@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: Like I said, Stephen is fairly confident that he can boost the performance of DvPlayer on the SAM boards. But hey, I know that won't stop people like you from scoffing at it. I don't care if he's confident or not: so many things (be it software, or hardware), have been announced, or said possible, because x, or y was *confident*... and were actually simple words and never made it that I don't care about that.

And now we're back to crucifying people for announcing stuff. Here I was thinking that everyone was angry about the lack of announcements. Ooh look, you've selectively quoted me too so that it looks worse.

Stephen has an established track record which makes me think that he could achieve a boost in performance.

Hans

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@Hans

Quote:

Show me the money for the port that will cover the 2-3 years that keeps on being brought up!

I think this whole community had learned not to fall for pre-paid anything. Show us the product will show you the money.


Seriously though. So Hyperion has no money to port the OS? So what, were stuck again with our OS being controlled by and almost bankrupt company?


Question1:

It's August 2009. Where do "you" so future sells of AmigaOS4 coming from and how many?


Question2:
If there was magically, right now, #1. A Sam_x86 board for < $200 and AmigaOS4 for it, do you think there would be 'any' sales?


Question3:
Do you think we could get more new developers to try out AmigaOS4 when, A. they have powerful hardware at decent prices or B. Slow hardware at expensive prices, but a few extra features in the OS?

Last edited by AmigaHeretic on 03-Aug-2009 at 10:50 PM.

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@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote: @Hans Quote: Both MorphOS and AROS are competing products. Letting them know exactly what's planned for the next 2-3 years would give them ample time to decide how to counter. I hope your just being sarcastic? There is no market for MOS, they would have hit critical mass long ago if there was. They consider it a hobby OS and chosen to live off of out of production, second or third hand hardware. AROS which has both OS4 and MOS devs, has it's own share of development issues with zero management to guide them. There is no phantom competitor lurking in the dark ready to leap ahead of Evert and Ben's subcontractors.

Actually I wasn't being sarcastic. The impression that I get from you is that you think that OS4 also has no market, just like MOS. In which case we're still working with rival products in a similar situation. If I were working on MOS, and I heard that a rival system was going to implement a particular feature 2-3 years from now, I'd certainly start looking at how I could beat them to it.

The part of that post that you didn't quote was the most important part. For those who missed it: "The biggest reason for not publishing a public roadmap is because it will be picked to pieces by this community."

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

Quote: AmigaHeretic wrote: @Hans [quote]Show me the money for the port that will cover the 2-3 years that keeps on being brought up! I think this whole community had learned not to fall for pre-paid anything. Show us the product will show you the money.

I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT PREPAYING FOR ANYTHING! Talk about taking words and twisting them.


Quote:

Seriously though. So Hyperion has no money to port the OS? So what, were stuck again with our OS being controlled by and almost bankrupt company?

I didn't say that either. I'm asking people where the money to pay developers from over the year or two that such a port would take and no-one has even attempted to answer that. All I get are silly questions like these The size of such a porting project and lack of revenue during that time is such that simply being financially in the black is not good enough. You need serious capital.


Quote:

Question1: It's August 2009. Where do "you" so future sells of AmigaOS4 coming from and how many?

I am not Hyperion. I do not know what their plans are. I do know that they have given this serious thought, and have a plan. The last time that I tried to give a few ideas of what might be possible you accused me of "making a lot of assumptions." That's not happening again.


Quote:

Question2: If there was magically, right now, #1. A Sam_x86 board for < $200 and AmigaOS4 for it, do you think there would be 'any' sales?

Obviously yes, but it's not going to magically happen.

Quote:

Question3: Do you think we could get more new developers to try out AmigaOS4 when, A. they have powerful hardware at decent prices or B. Slow hardware at expensive prices, but a few extra features in the OS?

Obviously A, but show me the money that will get us to your darn x86 port, seeing as you assume that this is the only way that this would be possible.

Let us use an example from the medical world. I might have discovered a drug that cures cancer, and would make me a billionaire if I developed it into a product and sold it. However, unless I have the billion dollars that it takes to get through the clinical trials and approval process, it's not going to happen. Unless I can secure that billion dollars, it won't happen. Likewise, talking about all the customers that you could get if you just ported to x86 is of no use if you don't have the resources to get there.

Hans

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http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote: @AmigaHeretic Quote: I think this whole community had learned not to fall for pre-paid anything. Show us the product will show you the money. I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT PREPAYING FOR ANYTHING! Talk about taking words and twisting them.

Whoa!! First the pre-paid thing was a joke, you know 'cause there been so little trust around here that people now so skeptical when they here anything. (Something I think is happening to the Natami people. )

That's why I started my next sentence with "Seriously though.."


