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      /  OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
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Trixie 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 13:02:56
#41 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2089
From: Czech Republic

@kolla

Quote:
Just save it to envarc:sys/def_drawer.info and you're done. All of the "issues" in this review were solved years ago on OS3.x already.

We Amigans know that, new users don't - that's one of the main points of the review. Thom feels (and I must agree with him) that AmigaOS makes too many assumptions about user knowledge and experience. Why on earth should a user know (or even care) that there is something like "envarc:sys/def_drawer.info"? The OS is there to help the user do their work (= run programs and produce data), not learn things that are apparently technical. No wonder we fail to attract new users!

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TheMaskedMuchacho 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 13:13:55
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Feb-2006
Posts: 341
From: Unknown

@Hans

As soon as i heard about composting being a new feature i figured it must be a step towards a new replacement for workbench and i also expect the features we are talking about here will be fixed when workbench does eventually get replaced, if somebody is working on a whole new replacement it seems illogical to spend time fixing the same issues in the old version when those who are using it know about the limitations and how to get round them. This may not be the case but it seems logical to me. It also seems illogical to replace workbench if there is a new kernel that has new features like SMP and full memory protection. so in my logical road map SMP kernel comes first, then new workbench although i really dont know what im talking about and things are probably very different so ignore my ramblings

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Swoop 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 15:45:48
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Long Riston, East Yorkshire

@all

I think that all the review essentially does is highlight, what should, and should not be the default setup. Third party apps, commodities etc, that make the "out of the box" experience more user friendly, should be included, but let's not lose the configurability of AmigaOS.

I like the ability to set up my Amiga the way I like, and not be told how I have the OS controls, this and that.
I want to retain all the current ways of improving MY Amiga experience, but i can also see how things could be improved for the first time "out of the box" user, by changing the current default set-up.


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A1XEG3-800 [IBM 750FX PowerPC], running OS4.1FE, using ac97 onboard sound.

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Tomas 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 15:51:20
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@tomazkid
I dont see why this did not meet the requirements of news? I have seen news items made even when people just mentioned the name Amiga while the article itself was off topic. This review is at least about amiga and very ontopic.

But anyways.. I thought it was a good review with a few exceptions like the icon positioning complaint.

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Tomas 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 15:52:56
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Hans
Quote:

Hans wrote:
@Trixie

Dragging "ClickToFront" into WBStartup is one of the first things that I do when I install Amiga OS. I agree that this should be the default behaviour.

Hans

I personally think it would be best to have it as a optional setting during install.

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Tomas 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 15:54:16
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@tomazkid

Pretty good review and he brings up some interesting and very good points.

One thing though:
[quote]In addition to the problems above, the file manager also doesn't auto-update its contents; you need to manually update a folder if you downloaded something new into it.



Not exactly sure what he means about that, but if he means if you drag something in a window it doesn't 're-alphabetize'/sort the window, well, that's one of the things I love about Workbench. When I drag something to a Windows it 'stays' right where I drop it... forever! Next time I go to the Window I know right where it is. It's where I put it. :)


No, what he means is, if you download a file to a drawer whilst viewing that drawer in Workbench, the downloaded file doesn't automatically appear in the window. IIRC, there may be a commodity which fixes this, but I can't remember the details. Regardless, auto-updating the file listing should be default behaviour. Not having a file listing auto-update when something is changed is annoying.

Hans
[/quote]
I agree on that one as well as i find the lack of auto update annoying myself. But again i think it should be a optional setting but would not mind if it was activated by default

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Tomas 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 15:57:31
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@ExiE

Quote:

ExiE wrote:
Good one.

The most interesting quote for me is:
Quote:
You get transparency effects when dragging windows around, which doesn't seem like a particularly useful feature to me. For an operating system that lacks a few key
applications, it doesn't seem like wisdom to me to focus on something as superficial as a few fancy effects.

Doesnt matter if we talk about missing apllications or quirks that should get fixed loong time ago. Getting the OS looks nicer is not as much important to me when some basic functionality (in terms of year 2009) is still missing.

I dont know if it is just my system, but i find the system more responsive with composition turned on. Dragging windows around is also smoother and use less cpu which is a good thing in my opinion.

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Daedalus 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 16:14:16
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Tomas

It's probably not your imagination, seeing as the CPU has to render all the windows, calculate the layers, what's visible above other items etc. with compositing turned off. With it turned on, all it has to do is request a few polygons with textures and the graphics board does the rest. I agree, I do think this is more than just eye candy, it provides a framework for applications which rely on these effects which simply didn't exist before.

