@z5

I, and I am sure a lot of the membership in the Amiga world like to see ADA get back out there. It may take some time to do it, but we are a patient lot (in general ).

Having said that, I can fully understand if you chose to discontinue working on it with all of the random automated "script kiddies" type people on the internet today, protecting sites from them and the spambots is an uphill and time consuming struggle.

_________________
Test sig (new)

@_Steve_

Quote:

Having said that, I can fully understand if you chose to discontinue working on it with all of the random automated "script kiddies" type people on the internet today, protecting sites from them and the spambots is an uphill and time consuming struggle.

Thanks. I might think different about the whole situation in a couple of days (i usually do). I just find it pointless and frustrating to spend time on crap like spambots, hackers, fake registrations,... It is something that no webmaster should have to deal with and it's valuable time that should go into the website itself... in an ideal world.

/end of topic please

_________________
A.miga D.emoscene A.rchive

@saimo

Yes, we don't forget that these dammed hackers are PC hackers that are very foolish atacking to all people.

@saimo

Really is a shame to see a great site brought down by idiots like this.

Thanks to all involved with the creation of this site.

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@ALL

Amiga Demoscene is one of the best thing of this community and a sure real impressive site to show what Amiga was capable to do.

Hope you get it back and running soon! You are great people!

RESPECT!

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

This makes me really sad. ADA was one of the best Amiga-sites ever and I will miss it alot. I hope you get the strenght back to put it back up again.

_________________
Classic!

This ada site is in good hands now and should return at some point in the not too distant future.

_________________
A.miga D.emoscene A.rchive

@kas1e

Although years ago I used to think that RTG and Warp3D should be supported at all costs now I kinda agree with some amiga sceners... there's no much point in doing exclusive demos for next gen amiga systems like AROS/AmigaOS4/MorphOS. And you know why? well... 060/AGA offers you some well known hardware with limited specs, easy to find and if you don't have it then you can run the demos under emulation.

What does AROS/OS4/MOS offers compared to PC demoscene? I'll tell you: nothing. The hardware is not fixed and you can have lots of different configurations with one common point: PC hardware has the latest goodies like pixel shaders and fun stuff and it's always faster. AROS/OS4/MOS is like time travelling to the past, but not the glorious past of dozens of Amiga AGA demos... it's the past of "exciting" pentium3/voodoo3 machines.

Come on... it's like the difference between osx/linux/win32/beos demoscene... it's all the same. And if nextgen amiga hardware was up to date with modern drivers it still wouldn't offer anything new or exciting, just a small reduced elite group that forces you to run its demos on some strange OS.

I think that the best approach is taken by Kiero^Elude: he makes demos for 060/AGA but makes them compatible with nextgen amigaOSes.

If we had fun and modern hardware (like CELL or Pixel Shaders) and we could access it then you would have a point but what's the excitement of running a custom demo that just runs on certain hardware that it's just like any macppc from the beginning of this decade (but using a PPC) and has no special tricks? What would be the excitement... running a demo on an OS that can crash due to lack of memory protection?

I can understand that people does demos for nextgen systems just for fun. I can understand that coders support RTG/Warp3D if it doesn't limit the AGA part. But I can't agree with the idea of ditching 680x0 and AGA because someone thinks that old underpowered hardware with drivers that don't exploit his expensive machine is cooler.

You know, c64 scene is quite alive... are accelerators like that 16Mhz one fun? hell, of course! does it make sense to force all c64 democoders to produce demos for that hardware? I don't think so.


About ADA... nobody forbidden adding RTG/PPC productions. In fact one of the most possitively voted is an intro that requires Permedia2/PPC to work (despiting it's a great intro I think that perhaps it should be in other category and not with 680x0 ones). There were talks about making system friendly graphics and nobody attacked anyone. In fact there were replies trying to help.

But old fixed AGA hardware is much cooler to exploit to the maximum. With next gen amigas you already have lots of configurations: CGX3/CG4/P96/Warp3D/Rave/TinyGL/MiniGL for gfx and you have to decide if you make your demo PowerUp/WarpOS (so it runs everywhere) /MorphOS1.4.x/MorphOS2.x/AmigaOS4.0 (so it runs on classics too) /AmigaOS4.1 you have lots of cpus with different frequencies 603e@150-300Mhz, 604e@180-233Mhz, MPC5200B@400, Sam440@550-800Mhz, Peg1 g3/600Mhz, Peg2 600-1250Mhz, A1SE@600Mhz, A1XE@800-1000Mhz, Mac Mini soon... after doing your *excelent* magazine I don't think anyone needs to tell you that it's a lot of work to support all the configs and that you won't exploit always all the power and that these computers are expensive.

