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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
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kolla 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:31:21
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@steril606
Quote:

So, I concur, these days, without major magazines having tutorials on Amiga related, how should people know about these things?


I find google much more appealing than having to walk down to the store to buy some outragously over-priced magazine imported from the UK, mostly filled with advertising and crap game reviews, and less than a handfull of tutorials per year, spread over multiple issues...

Do poeple today know how to use search engines to find manuals? I would hope so, but you never know with these seemingly retarded "most users".

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Thom_Holwerda 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:51:16
#62 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Posts: 98
From: Warmenhuizen

@kolla

Are you calling me retarded? [I am the author]

This has nothing to do with me being stupid, or you being really, really smart. This has to do with legacy.

Sure, things like lack of auto-update made sense in the stone age, but we're in 2009 now. You adapt to new technologies. Imagine if nothing ever changed simply because "that's what we're used to".

AmigaOS 4.1 simply does not present itself very well, Google or no. It has really cool features but archaic ways of exposing them to users. Times change, users change, hardware changes. A good piece of software evolves. It adapts to the changing world around it, and makes the best out of what it has at its disposal.

A bad piece of software remains the same. It does not care about the rest of the world changing, and it does not make anything out of what it has at its disposal.

Sadly, AOS4 belongs to the latter category. While that might be fine for you, it won't get the Amiga any new users, and isn't that, in the end, what the platform should strive for? Die-hard long-time Amigans are a dying breed, you know.

Last edited by Thom_Holwerda on 15-Jul-2009 at 05:52 PM.

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Amigo1 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 17:52:02
#63 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@tomazkid

Pretty good review and he brings up some interesting and very good points.

One thing though:
Quote:
In addition to the problems above, the file manager also doesn't auto-update its contents; you need to manually update a folder if you downloaded something new into it.



Not exactly sure what he means about that, but if he means if you drag something in a window it doesn't 're-alphabetize'/sort the window, well, that's one of the things I love about Workbench. When I drag something to a Windows it 'stays' right where I drop it... forever! Next time I go to the Window I know right where it is. It's where I put it. :)


So true!!

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Amigo1 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:03:15
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@Trixie

Quote:

Trixie wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
Dragging "ClickToFront" into WBStartup is one of the first things that I do when I install Amiga OS. I agree that this should be the default behaviour.

And no commodity should be needed for that


Please no! I have 10 fingers in my hand, why only use 1 button on my mouse to everything?!

Third mouse button to take the window to front. please! :)

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TheMaskedMuchacho 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:06:55
#65 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Feb-2006
Posts: 341
From: Unknown

Those of us used to using amiga os in what ever form may find it ok to have to tell a window to update or what ever but there is no good reason for a window not automatically updating other than a few of us are used to it so no good reason not to make it happen automatically. If there is a good reason for a feature to work the way it does then it shouldnt be changed but something like auto updates is just a left over from a time when nobody really expected it to be any different and accepted it. Things move on, things get improved and keeping something like that in amiga os will put people off and make it seem out dated no matter what other great features get implemented as its a pretty obvious thing to anybody who uses the os for a short time.

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ShInKurO 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:15:46
#66 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2004
Posts: 465
From: Italy

@Thom_Holwerda

Hi
I'm just curious what you would think about MorphOS and Ambient if you could use them, any chance MOS dev?

btw, I've loved your review, but I disagree with you about automatic snapshot, I find smarter OS gives me to decide if I want save current situation or not feature of save current situation perhaps should be more visible...

About ClickToFront and deep gadget I agree, it should be launched as default tool, and it should be extended (for example to decide if user want to do 3 clicks instead of 2 or similar).

Workbench is very old and obsolete, if it' too difficult to create a new and modern graphical file manager for AmigaOS with Reaction (and no, Filer is not a modern FM lister, is only an attempt to create something which remember in a distant way Magellan, but lack of things like drag&drop of files and UI elements, tab support, view support which are all things supported by modern FMs make it a sort of Reaction demo...), it should be integrated DOpus Magellan or even to port Ambient on OS4, it's open source and modern. I don't understand why on UNIX/Linux/OSX/and soon on Windows you can choose to install KDE or GNOME while on AmigaOS many Amigans find scandalous to have Ambient on their sistem as valid alternative...