I think the ClickToFront thing though is a matter of preference. I always hated it when using Windows (still do) that clicking on a window brought it to the front. If I want it at the front, I'll put it there. It's especially bad in Windows where an open dialog box completely paralyses the parent window, really frustrates me! Even with a busy pointer on workbench, you can still move a window to the back if you don't want to deal with it straight away. This all comes down to control I guess - I prefer having more of it than the average computer user...

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Tomas 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 16:20:35
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Daedalus

Quote:

Daedalus wrote:
@Tomas

It's probably not your imagination, seeing as the CPU has to render all the windows, calculate the layers, what's visible above other items etc. with compositing turned off. With it turned on, all it has to do is request a few polygons with textures and the graphics board does the rest. I agree, I do think this is more than just eye candy, it provides a framework for applications which rely on these effects which simply didn't exist before.
.

I think that is the theory at least. Seems like they butched that up in vista and linux though.
Aero and compiz seems to make my systems slower and use more resources which is opposite of how it should work.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 16:21:07
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Tomas

Quote:

I dont know if it is just my system, but i find the system more responsive with composition turned on. Dragging windows around is also smoother and use less cpu which is a good thing in my opinion.


That depends on the amount of memory you have on your graphic card.

If you only have 64mb video ram and you have lots of images and screens open you run out, whit result of memory swapped in and out video memory.

If you have 128mb or 256mb on your graphic card you will never notice this whit 16bit, but you might if you use 32bit and lots of big textures.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 16:34:47
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@all

I was amazed that he failed to find snapshot window, snapshot icons in menu, I wonder how long he played whit AmigaOS4.

The window to front and back feature is how AmigaOS should behave, its a signature feature, layering the windows is where useful.

About the other stuff I agree.

Window content should be auto updated, we have CPU power to refresh the window's.
If remember correctly some of filesystems already support auto notification signaling.

Auto snapshot windows might be idea, but will result in more disk writes as result also might result in more disk validation problems, do we rally need it?

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kolla 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 16:43:07
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Trixie

Quote:

Trixie wrote:
@kolla

Quote:
Just save it to envarc:sys/def_drawer.info and you're done. All of the "issues" in this review were solved years ago on OS3.x already.

We Amigans know that, new users don't - that's one of the main points of the review. Thom feels (and I must agree with him) that AmigaOS makes too many assumptions about user knowledge and experience. Why on earth should a user know (or even care) that there is something like "envarc:sys/def_drawer.info"? The OS is there to help the user do their work (= run programs and produce data), not learn things that are apparently technical. No wonder we fail to attract new users!


I see, so you're one of those who think that users shoud not need to know anything about the OS they're using, and will bring up a car analogy in the next round of argument.

I wholeheartly disagree. One of the core functions of the OS in regards to new users is to encourage the user to learn how the system works - _not_ hide everything behind a blurry curtain of "user friendlyness" - this is where AmigaOS shines, this is why we are still here.

In my view the user _should_ know about this. it's basic knowledge about how the icon system works, and by knowing this the user will also quickly know how to fix other issues related to def_icons. AmigaOS is still so tiny and open that it's quite easy to wrap ones mind around what each and every file on the system partition does - that's really one of the strong holds of AmigaOS, take that away and there's little left to yay for.

And who are these new users I keep reading about?

Last edited by kolla on 15-Jul-2009 at 04:44 PM.

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jkirk 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 16:53:16
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3349
From: Georgia (usa)

@kolla

Quote:
And who are these new users I keep reading about?


the people we don't have coming in in droves but need in order to revive the profitability of the amiga. this will renew support from the major(and not so major) software houses.

_________________
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Amigo1 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:03:04
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@Trixie

Dragging "ClickToFront" into WBStartup is one of the first things that I do when I install Amiga OS. I agree that this should be the default behaviour.

Hans


I do like it much more to use a qualifier-key in ClickToFront, So when i press the middle button the window comes to front.
In all other cases I have the normal, IMHO better, behaviour of Intuition

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itix 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:08:08
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@kolla

[quote]
In my view the user _should_ know about this. it's basic knowledge about how the icon system works
[/qujote]

There is nobody sitting next to him explaining how it works. We have been using Amiga 20 years and know every little detail about Amiga and when we were young we had friends who told us how to copy disks, how to use Workbench, how to use Shell and so on. But today you are left alone, there is no help system (I've learnt tons of valuable information from Windows help), the "common" knowledge has vanished and users are used to mainstream operating systems. Not to mention in good old days you could (sometimes) get printed manual which explained Workbench in detail.

