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PosterThread
BigD 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 16:36:26
#861 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Hypex

Quote:
Excuse me? You really didn't know that UAE HAS BEEN COMPILED FOR AMIGAOS4? Sorry, I SHOUTED back, in case you didn't HEAR me.


Quote from 'meet.mrnrg' on thread Bounty for JIT enabled E-UAE on AmigaOS4.1 Thread

Quote:
E-UAE on AmigaOS4.1 (and MorphOS) supports only interpretive emulation and is quite slow compared to f.ex. winUAE.


What am I supposed to take from 'meet.mrnrg''s statement? That UAE on Sam works great and will meet all my classic gaming needs? No, it seems that it is slow and not able to run adequately on Sam spec hardware!

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Hypex 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 16:44:30
#862 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@yoodoo2

Quote:
IMHO, people who only over had a vanilla A500 or an A1200 with perhaps an 68030 card are unlikely to spend much cash supporting AmigaOS4 or the wider community.


People like me.

I just decieed to not upgrade from my 030 and wait for the A1 when it was announced.

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Hypex 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 16:54:10
#863 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
What am I supposed to take from 'meet.mrnrg''s statement? That UAE on Sam works great and will meet all my classic gaming needs? No, it seems that it is slow and not able to run adequately on Sam spec hardware!


So you meant a good UAE like on x86. What didn't you say so!

I haven't tested many A500 games. But they should be playable. Infact a friend a was trying out AB3DII once. Yes JIT would help but an A500 has no CPU cache which is where JIT gets it's speed. So I don't know if that affects performance.

But JIT isn't the only thing. We also need a configuration GUI, with HDF support. Even Linux has one! Infact the best UAE I ran on myt A1 was five years ago with Woody!

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Anonymous 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 16:56:11
# ]

0
0

@yoodoo2

I agree with some of what you say, but I think you're optimistic if you think that AmigaOS can even sustain a hobbyist community the way things are.

It's not like the last 7 years have seen a constant rate of development - a glance at this year's news confirms that. Many people thought that as long as new hardware came out, new software would follow, but it hasn't. The buzz aorund the Sam has been nothing like the buzz around any model of AmigaOne. The software scene is practically dead. At this rate of decline what can you expect in 7 years? Do you think your business plan would be enough to keep pace with modern computing?

Chris

 
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fairlanefastback 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 17:39:14
#865 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@all

This thread is starting to generate abuse reports.

Now I want to be clear on a couple of things. Not everyone is as savy as everyone else, not everyone is as articulate as everyone else. The Terms of Service, that which you have all agreed to follow by using this board does not require a certain level of Amiga know-how, it does not require a certain IQ score.

What it does require is that all members are told they need to be courteous to one another.

So if someone has something wrong in regard to Amiga, help out your brother/sister community member in a nice way! And if you can't then its better to say nothing than name-call. Because name calling is not going to be tolerated here.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 31-Jul-2009 at 06:07 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

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fairlanefastback 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 17:57:21
#866 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@ShadowSun

This roadmap isn't even an acurate feature set never mind a roadmap:

Quote:
68k emulation: both interpreting and JIT emulation available (see below), JIT for speed,


Why did JIT UAE never materialise on OS4.x? Hyperion were going to include it with OS4.0 and yet AmigaWorld members have started a bounty to get this finished!!! Lies, failure and lies!


Be careful throwing around the word "lies". It implies you know, with proof-in-hand that someone *intentionally* misinformed people. Its also inflammatory in general. Do you have such proof?

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

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fairlanefastback 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 18:02:32
#867 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@olegil & BigD

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@BigD

There's only one liar in this story, and that's you.

Hyperion never said anything about UAE. OS4 has both JIT and interpreting 68k emulation, EXACTLY like the document says.


Same goes here. Is BigD a liar, or is he just misinformed? Unless you have proof that he is purposely lying, then simply don't go there please.

You should BOTH take a step back, explain why you have differing opinions on this and try, through rational conversation, try to get to what the actual facts were as best you can. I am sure others can chime in with their recollections and possibly links on whatever Hyperion did or did not promise from back then. Keep it civil please.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

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BillE 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 18:31:47
#868 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Nov-2003
Posts: 1195
From: Northern Scotland

@BigD

Quote:
1) The Amiga game catalogue is extensive and not limited to a 'few old games'!


I don't play games often - but surely all those are extremely old anyway. When was the last time a new game was released for the Amiga - that isn't a port from somewhere else ?

The only point to UAE is to play SlamTilt which with GL=UAE works quite tansparently BTW.


Quote:
2) The programs I like to use are mainly AGA apps - Deluxe Paint V, SCALA MM400, BlitzBasic2 etc.