As you have suggested many seem don't have a vision for future...

Thom thanks a lot for your review and for your vision of Not-Amigans person, I hope this will help Amiga (core and third parts) developers to change some their conceptions...

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itix 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:19:41
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@kolla

Quote:

There shouldnt be any need for anyone to sit next to him, this is why we have manuals and help files, and online communities... sheesh, the luxury of today.


You mean that 100 pages long printed manual that came with the OS? Do you mean help files which you can access by pressing HELP key on, umm, oh, where is it again?

The point is that if you wish to let user learn everything himself then at least you must provide tools to do so.

Quote:

What do you mean "no help system"? They removed it?


Is there one? I have to admit I havent used OS4 so I didnt know they had added it.

Quote:

Real Amigans know when to use what.


What the reviewer was not. He had never used Amigas. But he knew about Andy Warhol and some obscure singer whose name escapes me.

Last edited by itix on 15-Jul-2009 at 06:21 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:20:31
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Thom_Holwerda

Quote:
AmigaOS 4.1 simply does not present itself very well,


We know there are problems, thats way it is not promoted outside the inner circles, remember there has not been any development between 1994 to 2000, you have 6 years where nothing was done.
OS3.5 and OS3.9 was just some patches nothing more.

Software companies existed up until 1998, but after that steep decline.

Quote:
A bad piece of software remains the same. It does not care about the rest of the world changing, and it does not make anything out of what it has at its disposal.


If you check Hyperion entertainment sites it shows that has been lots of updates seines 2004 when OS4 developer prerelease was released, even so OS4 is not really ready for the lime light and its going to take alot more time before its ready.

Quote:
A bad piece of software remains the same. It does not care about the rest of the world changing, and it does not make anything out of what it has at its disposal.


You know a cup of tea has not changed that much since it the English started importing it to Europa.
Good software does not need software patches and bug fixes, you changes things because you believe you can do it better, not because it can believe you can do it differently.

Quote:
Sadly, AOS4 belongs to the latter category.


It does not belong in any of the categories you defined, it is being updated yet it 6 years behind every other operating system.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Jul-2009 at 06:28 PM.

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ChrisH 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:24:06
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

I would like to point out that Hyperion have VASTLY modernised Workbench & AmigaOS with OS4 - the differences are quite shocking when you are used to OS3, which needs perhaps 20 or 30 different patches to modernise it. And even with OS3 fully patched, OS4 is still more modern & rather nicer to use.

I very much doubt that Hyperion have stopped modernising Workbench or the OS, it is just that the are so many things that need modernising since Commodore stop developing AmigaOS 15 years ago. OS4.1 is a good base to move forwards with.

Edit: BTW, three commodities that IMHO should be present by default are ContextMenus, ClickToFront & DepthToFront.

Last edited by ChrisH on 15-Jul-2009 at 06:40 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:26:44
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@ShInKurO

Quote:
why on UNIX/Linux/OSX/and soon on Windows you can choose to install KDE or GNOME while on AmigaOS many Amigans find scandalous.....


If you don't like Workbench you can install ScaleOS Desktop, but ScaleOS for OS4 is not ready yet it has some bugs that needs fixing, ScaleOS Desktop will be a good alternative once it has improved.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:31:45
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@itix

Quote:
umm, oh, where is it again?


On the “Scroll Lock” where else? Every new beginner know that
anyway there is documents drawer on the system partition.

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ShInKurO 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:32:51
#72 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2004
Posts: 465
From: Italy

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

If you don't like Workbench you can install ScaleOS Desktop, but ScaleOS for OS4 is not ready yet it has some bugs that needs fixing, ScaleOS Desktop will be a good alternative once it has improved.


Have you ever seen what Ambient is able to do? Do you know Ambient is open source and thus everybody can enanche it? I know amigans are refractory and in general to all modern things like opensource, oop, software engineering, collaboration between devs, but all this game of ignore world just become enough boring...