Do you know the difference between some 8bit computers scene and amiga community? Some people thinks Amiga has some chance of taking the world and attacks its own users and makes their life impossible so they have to upgrade to the supposedly better architecture. On 8bit world people is now releasing games/demos for non upgraded computers, just like these were released in the eighties and if somebody thinks a c64 accelerator is great he won't try to force the rest of users to upgrade to something that won't make them happy due to lack of software.

Again, I think that supporting Warp3D and PPC amigas is really great, but I think it's just a hobby, like 680x0 ones.

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@z5

Quote:

This ada site is in good hands now and should return at some point in the not too distant future.

Great news! Congratulations

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@z5

great!!!

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@Crumb

I not said that need get to trash 68k/aga. Everythink on amiga today it's just a fun , and hobby and so on. We all understand that, and not need to compare it with winxp/directx and fast or not faster hardware. My point in supporting aos4/mos/aros/ - just becouse it's have normal for eyes screens, it's system friendly, it uses ahi, it can works fine everythere if coder start to works with meaning to support all. If i will want fast or very modern (from code side) demos, i will do/enjoy by winxp ones. But not all the time. Design for me make more that code. I just like more good resolution, not 320x200 :) But we all here, becouse it's hobby, it's fun. For fun we do os4, mos, aros. Why not support them ? All sceners fear to learn new bugs ?:)

I not say that aos4 it's the future like "we will beat PC, blalblaba". Everyone can/want/do everythink what they do. I just point that today, many ppls already have os4/mos/aros. They not have classic amigas anymore, but still , they want some fun. Why not add a bit more code to prod, and make these users happy ? Os4/mos/aros users already many. Why not ? All oses support Aos3.x api alrady => no need to rewrite code totally.

So what the problem support ALL the oses ? I see no problems with that. The only problem which i see, and about i said before, and which i dislike - many sceners stuck on 68k , only becouse of some freakenest. They have in mind opinions like "warp3d not amiga, os4 not amiga" and so on, but it's all make no sense, becouse it's all amiga-world. Making demos today for OS4 only, the same madness as just make demos for 68k/aga only.

I try to point, about supporting ALL. But what i dislike, it's that someone one time said that os4 not amiga, or warp3d not amiga, and many ppls just repeat it and repeat like monkeys. Where is fun then ? Making the old-die communiti of 68k/aga only freaks ?

Someone can dislike warp3d becouse they think that it's "directx". Well, AGA it's directx too. Any graphics subsystem (in any incarnation) it's graphics subsystem. Why they use AGA , and not use ECS only ? For me it's all of this really strange. They just specially not support somethink new. Just like a childs.

The good demo of course not mean faster hardware, or shaders, or kind. Good demo can be done just on 7mhz cpu with nothink, and be cool. Indeed. Demo its design, idea, and so on, but holly crap, why not making these 68k demos with supporting ahi/cgx screens ? It's too problematic ? No. It's easy, the problem it's just meaning "that and that amiga and not amiga". This crazynest just avoid to show stuff for more ppls (who not use winaue, but user already os4,aros,mos, and if we will read all the amiga related sites, we will see, that already _many_ users use os4/mos/aros. More than plain 68k. )

You know why in reality sceners said that os4/mos/aros not amiga blabla ? Becouse they have their codes and startups on assembler already, they not want spend time to make new startups. They fear be alone in their problems becouse other will said : you start to make stuff based on ahi/cgx ? bee .. it's not amiga ! :)

Just when ADA will up, try to read all the comments under the ppc/cgx/warp3d demos. Some ppls just like crazy. They see that demo really cool, and write "becouse it's warp3d, it's not amiga, sorry, i dislike that". Really crazy.