I would consider ALL of those to be totally obsolete and not even worth bothering with. They didn't even work on real Amigas once you had a graphics card installed, they are just not worth the effort.

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yoodoo2 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 19:29:37
#869 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Aug-2003
Posts: 1332
From: Stourbridge, UK

@clebin
Quote:
Do you think your business plan would be enough to keep pace with modern computing?


Ah, but my hobbyist-niche-market wouldn't necessarily need it to. A fully uptodate browser would certainly be needed (and we are closer than we have ever been with OWB) for real longevity, but most other software would be a mixture of part-time and open-source apps as it is now - hence the hobbyist part

The problem with the Sam is that, rightly or wrongly, for many it appears to be a step backwards from the AmigaOne. There are probably a few hundred A1 owners who can't justify upgrading just yet, or at least until their current machines kick the bucket.

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MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

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Arko 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 31-Jul-2009 21:41:54
#870 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:

What am I supposed to take from 'meet.mrnrg''s statement? That UAE on Sam works great and will meet all my classic gaming needs? No, it seems that it is slow and not able to run adequately on Sam spec hardware!



UAE on Sam440 and under MOS with Peg-II are faster than a 3640 in an A4000. So compared with the 68k emulator on the Mac, that was called 'quite fast' in the text you quoted and has 'nearly the power to emulate a 68LC040' the UAE on Sam440 is faster.

But I must confess, WinUAE is faster than the 68060 ever was, so tell us frankly what you want:

- if you just want something emulating the old 68k Amiga, it would be better to buy a cheap PC and install WinUAE.

- If you want to use an enhanced AmigaOS that is compatible in soft- but not in hardware, you can invest in an AOS4 or MOS system.

- If you want an Amiga like OS with CPUs over 3GHz, that has a UAE with JIT but is currently not as usable as AOS4 or MOS, you can switch to AROS.

It's your choice, nobody forces you to buy a Sam440 and maybe the future of AmigaOS does not rely on Hyperion.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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tonyw 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 5:48:06
#871 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3240
From: Sydney (of course)

@fairlanefastback

Perhaps someone should have pointed out to BigD (earlier than now) that UAE is the name of a program that runs on Linux X86 and Windows. The Linux/Windows UAE support the direct references to hardware registers ("custom chips") but at a speed penalty. That penalty is more than compensated for by the speed of the underlying X86 hardware.

On OS4.1 we have two "programs", an interpretive 68K emulator and a JIT 68K emulator. Neither has full support for "custom chip" or hardware-banging calls. By default, a 68K program runs using the JIT emulator, but some 68K games employ coding tricks that a JIT can not translate into PPC code and such programs have to be run using the interpretive emulator instead.

The two OS4.1 68K emulators perform the function called for in the original specification.

There is also a port of UAE to OS4.1 but it is less complete than the X86 versions.

Last edited by tonyw on 01-Aug-2009 at 05:52 AM.

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tony

Hyperion Support Forum: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php

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olegil 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 7:39:03
#872 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@tonyw

And while we're at it, maybe tell both meet.mrng and BigD that putting JIT in EUAE for OS4 wouldn't help that much since the applications you can't run OS4.1 out of the box are tied to the chipset and most games/demos tied to the chipset require the chipset timing to be right.

As in, whenever you need to use the "cycle exact" option in UAE, JIT is going to increase the speed by 0%. For some reason ALL the games I play in UAE requires this setting.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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BillE 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 8:49:29
#873 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Nov-2003
Posts: 1195
From: Northern Scotland

@BigD

Quote:
Of course not! It is just extremely frustrating to own PPC hardware faster than *any Amiga compatible hardware* ever sold (an iBook 933Mhz)


Shows how much you actually know then, my 1.26GHz AMIGA ONE is faster than that !

I really do not think I would want to downgrade to 933MHZ iBook

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BigD 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 9:30:23
#874 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@BillE

Yeah. well getting a broken A1 G4 CPU replaced with a 1.26 Ghz one is/was an option for A1 users, it is not an option for new users!!! I was talking about available Sam hardware running at 750Mhz maximum without Altivec!

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BigD 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 9:41:44
#875 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@BillE

Quote:
The only point to UAE is to play SlamTilt which with GL=UAE works quite tansparently BTW.


Is this on the PC or Sam? I love Slamtilt!

Does UAE have a more complete version for the Mac (PPC) or the Sam? There's no way I'm buying a PC so that's out of the question! I guess I really want to try and justify purchasing the Sam Flex 750Mhz but I'm really struggling to see the unique selling point features! For the Sam hardware seems LESS compatible with Classic games than a PC with UAE!!!! Surely this must change!