Look, I'm trying to have a dialog about the merrits of going x86. Yes it will cost money. This is something for Hyperion to decide not us. Were just people on a forum we don't get to tell them what to do. I don't suggest that. But if they know there are enough people out there that maybe an x86 would be something a good thing "to" spend money on then good.

Hyperion are a company. I don't know why everyone here assumes they are broke. They've had no problem with lawsuit, no problem porting AmigaOS4 to all the SAMS, PegII etc.

Hyperion are a company if they see x86 as a place to make more sales good.

x86 version does mean the PPC version will die. If you people think that then they think that because there are so many benefits over PPC that that version would dwindle. But if they think that then well what sense does it make to continue PPC.

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
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Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

@Hans

Quote:

Actually I wasn't being sarcastic. The impression that I get from you is that you think that OS4 also has no market, just like MOS. In which case we're still working with rival products in a similar situation.

To be rivals, there has to be something to be gained above the other. Exactly what is there to be gained? That brings back the old red vs blue vs black days that no one wants to see repeated. I highly doubt anyone in MOS give's a rat's rear end where OS4 goes to. AROS has OS4 devs, think they are going to be traitors or something?

And as for the question is there a market, please educate me on where I am wrong by quoting order volumes.

Quote:

The part of that post that you didn't quote was the most important part. For those who missed it: "The biggest reason for not publishing a public roadmap is because it will be picked to pieces by this community."

I did not quote that because I have no issue with that statement on it as I agree with you. What I didn't agree with you is this absurd red vs blue vs black mentality as if there was still a piece of rotting flesh to fight over like there was eight years ago. That's all gone and the only thing left is wait for the bones to fossilize in the history of the desktop.

_________________
Dammy

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote: @Hans Quote: Actually I wasn't being sarcastic. The impression that I get from you is that you think that OS4 also has no market, just like MOS. In which case we're still working with rival products in a similar situation. To be rivals, there has to be something to be gained above the other. Exactly what is there to be gained?

If I were trying to increase the customer base for a product, then I would work hard to differentiate it from the closest similar products, both commercial and open-source. I'd try to provide something that is better, more interesting, more intuitive to use, etc., whatever it takes to stick out from the noise so that it's my product that people notice and want.

Quote:

That brings back the old red vs blue vs black days that no one wants to see repeated. I highly doubt anyone in MOS give's a rat's rear end where OS4 goes to. AROS has OS4 devs, think they are going to be traitors or something?

You know, it is possible to be nice to each other and still compete. We've seen similar features appear first in one OS, and then in the other shortly afterward, so don't tell me that the devs aren't watching what each other are doing. If anything, if one OS is touting a fancy new feature, other devs would want to match/beat it just for kicks.

Quote:

And as for the question is there a market, please educate me on where I am wrong by quoting order volumes.

Exactly where am I supposed to get those figures from?

Hans

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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

Quote: AmigaHeretic wrote: I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT PREPAYING FOR ANYTHING! Talk about taking words and twisting them. Whoa!! First the pre-paid thing was a joke, you know 'cause there been so little trust around here that people now so skeptical when they here anything. (Something I think is happening to the Natami people. )

Fair enough. I'm having my words twisted a lot at the moment, so please excuse my irritability.

Quote:

Look, I'm trying to have a dialog about the merrits of going x86. Yes it will cost money. This is something for Hyperion to decide not us. Were just people on a forum we don't get to tell them what to do. I don't suggest that. But if they know there are enough people out there that maybe an x86 would be something a good thing "to" spend money on then good.

This dialog has been repeated over and over ad nauseum. The pros, cons, and reasons why it isn't feasible have been covered often enough.

Quote:

Hyperion are a company. I don't know why everyone here assumes they are broke. They've had no problem with lawsuit, no problem porting AmigaOS4 to all the SAMS, PegII etc.

Not being broke is not the same as having bags of money.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 03-Aug-2009 at 11:59 PM.

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Surely ARM would increase potential userbase? Cheap and available.

an OS on PPC with after thought ports to other cpus represents true value.

Proof is in the pudding later this year.

Is the emphasis on PPC or other cpus or what?

@TheKorn

Works out at just under £665. (Just over 780 Euros)
I too would be very happy to pay that if it ran OS4.

_________________
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@Al4

ARM is better option than Sam...

x86 is better option than Sam

Sam is better option than 68k amigas


Arm is new ppc in way and will be pricey just like sam but Arm is not for desktop.
but PPC does well on Desktops but it has been discontinued by market so there's no future in PPC world any longer.

@all
We all here as Amiga fans who was here most & all the times & seen bad very very bad times are beloved Amiga Had to go and we are here arguing becouse we do care as community and want to take care of tomorrow from today.

So stop getting on are way & try to divert as to different direction that worked for years but not any more So please if you believ PPC not dead than be happy you got AmigaOS4 and why do you care about x86 port and we who thinks there is a safe & secure market in x86 HW for are beloved amiga. ->>and there is nothing wrong with that & that dont mean end of the world to ppc amiga os users.


thanks..