But then, real Amigans use Shell, right?

_________________
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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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Amigo1 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:08:58
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@cv643d

Quote:

cv643d wrote:
I agree with autoupdate of WB windows, should be default. Same with this icon snapshot thing. It takes far to long to adjust windows and snapshot them in place these days IMHO.

Another thing bothering me, it would be nice if you could set drawers to always show hidden files as default, even if a drawer had no .info file.

Click to front is not the Amiga way of working with windows IMHO, it should not be default.


I can agree to Autoupdate, but really it never bothered me to snapshot icons. just resize the window, sort the icons with a keyboard shortcut (e.g. sort by name) and snapshot them. It takes barely 1 second..

edit:
maybe a "friendlier" default window size, position and sort method should be saved on envarc:sys/def_drawer.info by the developers. But then again, which position, window size and sort method are preferred by most users?!
I for myself do not like how Leopard does it. and (Off Topic! Off Topic!!) to bash MacOS X a bit more spotlight does not work as well as it is prized, especially it does not find stuff on NTFS usb drives it makes me tear my hair!!

Last edited by Amigo1 on 15-Jul-2009 at 05:18 PM.

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kolla 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:15:02
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@jkirk

Quote:

jkirk wrote:
@kolla

Quote:
And who are these new users I keep reading about?


the people we don't have coming in in droves but need in order to revive the profitability of the amiga. this will renew support from the major(and not so major) software houses.


Seriously, this will never happen, stop deluding yourself.

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steril606 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:20:25
#58 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Oct-2008
Posts: 462
From: Munich/Bavaria/Germany

@itix

Quote:

itix wrote:
@kolla

[quote]
In my view the user _should_ know about this. it's basic knowledge about how the icon system works
[/qujote]

There is nobody sitting next to him explaining how it works. We have been using Amiga 20 years and know every little detail about Amiga and when we were young we had friends who told us how to copy disks, how to use Workbench, how to use Shell and so on. But today you are left alone, there is no help system (I've learnt tons of valuable information from Windows help), the "common" knowledge has vanished and users are used to mainstream operating systems. Not to mention in good old days you could (sometimes) get printed manual which explained Workbench in detail.

But then, real Amigans use Shell, right?



And I even remember, back in 1988, having my amiga 500 brandnew sitting in front of me, how bad I felt even then about some of the quirks we are talking about here, especially all of those hidden files... I sometimes felt the workbench is broken, and could not understand, what it's actually useful for.
Most programs (especially Games ) I cared for were loaded without even using the Workbench. After reading a CLI (God, how much I prefer CLI to "Shell", why was that renamed?) tutorial, everything made much more sense, and I started using that instead of weird Workbench..

So, I concur, these days, without major magazines having tutorials on Amiga related, how should people know about these things?

Last edited by steril606 on 15-Jul-2009 at 05:21 PM.

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Amigo1 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:23:43
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@tomazkid

Quote:

tomazkid wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
I also dislike the way that the active window is always on top in Windows.


And when windows activated by the OS pop to front, either due to bad coding or OS behavior.
linux and osx are a bit better than Windows in this aspect, but still this applies to those OS:es too.

The sad thing is that it is so hard to explain the advantages with the Amiga windows behavior where you can type in a Windows not on front. The Windows/Mac/*nix users just asks: "What is it good for?" and "If it is such a good feature, why isn't it more widespread?"


You are so right with that! Sadly.

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kolla 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:24:21
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@itix

Quote:

itix wrote:
@kolla

Quote:

In my view the user _should_ know about this. it's basic knowledge about how the icon system works


There is nobody sitting next to him explaining how it works.


There shouldnt be any need for anyone to sit next to him, this is why we have manuals and help files, and online communities... sheesh, the luxury of today.

Quote:
We have been using Amiga 20 years and know every little detail about Amiga and when we were young we had friends who told us how to copy disks, how to use Workbench, how to use Shell and so on.


I've only used i for 15 years, and probably only for 10 years effective, and allthough I did have friends using amigas at the computer club, most of the stuff I've learned I learned myself either from reading or online communications.

Quote:

But today you are left alone, there is no help system (I've learnt tons of valuable information from Windows help), the "common" knowledge has vanished and users are used to mainstream operating systems. Not to mention in good old days you could (sometimes) get printed manual which explained Workbench in detail.


What do you mean "no help system"? They removed it? Besides there are heaploads of detailed manuals online for anyone to read, much more now than there ever was when I started.

Quote:

But then, real Amigans use Shell, right?


Real Amigans know when to use what.

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