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      /  the secret project of Hyperion
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PosterThread
minator 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 13:05:02
#901 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@QuikSanz

Quote:
So you think development should stop immediately for two or three years to make it X86 compatible?


In 2-3 years Hyperion might go bankrupt.

Quote:
Kill it all. Full Stop. NO.


A distinct possibility without a port to a lower cost platform.


It doesn't have to be x86, it could be Mac mini or PS3.
I'd prefer a port to ARM myself, but I'm biased

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paolone 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 13:50:10
#902 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@Wildstar128

Quote:
Making an AmigaOS 4.x for x86 shouldn't be that hard.


Yes, yes, right. Why don't you tell this to AROS developers, which are working on the AmigaOS re-implementation since 1995, and they're not finished yet?

Hyperion would have the original sources, and this would be a good starting point, but please be aware of the fact that many parts of it sould be completely rewritten, others must be changed and, last but not least, you WON'T get 68K integration like on PPC, since the X86 family processes data with different endianess (and when applications interact, they simply can't know if two bytes should be either swapped or not).

Quote:
Choose a common nVidia or ATI video card and make a standard nVidia support driver that would work on a number of nVidia card for PCI-X. Make a AmigaOS equivelent of Windows XPs generic SVGA video driver that works with various standard SVGA video modes and color depth that works on virtually every video cards


If it would have been so easy, maybe they had already done that long ago. And, honestly, what you ask for already exists and its name is AROS. Doing what you ask is only scraping the surface, then you have to go in a DEEP development hell, keeping in mind that whatever PC hardware spec you decide to support today... it will be mortally obsolete the day you'll end the job. Video cards life in the PC world is 2 years. Then a complete new technology replaces them, and you have also some problem finding them on the market. Amiga development tipically needs AGES to be completed.

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A3000T 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 14:29:13
#903 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 7-Nov-2003
Posts: 633
From: the Netherlands

@BigD

> I guess I really want to try and justify purchasing the Sam Flex 750Mhz but
> I'm really struggling to see the unique selling point features!

The selling points for the SAM hardware are:
-it is small, so it uses only a small space on your desk
-it has passive cooling, so no noisy fans are needed
-it has low power requirements

> For the Sam hardware seems LESS compatible with Classic games than a PC with
> UAE!!!! Surely this must change!

The vast majority of classic games do not benefit from faster hardware (or a faster emulator). For example, an A4000/060 is about 100 times faster than an unexpanded A500. But if you want to play games like "Lemmings" or "Emerald Mine" it doesn't matter. Both will be fast enough. The same can be said for UAE on a PC vs UAE on a SAM; Both will be fast enough for most classic games.

Kind regards,

Dennis

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A3000T 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 15:26:17
#904 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 7-Nov-2003
Posts: 633
From: the Netherlands

@rigo

> The SAM board is not a Mac, and OS4.1 runs on it.
> You want AmigaOS, you buy SAM. Simple!
>
> Which bit of "an x86 port is not on the cards" did you not understand?
>
> If you want the OS, you buy the hardware, it's always been this way.

But there also was a choise between a cheap but slow Amiga (like the A500 or A1200) and a much faster one with lots of expansion options (like the A3000 or A4000).

The SAM has its good points, but it also has a major problem: The CPU is very slow by todays standards. It is too slow for some things I want a computer to do. In the m68k era I could buy an A4000 if the A1200 wasn't fast enough for me. Now it is SAM or nothing. It is disapointing to see that after all these years, the fastest hardware OS4 runs on are still the AmigaOne and PegasosII.

I hope this "secret project" will change that.


Kind regards,

Dennis

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Al4 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 16:23:13
#905 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2008
Posts: 339
From: Unknown


A problem with porting to x86 is that there are many different variations on video, network and sound cards, so it will take much longer to support them, and they are always changing.

A port to PS3 is much more desirable, at least short term. There is only one set of devices used, so they only have to support these. They have already got it working, I think. But I doubt this would take so many months.

How about they have teamed up with some company to put it onto a phone or pda?


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ne_one 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 17:46:58
#906 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@Al4

Quote:
A problem with porting to x86 is that there are many different variations on video, network and sound cards, so it will take much longer to support them, and they are always changing.


That argument always has been and always will be, patently ridiculous. Clearly if you limit the list of compatible devices it's not an issue, particularly if you target one manufacturer and select a desktop and laptop.

And of course the one area that everyone conveniently keeps ignoring is virtualization.

Get the OS running on widely available, powerful, inexpensive platforms and optimized drivers (and new software) will appear.

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ne_one 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 17:56:38
#907 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@paolone

Quote:
Hyperion would have the original sources, and this would be a good starting point, but please be aware of the fact that many parts of it sould be completely rewritten, others must be changed and, last but not least, you WON'T get 68K integration like on PPC, since the X86 family processes data with different endianess (and when applications interact, they simply can't know if two bytes should be either swapped or not).