Last edited by serk118 on 04-Aug-2009 at 01:44 AM.

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@Hans

Quote:

If I were trying to increase the customer base for a product, then I would work hard to differentiate it from the closest similar products, both commercial and open-source. I'd try to provide something that is better, more interesting, more intuitive to use, etc., whatever it takes to stick out from the noise so that it's my product that people notice and want.

I'll bite, exactly what would be added that isn't already available in either existing closed or open source OSs? Couple of thousand customer base for any OS that is not enterprise level is not economically viable.

Quote:

You know, it is possible to be nice to each other and still compete. We've seen similar features appear first in one OS, and then in the other shortly afterward, so don't tell me that the devs aren't watching what each other are doing. If anything, if one OS is touting a fancy new feature, other devs would want to match/beat it just for kicks.

What is there to compete against? Bragging rights? There is no viable market place for old school OS. Who wants a OS that will crash on a application failure? Who wants a OS based on a has-been arch that is awfully expensive that only the rich can afford? Acube is not going out to buy multi-million dollar manufacturing sites to handle the demand should tell you something.

Quote:

Exactly where am I supposed to get those figures from?

Your stating there is a market out there, I'm asking you to back that claim up. I'll point to A1 sales and Peg sales that there is no such thing. I would be greatly surprised to hear that SAM440 sales were above 500 and I suspect it'll be closer to under 300.

_________________
Dammy

@damocles

I knew that I should have stopped looking at this thread.

Quote:

damocles wrote: @Hans Quote: If I were trying to increase the customer base for a product, then I would work hard to differentiate it from the closest similar products, both commercial and open-source. I'd try to provide something that is better, more interesting, more intuitive to use, etc., whatever it takes to stick out from the noise so that it's my product that people notice and want. I'll bite, exactly what would be added that isn't already available in either existing closed or open source OSs? Couple of thousand customer base for any OS that is not enterprise level is not economically viable.

No idea. I'm not Hyperion. I'm talking about the principles here, and you're just nitpicking and twisting everything that I say into something else. This is basic business 101 stuff, not a complete business plan.

Quote:

Quote: You know, it is possible to be nice to each other and still compete. We've seen similar features appear first in one OS, and then in the other shortly afterward, so don't tell me that the devs aren't watching what each other are doing. If anything, if one OS is touting a fancy new feature, other devs would want to match/beat it just for kicks. What is there to compete against? Bragging rights? There is no viable market place for old school OS. Who wants a OS that will crash on a application failure? Who wants a OS based on a has-been arch that is awfully expensive that only the rich can afford? Acube is not going out to buy multi-million dollar manufacturing sites to handle the demand should tell you something.

And here is why this "discussion" is pointless. You're going from the position that there is no market and never will be. Thus everything anyone else says that assumes otherwise is wrong. I am not Hyperion. I don't know the sales figures, or exactly what their plans are. However, if they thought that there was no market then they would have packed up and left by now.

If their really is no market, then yes, you're completely right. On the other hand, if there is a market, then it does pay to differentiate yourself from any product that is similar, no matter how pathetic you personally think that those other products may be (note: this does not reflect my personal opinion of either MOS or AROS).

Quote:

Quote: Exactly where am I supposed to get those figures from? Your stating there is a market out there, I'm asking you to back that claim up. I'll point to A1 sales and Peg sales that there is no such thing. I would be greatly surprised to hear that SAM440 sales were above 500 and I suspect it'll be closer to under 300.

I'm making no claims at all as to the size of the market. As I stated above, I expect there to be some sort of market, or Hyperion would have packed up and left by now.

To make things as clear as possible for you:
- I am not Hyperion
- I am not privy to their roadmap or business plans (although I do know a bit more than others here)
- I am not privy to their sales figures
- I am not privy to what hardware is coming, future pricing or anything like that
- If an x86 port really is the only way to achieve sustainable sales then, IMHO, it's over. Please pack up and go home.
- I do know that there are things underway, there is a roadmap, and Hyperion knows far more about the hardware situation than we do

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 04-Aug-2009 at 02:27 AM.

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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

Hans seems to be the only one talking any sense here, he is a very patient man, i gave up long ago.

I think the main problem with peoples thinking is they assume the SAM and any future hardware is aimed only at them and the rest of this tiny community, the same for OS4.x. any company that based its whole business on selling only to a few thousand people most of whom could not justify the expense so they may sell to only a 3rd of the already tiny market would not be a business that would be around long, once people have bought they are not likely to buy again obviously, hyperion can charge for OS updates but most people won't keep paying ¤100 every year for their hobby and people are unlikely to buy your almost identical motherboard with the video chipset removed and a few more pci slots (i'm not mocking Acube or hyperion for this, just pointing out how people's views of the market are unrealistic)

I think there must be a large customer or at least talks with a large customer to make all the investment worth while, just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. there could be thousands of SAMs running OS4 (or maybe linux) out there doing something behind the scenes. I am pretty sure both Acube and hyperion are targeting a much bigger market than this community, i have no idea where or what the use is but i know it has to be a priority. So unless there is a HUGE customer wanting OS4 on x86 its not going to happen.