All what i want to point in end: anyone do what they do. But please, do stuff system friednly. It will give more fun for more ppls, and it will split-up a bit amiga scenes and amiga users. For me it's looks logical, if compare with that sitting on 68k winuae and jerky on assembler :)

Crumb, i agree with you. Let's it be 68k but with cgx/ahi. Kiero's examples are good here. Also BritLite add for his prods ahi/cgx (i have enjoyed on os4 by his 2008 and 2009 prods from the BreakPoints). The problem as i said - freakenest on 68k/aga only. Coders _specially_ not want to add a bit more code. No logica, nothink. Just not want. And other that repeat for these good 68k only groups. That bad, and a bit strange.

As i said, some time i am try to up some topics about os4, about other. But only when i (or any else) said somethink about Os4 , then freaks start repet like a monkey - not amiga ! not amiga ! Will be it bring more users ? NO ! Future about i talk - it jus split up all the amiga scenes and communities, without child frekenest, and make fun for all, and not listen some ppls who indeed do good demos on 68k. Maybe these repeaters think that if they will think like these groups, then they will do good prods too ?:)

What i also remember, Z5, you remember, that in last time when we talk with you on the ADA, i said: uhm, bad that these prods not works on os4/mos. And you said: i am happy becouse of that. I'll remember correct ? Just want to be sure that i understand you right.

Last edited by kas1e on 14-Jul-2009 at 12:16 PM.
Last edited by kas1e on 14-Jul-2009 at 12:07 PM.
Last edited by kas1e on 14-Jul-2009 at 12:02 PM.
Last edited by kas1e on 14-Jul-2009 at 12:00 PM.
Last edited by kas1e on 14-Jul-2009 at 11:58 AM.

_________________
Join us to improve dopus5!
zerohero's mirror of os4/os3 crosscompiler suites

@kas1e

If the demo is purely c2p based there's no much problem supporting RTG (there are some with screen colours IIRC but nothing really important) but doing c2p-only demos usually does not take advantage of copper/blitter/sprites and I guess that's the reason some people may prefer AGA-only demos.

Anyway, if your demo just does c2p and you don't support RTG you are commiting a crime

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@z5

Quote:

z5 wrote: This ada site is in good hands now and should return at some point in the not too distant future.

Cool, I love ADA...thanx

@Crumb

Just try to said on ADA that, what you answer for me, and add : to surppot os4/mos. You will see the nice answers :))

_________________
Join us to improve dopus5!
zerohero's mirror of os4/os3 crosscompiler suites

@kas1e

The problem is that there is no real successor to Commodore-Amiga but has turned into franchising business.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@itix
Indeed. And maybe it will not ever. But aros/os4/mos already here with all these aos3.x api. Of course it's harder to support all the oses. But in general (related to demo) it's all up to the engines/startups. Done one time , and then it works everythere. I mean just:

main()
{
if _aros_ then aros_includes_aros_specific_stuff();
if aos4 then blabl
if mos then balba
if aos3 then blalba
}


But this "specific" stuff, it's only different includes, and just be sure that the same fucntions works fine on all oses. Indeed it will take more time and that not so_very easy.

_________________
Join us to improve dopus5!
zerohero's mirror of os4/os3 crosscompiler suites

@kas1e
The problem is not whatever specific stuff. There are some things you can't easily done without classic hardware. Sure, C2P only demos + streaming music is usually easily portable between systems. But if you want do to properly timed tracked music, you're tied to Paula, since AHI sucks, and the best players for demos are still tied to Paula.

Just like vsync and doublebuffering. There are ways to do it, but you can't do it like on classic (hw-banging, copper stuff, with real raster timing), and there are no real guarantee it will work as intended everywhere. Or for example it will work or not depending on what the user set in it's monitor's tooltypes, with no real way to query the settings. And with no guarantees it will work on the next version of any OS or RTG system. (One example: Zero by Universe, the first A1/OS4 demo, which now only works on MorphOS, with OS4emu, because some pre-OS4 changed the byte orders of videomodes... Fun. I heard there was a fixed version of that demo tho', but the available download sites still have the partyversion only...)

Or one more example: ever tried to do palette tricks system friendly way, on non-AGA? (Or even: on AGA?) It's a pain in the ass, and depending on the multitasking load it will cause bad colors for one or two frames, with flickering, and whatever else...

All in all with most coders on the scene using WinUAE nowadays, which just provides all the classic "hardware" at hand, it simply doesn't worth the hassle. Especially since there's no real competition on any of the nextgen platforms, the remaining good teams are on 68k only. Even the ones who went the PPC/3D way (kiero!!111) are back on 68k, because there was no competition on the PPC systems. Not to mention if you make a MorphOS demo for example, and add it to pouet (obviously, as an Amiga RTG product), you get all the thumb downs, because people complaining "it's not Amiga!".