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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BigD 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 9:49:19
#876 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Arko

Quote:
If you want to use an enhanced AmigaOS that is compatible in soft- but not in hardware, you can invest in an AOS4 or MOS system.


I guess that's what I want, but I find the limited ability of the Sam UAE port disturbing for the cost of the equipment! I'm sure a lot of people feel the same!

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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minator 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 14:09:41
#877 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

I've been following his thread but haven't commented for a bit.

For the Amiga to become a self-sustaining platform again it needs to grow, the problem right now is the user base is shrinking.

The reason for the shrinkage is that the OS is tied to a relatively expensive custom platform with all the raw computing power of a 2001 vintage iMac G3.

The problem isn't the power though or the PPC processor. There are better PPCs around and more on the way e.g. the IBM 476 has AltiVec and runs up to 1.6GHz. That it's not designed for the desktop is completely irrelevant.

No, the problem is the price. It it severely restricting the number of users.
While you have to make custom boards in small numbers you're basically stuffed, it is not economically sustainable.

What you really need is to find a lower priced PPC board that has everything you need, there's probably plenty out there you just need to find them. If you're lucky maybe one of the PPC companies will do a "beagleboard", i.e. make a cheap dev board.

You could port to a different PPC platform. PPC Macs are cheap but are no longer being made and are somewhat lacking on documentation. Alternately there is the PS3 which is being made in volume but doesn't give you access to the GPU, however there is plenty of documentation and you can work around the GPU problem by using an SPE to do graphics.
On the other hand the PS3 gives you access to a market with millions of potential users. And yes there are people out there who are interested (see last line).

The only other alternative is to port to a different processor, that gives you access to much better / cheaper platforms but without an emulator will leave you will little or no software.


---


To sum up the problem I'll give you an example of your target market: Me.
I am an ex-Amiga user, I have several copies of Amiga Forever and I have 3 classic machines.

I do not have an OS4 or MOS machine and while I have to spend several hundreds to get one that's not going to change. I'm not prepared to spend a lot on something that will really not be much more than a toy to me.

I'd consider spending £200 on a netbook though, when the ARM ones appear I'll probably get one to run Haiku. It'll also runs on my Mac in a virtual machine or on my existing netbook. Haiku is a remarkably Amiga like OS that has all the modern features the Amiga should have and is just as responsive but costs £0.00. There's a lot of competition out there and Amiga is not as unique as you might think.

What you need is something that can convince me to open my wallet, while I have to spend hundreds I'm not prepared to do that.

BTW this all also all applies to MorphOS.

Last edited by minator on 01-Aug-2009 at 02:11 PM.

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Fab 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 14:22:00
#878 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

What am I supposed to take from 'meet.mrnrg''s statement? That UAE on Sam works great and will meet all my classic gaming needs? No, it seems that it is slow and not able to run adequately on Sam spec hardware!


However, on Pegasos2 (at least on MorphOS), UAE is able to run the vast majority of games (including aga) at full speed (the exceptions being quite "recent" games like microcosm, napalm and a couple others). So JIT would only help for a couple cpu-demanding games and applications that rely on chipset (there are definitely not a lot of them). Demos also fit in that category, but that's it.

JIT is really not *that* needed, in my opinion.

Last edited by Fab on 01-Aug-2009 at 02:23 PM.

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minator 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 14:24:42
#879 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

As for Hyperion's super secret ambitious project I think I've sussed it:

According to the features list ExecSG has memory protection and SMP support built in but they're not active. I think they're going to activate them.

There are theories around of how memory protection can be added to AmigaOS, there's the OSX / MOS "boxed" approach or the lesser known "fake OS structures" approach. I think the latter is being used.

Amiga can't use memory protection because the apps write into OS memory, data structures etc. The idea of the "fake OS structures" approach is the the App runs in it's own memory area and private OS structures are built on the fly for that app. The app thinks it is writing into OS memory as usual but actually it's not.

I don't know the details of how something like this would work but it will require an additional overhead. I guess new APIs could also be added that would fix that though for anyone developing current software.

If that's what they're up to, it certainly is ambitious...

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BillE 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 1-Aug-2009 15:01:55
#880 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Nov-2003
Posts: 1195
From: Northern Scotland

@BigD

> Is this on the PC or Sam? I love Slamtilt!

On the A1 using E_UAE and GL-UAE to run it from a normal icon rather than have to actually start E-UAE manually.

So it should easily be playable on a SAM too. Probably my favourite Amiga game of all time I think and the only old one I still do play now and again. Though the ability to play it should not be a major deciding factor in whether you decide to get a SAM or not

I don't have a PC either btw, I wouldn't give one the desk space.


Bill.

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