Good grief.

If you need compatibility with hardware and software from before 1995 then ebay is the solution. And that endian orientation argument has been done to death. It's simply an inconvience not a deterrent. Certainly not something that would require 7 years to overcome, let alone 7 weeks.

The real problem is that time (and apparently $2 million) has been spent on migration to the PPC and feature creep while the OS should have been rearchitected from scratch to be platform agnostic and based on a Linux core.

Most software is designed with sales volume in mind. What path the development of the Amiga OS is following remains a mystery.

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OldFart 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 18:29:20
#908 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@ne_one

Quote:
What path the development of the Amiga OS is following remains a mystery.

Hence he title of this thread:the secret project of Hyperion

OldFart

N.b.: and up goes my counter. Whom's year of birth does it reflect this time?

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 18:29:31
#909 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

Quote:
Hyperion has less resources Apple had, but maybe Hyperion is already working on a Linux ( Unix, BSD, ... ) hosted AOS4 version, that would make a port very easy, maybe 2 years instead of 3 years. But I don't think there will be much resources left to do any AOS4 enhancements or bug fixes in the meantime ... .. in 2-3 years AROS may be much more usable than any x86 AOS4, AOS4 could only lose against its Amiga competitors.



The problem is we have no roadmap to where we will be in 2-3 years.


If they stay with PPC where are moving forward to?
What PPC hardware can we expect to be using in 2 to 3 years?
Will I be able to use an Amiga laptop in 2012?
Will we finally break the 2GHZ barrier and I can do things like watch a movie?
How much will the new hardware cost?

And biggest, what plans on how will we get any more users?


I hear a lot of "Hyperion doesn't have the resources" and "Hyperion will go bankrupt in 2 years if they port it"....

So if we just stay with PPC how is that going to help them financially? How can they sell any more copies of AmigaOS? There can't be many of elite left to spend $1000 for 600mhz hardware/OS.



As far as this, it's so hard to port to x86 just look at AROS. You really believe that creating a brand new OS from scratch is just plain harder to impliment on x86 vs some other CPU? I doubt it.





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Al4 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 18:59:37
#910 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2008
Posts: 339
From: Unknown

Maybe this project is something that will help bring in the money. 3000 users isn't very much. Surely it is hardware. Or software related to making it available to more.
They were going to work on kernel in the future (Ars). Maybe they are putting OS4 userland over a kernel that exists on x86, not just ppc, eg QNX (micro unlike linux)

How does virtulization work? Would that be a long task? That's also what OS5 is claimed to be using.

Last edited by Al4 on 02-Aug-2009 at 07:01 PM.

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Leo 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 19:02:49
#911 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

As far as this, it's so hard to port to x86 just look at AROS. You really believe that creating a brand new OS from scratch is just plain harder to impliment on x86 vs some other CPU? I doubt it.

Maybe it could have been made faster than AROS ?
Looks like to me the project had periods where it was quite dead... Some developers have left the project, and so on... Lots of people lost interest since recently.

Looking at how it took AROS to come the way it is now isn't a good indicator I think.

The same goes for the time it took hyperion to have a working OS on PPC...

But one thing is sure: using an x86 would allow developers to concentrate on software instead of spending their time debugging hardware: that's what happened with PPC...

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marko 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 19:58:49
#912 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Dec-2007
Posts: 1816
From: Gothenburg, THE front side of Sweden ;), (via Finland), EU

@thread

Here's some more flesh

Quote:
HyperionMP wrote:

Nonetheless AmigaOS 4.x development is proceeding all the time and very nicely with several very major milestones within reach in Q4 of 2009.

Reference

_________________
AmigaOS 4.1 FEu2 on Sam440ep-flex 800MHz 1GB RAM
C128, A500+, A1200, A1200/40, AmigaForever 2008+09+16, 5 x86/x64 boxes
Still waiting (or dreaming) for the Amiga revolution...
m4rko.com/AMIGA

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QuikSanz 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 20:32:20
#913 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@marko

No, don't feed the animals. Ah, now you've done it.

Chris

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minator 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 20:42:02
#914 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@ne_one

Quote:
That argument always has been and always will be, patently ridiculous. Clearly if you limit the list of compatible devices it's not an issue, particularly if you target one manufacturer and select a desktop and laptop.


It's a perfectly valid argument, hardware in the PC world changes very rapidly. Even if you limit what you support you'll get a couple of years out of it before it gets replaced and you need new drivers again.

That's why I think ARM is a better target, they have everything on one chip, they're cheap and sold for years.

Quote:
And of course the one area that everyone conveniently keeps ignoring is virtualization.


Good point. However it's slower and you still need drivers. It would be a very good transition point though and useful to let people try the OS. Hmm, can AROS run under virtualisation?

Quote:
Get the OS running on widely available, powerful, inexpensive platforms and optimized drivers (and new software) will appear.