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itix 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:36:58
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

On the "Scroll Lock" where else? Every new beginner know that


I knew about the scroll lock key But it is just kludge to remap missing HELP key available on real Amiga keyboards.

It probably could be good idea if Amiga applications had HELP menu item as a standard.

Quote:

anyway there is documents drawer on the system partition.


I stand corrected.

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ShInKurO 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:39:42
#74 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2004
Posts: 465
From: Italy

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

anyway there is documents drawer on the system partition.


Please introduce me some of 21th century base user who read manuals... a desktop system should be usable even from an user who has nevew used that system before, for this reason there are many UI standard to follow (modern UI standards) which makes an UI intuitive...
Workbench is not intuitive for a die hard amigan who has left Amiga 15 years ago, for a not-amigan is unusable. There is really few to discuss about this argument, there is only to take some things for good and learn from them.,.

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ShInKurO 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:43:38
#75 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2004
Posts: 465
From: Italy

@itix

Quote:

I knew about the scroll lock key But it is just kludge to remap missing HELP key available on real Amiga keyboards.

It probably could be good idea if Amiga applications had HELP menu item as a standard.


In particular way when HELP key is always mapped with CANC key on standard keyboard... at this point I don't understand how a not-amigan user could know he has to press CANC for help :)

Oh sure he can navigate with powerful workbench Sys:Documentation/Keyboards.doc and read 11kb of txt to understand this... I believe he turn off the Amiga before

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kolla 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:46:49
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Thom_Holwerda

You'd have to be retarted to think I called you retarded, decide for yourself.

My main point is that _there are no new users_ - why people delude themselved into thinking that maybe one day there will be lots and lots of amiga users is beyond me. I'm just saying that there's non point in scaring away the few users that are left, by "giving in" for non-existing new users.

Obviously most people want Windows, so why not just let them have it?

Last edited by kolla on 15-Jul-2009 at 06:48 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 15-Jul-2009 at 06:47 PM.

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OldFart 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:48:42
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@NutsAboutAmiga

OFF TOPIC (I know...)
Quote:
You know a cup of tea has not changed that much since it the English started importing it to Europa.
I'm sorry to have to correct you here, but this tea story seems to be a bit different from yours...
The reason that it is strongly connected to Great Britain, and England in particular, is well documented in 'Asterix in Britain'.
BACK TO TOPIC PLEASE!

OldFart

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:51:07
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@ShInKurO

Quote:
Have you ever seen what Ambient is able to do?


Last time looked at Ambient / MorphOS it looked more like painting program, that was long time ago, from what I have seen on snapshots I can't say I find it where appealing to my personal taste.

Quote:
Do you know Ambient is open source and thus everybody can enanche it?


Yes but you need the newest MUI version, so its not easy portable.

Quote:
Open source, oop, software engineering, collaboration between devs, but all this game of ignore world just become enough boring...


I released all my changes to GPL stuff, and I no problem working whit MorphOS developers, ff they like to, and if I have time and so on.

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Thom_Holwerda 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:54:02
#79 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Posts: 98
From: Warmenhuizen

@kolla

The whole idea is that the Amiga DOES NOT give in.

Did Mac OS X give in to the established way Mac OS works? No. They made a very modern system that functions and works exactly like Mac OS, just with modern technology and improvements across the board.

There is no reason to assume that something similar couldn't be devised for the Amiga. Keep the uniqueness where it makes sense, improve where it makes sense. That's how software works if it wants to remain viable. Build upon your strengths, improve your weaknesses.

You apparently want the AmigaOS to stay exactly the way it is - which will inevitably leads to its demise. Way to support your platform. I'm a die-hard BeOS fan, but at least I see that some of the BeOS-isms that I like so much simply aren't viable anymore in today's world.

Last edited by Thom_Holwerda on 15-Jul-2009 at 06:55 PM.

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kolla 
Re: OSNews.com's OS4.1/Sam review is now available
Posted on 15-Jul-2009 18:55:10
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ShInKurO

I've used Ambient, and I dont really grasp what the fuss is about.

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