Amiga OS is controlled by companies who use PowerPC and i'm sure they have good reason for it to be that way, they know more about the market than any of us so if there was a good reason to switch to x86 i'm sure they would do it, thinking they can sell a few thousand copies to us lot isn't going to convince them though.

There is a chance they are all mad and deliberately do what they can to throw away money but then they would be throwing it all at porting to every architecture available and we would all be running OS4 on our C-One's and Acorn A3010's


sorry if my rants are disjointed and hard to read, dyslexia makes getting what's in my head in to words on a page (or screen) and reading it back to proof read is no help. Hope you can make some sense of it all

_________________

@TheMaskedMuchacho

My patience has now run out.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

Hello Everybody

It was very interesting to read all the diffrent approaches about the future...

Reading all the ideas about new Processors, Prices, Ports and so on.... I remembered a new Gadget called Pandora:

http://www.openpandora.org/index_en.php


Please don't take this post to serious. It was only my first thought when i read all your post - the pandora would be great for Amiga OS 4.x

Thanks to all, writing that much ideas and informations in this forum - i really appreciate this.

Birbo

_________________
Sometimes we give people a lot of credit just because they’re writing nice sentences even if it isn’t adding up to much.

@Hans

Quote:

I'm asking people where the money to pay developers from over the year or two that such a port would take

One of the Frieden brothers once estimated that a basic port to x86 would take about 6 months, twice as long as porting it to a new PPC chipset.

IMO it's more than worth it..

Quote:

The part of that post that you didn't quote was the most important part. For those who missed it: "The biggest reason for not publishing a public roadmap is because it will be picked to pieces by this community."

In the past, every companies (including them iirc) published unrealistic and false roadmaps ("OS4 is scheduled and rockin' !") and of course, where picked to pieces, since this was far from being real.

Guess it's easy for them not to have one... But then it's difficult to know where you are heading at.

It's also easy to say "we're working on our most ambitious project ever", and then disappoint... It's more difficult to say the same, and come with something really, really "ambitious"...

Btw, you are all thinking about material project: new OS, new hardware, new features in the OS, new applications,... what if it was not some material, but had something to do with the trial ? like taking over AInc: would that be "ambitious" ?

Now, a question I already asked in the past still has no answer:

What market are they targetting with OS4 ?

Desktop ? Server ? Embbed ? Phone ? Nostalgic people ? Die-hard fans ?

Last edited by Leo on 04-Aug-2009 at 08:32 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 04-Aug-2009 at 08:31 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 04-Aug-2009 at 08:28 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 04-Aug-2009 at 08:27 AM.

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@rigo

Quote:

The plain answer to that is "No". The project is underway, regardless of how many thousands of forum posts there will be pleading for a port to x86.

Now that was an interesting comment. Given the question didn't mention x86 specifically. But was brought into it.

So even if that was it, no matter how much x86 support there was, you guys wouldn't even know!

@Hans

Quote:

Quote: Seriously though. So Hyperion has no money to port the OS? So what, were stuck again with our OS being controlled by and almost bankrupt company? I didn't say that either. I'm asking people where the money to pay developers from over the year or two that such a port would take and no-one has even attempted to answer that. All I get are silly questions like these The size of such a porting project and lack of revenue during that time is such that simply being financially in the black is not good enough. You need serious capital.

I think you use very average statements, just like the others On one hand, you say, that ppl are not able to give some figures of how much would port to different platform cost, on the other hand, you are talking about some mysterious revenue in current situation. What are you talking about here, man? WHAT revenue during the porting period?

Look, I am from post communictic CZ, and I would not work in under 1500 EUR/month. If there are 2-3 devs in Hyperion, please do the simple math, and tell me, if you really think, that in recent situation, sales of SAM + sales of OS4.x + eventual sales of new mysterious OS advancements, are going to fully satisfy financial needs of company called Hyperion? Because if not, then long-term business plan should take the priority = go to bank, lend some money (if you believe in your plan), and work hard, and bring what you think will open you doors of oportunity in 2-3 years period, not in some short term limited one. And port to either x86 or ARM would surely bring you much more new users, who simply are not willing to invest in overpriced HW nowadays ...

Now would port to the different platform be financially satisfying? My take is, that porting to the different platform or not, can't be financially viable in itself, so I think Hyperion has some niche market in mind, and that is probably why they will stick to current HW and work with what they have. There might be some chances for them in the embedded market, because sales to the Amiga community can't bring enough money for them imo.