009 at 12:32 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Arko

From Wikipedia Regarding Classics performance on PPC Macs:


Quote:

Classic's performance is also generally acceptable, with a few exceptions. Most of an application is run directly as PowerPC code. (This is likely a major reason why Classic is not supported on Intel-based Macs.)[citation needed] Motorola 68k code is handled by the same Motorola 68LC040 emulator that Mac OS 9 uses. Some application functions are actually faster in Classic than under Mac OS 9 on equivalent hardware, due to performance improvements in the newer operating system's device drivers. These applications are largely those that use heavy disk processing, and were often quickly ported to Mac OS X by their developers. On the other hand, applications that rely on heavy processing and which did not share resources under Mac OS 9's co-operative multitasking model will be interrupted by other (non-Classic) processes under Mac OS X's preemptive multitasking. The greater processing power of most systems that run Mac OS X (compared to systems intended to run Mac OS 8 or 9) helps to mitigate the performance degradation of Classic's emulation.

So classic on Mac OS10.4 on PPC had the same Motorola 68LC040 emulator that Mac OS 9 uses, which probably ran quite fast!!

Also:

Quote:

Classic's compatibility is very good, provided the application using it does not require direct access to hardware or engage in full-screen drawing.

I suppose 68000 programs on the Mac did not need access to custom chips to the degree that Amiga 68000 programs did (generally speaking), so maybe this was easier for Apple to negate?

Also in reference to the aforementioned 68040 emulator on Wiki:

Quote:

It is thought that this aspect of the Mac OS is the first time that such a dual hardware architecture operating system had ever been successfully implemented. The first version was written by Gary Davidian, who had originally created it for use on the Motorola 88000 CPU, used in Apple's abortive first attempt at a RISC target platform.......One reason that this emulation was so successful is that many of the APIs for the Mac OS were originally implemented as traps on the 680x0 processor - calling an API actually was recognised by the 680x0 as the equivalent of an error condition, which would cause it to handle that error through one of its hardware vectors, which in turn would look up and run the operating system routine from ROM or RAM. In the emulator, such traps could be replaced by native PowerPC code, so the only code being emulated was the application itself - any system API it called could be accelerated with native PowerPC code. It also allowed Apple time to port the OS to the PowerPC

Interesting!!

Last edited by BigD on 31-Jul-2009 at 12:34 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

many rumours around. This is the second time i heard rumours about how the game are conducted. Who are the OS4 developers? Who decide the direction of the OS? Only two man? It is true that some developers have abandoned the team?

@BigD

Quote:

So classic on Mac OS10.4 on PPC had the same Motorola 68LC040 emulator that Mac OS 9 uses, which probably ran quite fast!!

A detail from the text you posted:
Quote:

Some application functions are actually faster in Classic than under Mac OS 9 on equivalent hardware,

That sound quite slow IMHO.

So using your anti Sam arguments on the Mac i could write:
"Nobody will buy a modern Mac to run Classic Mac software"




Quote:

I suppose 68000 programs on the Mac did not need access to custom chips to the degree that Amiga 68000 programs did (generally speaking), so maybe this was easier for Apple to negate?

Apple threw every developer out of their developer support, when they did not follow the design rules, there was no hardware access for user programmes, that is the reason why there where simple software emulators like shapeshifter, that could run some Mac software on a 68060 faster than a early PPC Mac could.

Another detail about Mac's 68k emulator:
Quote:

The emulator is no longer part of Mac OS X, though it remains as an integral part of the Classic environment.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_68K_emulator

Last edited by Arko on 31-Jul-2009 at 12:44 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Arko

Quote:

Most of them where kids with no money, today they have a regular income, it would be easy for them to revive their former hobby as long as it keeps cheap..

But their former hobby was (more than likely) playing games cheaply - they can do that easily under UAE or on a console of their choice. It's unlikely that many of these people will fork out for an unusual OS and outdated/underspecced apps.

The target for a desktop AmigaOS surely has to be people with a large "emotional" attachment to Amiga - ie people who upgraded their machines in the 1990s, had fun with unusual hardware and interesting software and who don't mind paying out to support their hobby.

In order to maintain a healthy community, it might make better sense to target a small market of 3,000 people ready and willing to spend cash and assist with development, than a mass market, most of whom are hangers-on or who expect Hyperion to perform miracles on their limited resources.

_________________
Happiness is mandatory.
MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

@yoodoo2

Quote:

most of whom are hangers-on or who expect Hyperion to perform miracles on their limited resources.

Ouch!! Guess you never signed up for the Commodore slogan: "Computers for the masses, not the classes!" company mantra then?

You're deluded if you think 3,000 people can sustain software development of the Amiga, never mind hardware develelopment! You'll be stuck with sub-1ghz PPC hardware for the forseeable future if you don't try and develop a machine(embedded industrial design or otherwise)/OS to target a specific MARKET!! Imagine going on dragon's den with a Sam & OS4.1!!!! Try and justify its existance! In the cold, hard light of day you've got to think of this as a business!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

when I checked last time 402 "amiga related users" on the minimig map. That is less than the company has I work for, but also 3.000 are less than that. :D

not at all an interesting market for masses. That is just something like an Extreme Hobby. Something like Basejumping for nerds.



my last and final guess, because the thread is getting boring.

The inflatable Amiga, Codename: SexDoll

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Bite Me!