Well, they don't just appear, someone has to write them.

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marko 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 20:49:04
#915 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Dec-2007
Posts: 1816
From: Gothenburg, THE front side of Sweden ;), (via Finland), EU

@QuikSanz

Oops, sorry.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.1 FEu2 on Sam440ep-flex 800MHz 1GB RAM
C128, A500+, A1200, A1200/40, AmigaForever 2008+09+16, 5 x86/x64 boxes
Still waiting (or dreaming) for the Amiga revolution...
m4rko.com/AMIGA

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Wildstar128 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 20:56:06
#916 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@QuikSanz

Quote:

QuikSanz wrote:
@Wildstar128

What makes you think OS4.1 is ready to take on the big OS? Much needs to be done first.




It's not ready to take on the big OS? What does that have to do with wanting to run AmigaOS4 on fast and more affordable hardware.

AmigaOS is a hobby OS. There's no competing with other OSes. Let's just do what we want with our OS. Lets not charge each other $1000 just to use it. How can we all contribute and grow at least a little with $1000 entry point. A few select will use it and it will continue to die.

Stop worrying about other OSes guys.




You don't charge money for hobbies. Making demos and games for C64 is a hobby. Making money on it is business. When you bring money into the game then it's a business. If you want it to be a hobby then it as to be free. I don't charge money for hobby work. I can't sell hobby work. If I can't make money making games for a hobby because NO ONE will pay money for games made for a hobby - why should an OS cost money?

When you are in business to make money - be a business. Why should an OS be just a hobby? Why was AmigaOS made in the first place?

Now to QuickSanz's statements - - next message by me.

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 02-Aug-2009 at 09:07 PM.
Last edited by Wildstar128 on 02-Aug-2009 at 09:05 PM.

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Wildstar128 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 21:03:59
#917 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@QuikSanz

Quote:

QuikSanz wrote:
@Wildstar128

What makes you think OS4.1 is ready to take on the big OS? Much needs to be done first.
Cairo is now supported and more to come hopefully. Java is needed.

To drop all of this to fix the "endian" thing and do another port to something so different would kill it/us/ them. Stop.

Chris



Don't stop the others. Do them all and work harder. Stop spending on 2 hours a week on Amiga. Put a few more hours in. Like 2 Hrs a day. Ok, I know some work harder and there are some that works in short bursts. Maybe on one 3-day weekend or on a paid week off will spend several hours a day but when you add all the hours up and then divide it by the hours in a year and do the math - it averages out to maybe 2-6 hrs a week.

If you want something bad enough and the drive then put in 2 hours each day during the work days (regular job days you work) and put in 6-8 hours on your days off. Put the time in... if you are at all PASSIONATE about the Amiga platform. The Amiga is what you put into it.

It is not what the Amiga can do for you. It is what you can do for the Amiga. Ok - AmigaOS. If this is your favorite OS then make it something you want to use all the time for all your computing needs.

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TheMaskedMuchacho 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 21:21:33
#918 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Feb-2006
Posts: 341
From: Unknown

@Wildstar128

Quote:
If you want something bad enough and the drive then put in 2 hours each day during the work days (regular job days you work) and put in 6-8 hours on your days off. Put the time in... if you are at all PASSIONATE about the Amiga platform. The Amiga is what you put into it. It is not what the Amiga can do for you. It is what you can do for the Amiga. Ok - AmigaOS. If this is your favorite OS then make it something you want to use all the time for all your computing needs.


I dont think its very fair of you to tell the amiga os developers to put more time into it, im sure they put all the time they can afford/ are paid for/ want to in to it as it is, i think that you really meant

"It is not what the Amiga can do for you. It is what you can do for the AROS"

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 22:02:19
#919 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@Wildstar128

Quote:

You don't charge money for hobbies.



OK Now that we established AmigaOS4 is not a hobby OS then what kind of business sense does it make to not port to cheaper more modern hardware?


I mean the the iPhone currently is 800MHZ, the fastest Amiga desktop right now is 733mhz SAM Flex!


It's over $700(us) for just the motherboard. The iPhone comes with an OS! Screen, storage, GPS, wireless technologies, etc etc... For a fraction of the price.


No roadmap.
Crazy prices.
Utterly outdated desktop hardware.
No portable in sight.


It seems to me Hyperion are trying to be a Hardware/Software company.


We need to break away from the hardware. It's ironic that Amiga started failing because the state of the art hardware was keeping us behind, acting like an anchor as modern tech moved ahead.

Now were still tied to old hardware, but with no good reason.

Last edited by AmigaHeretic on 02-Aug-2009 at 10:03 PM.
Last edited by AmigaHeretic on 02-Aug-2009 at 10:03 PM.

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A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
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QuikSanz 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 22:32:41
#920 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@AmigaHeretic

Hyperion HAS a road map, they are just not sharing it with us ATM.

Chris

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