And with WinUAE (or by entering it to Breakpoint for example ), you get a free video recording of your demo, which is perfectly watchable on nextgen platforms. Sometimes more enjoyable than a native port, because of the problems above, and because video players are quite OK nowadays.

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@Chain-Q

You are right in general. It's if just compare some _very_ hardware banging prod with the system friendly ones. It's indeed like that. + many coders uses already 68k/aga for the 10-15 years.

I just start all this talks here in point that on ADA, many ppls _dislike_ support os4/mos. It's not like opinions, or not opinions. It's just they dislike at all. I can't understand that. I.e. i understand why, but it's really suck. Becouse today as i said many ppls uses os4/mos/aros. I just feel sometime, that some of amiga democoders just fear to support it, becouse others will said "it's not amiga". That suck. And if in every post , everyone will repeat it all the time, then of course we will have nothink.

As i said, 3-4 good amiga demo-coders just write nothink on ADA, becouse they not want heard "it's not amiga". Why not be more friendly to OSes which very closed to originals ? It can be more splti up amiga scene, and in general it will give more demoscene prods in end.

Last edited by kas1e on 14-Jul-2009 at 06:53 PM.

_________________
Join us to improve dopus5!
zerohero's mirror of os4/os3 crosscompiler suites

Since this site is deeply involved with computer technology I would use the correct term, which is "crackers". Hackers philosofy is very different. But the truth is only one: whoever did it is an idiot!

g0blin

_________________
GDG Entertainment

Cybersphere Page

@kas1e:

Sompe of the things you are stating are simply untrue so here goes for a few ot them:

Quote:

What i also remember, Z5, you remember, that in last time when we talk with you on the ADA, i said: uhm, bad that these prods not works on os4/mos. And you said: i am happy becouse of that. I'll remember correct ? Just want to be sure that i understand you right.

What on earth could i have against 68k prods being compatible with os4/mos? The more people that can watch a demo, the better. I simply stated that i'm happy ppl are still releasing 68k stuff.

Quote:

the new prods are not added (but they out)

All the new prods were on ADA. The breakpoint 2009 prods were added right after the party (i even took a day off work for that). ADA was never intended as a collection of every production available anyway (pouet does that already). Most, if not all good demos from the last years were added. I challenge you to make a list of all the goods prods that weren't on there. And if they weren't, they were either on my "to-do" list or i missed them.

Quote:

The site was also with the point (well, almost) to the 68k demo scene only. And many ppls on this site not like not mos, not aos4, not aros. And it's of course logical that in end not so many ppls visit it.

I challenge you to make a list of those "many ppls" who aren't on the site because of the supposedly anti "os4/mos/aros" thing. I want names of all the coders. Btw. the last real mos demo was released in 2005 (dcs/feel good). There has never been any aros demo so far. And can you enlighten me on all the os4 demos, please? Since Crisot quit coding, there haven't been many around, have there? So were is this new breed of many ppl hiding?

In general, you're blowing this anti-os4/mos/aros attitude completely out of proportion. I would have gladly opened a section in the forum for these platforms. All you had to do was ask. But did you? Nope, far easier to ditch the site the day it goes down.

All good os4/mos demos were on ada. They were treated like all the other demos. They were mixed in the charts (something not everyone agreed on btw.) and got equal amount of screenshots... The ones missing (the older venus art and mankind demos for example) aren't there because i lack screenshots (i never had a ppc/mos/os4).

You seem to confuse the opinion of visitors/webmaster with the policy of a website. These are two different things. I tried to stay neutral as much as possible on that topic. People have different opinions, so learn to deal with it. It's not because some visitors prefer 68k that the others aren't welcome.

Oh and by the way, the division between 68k and newer systems like aros/os4/mos is not "demo-scene" related at all. Just look at the fragmentation of non-demoscene sites. Amiga.org is very focused on people who love the old systems while amigaworld is more focused on os4. Then you have morphzone, aros websites,...

Last but not least, you were free to talk about all these things on the site itself. Did you? Nope. Far easier to have a go at it when it's down.

_________________
A.miga D.emoscene A.rchive