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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
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Zardoz 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 12:42:11
#141 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:
One thing I like about AmigaOS is that it DOES NOT write to disk without your consent. My Windows Vista machine starts using the disk drive for every breath I take, it continuosly writes to disk for any stupid thing, even if you change the way to display a window.


Of course it does write to your disk without your consent, do you not use your Amiga for anything other than clicking Workbench icons? Last time I used mine as one of my main machines it was serving its files with Samba, with logging, I had TCP/IP logs, I had IRC logs, I had a browser (cache.... any website can force a refresh), I had YAM with tons of emails and autofetch, I had all sorts of things. Turning the machine off straight away meant that there was a good possibility that something would write to the disk. So, I had a script to close everything important manually before turning it off. What does that sound like? Right, a primitive shut-down procedure, I had to do it manually and it couldn't catch everything. I'd very much prefer the OS to do it for me. You want it the Amiga way? Sure, make sure the OS itself never or hardly ever needs to be shutdown itself, just signal the applications. That way you can have it the way you like, close all the apps, hit the button and it kills power immediately but don't make it sound as if AmigaOS is the magical OS where you can always kill power with no damage and that it never writes to disk without telling you, this is bull crap if you are doing anything useful with it.

Last edited by Zardoz on 04-Dec-2009 at 12:42 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 12:54:24
#142 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

about the feature

Definitions:
L Legacy (flip of power switch)
Q Quick (apps do the fastest save possible, no asking "do you want to save" etc… + OS writes a memo of running programs)
S Save (applications do normal save)
A All (all open data)
R Reboot (softreboot, with file I/O stop before reset)
H Hardreboot (hard reboot, with file I/O stop before reset, started by SW)
RR Reboot and Restore (after reboot OS will
Shutdown (normal)
suspendtoRAM (normal ACPI)
Suspendtodisk (normal ACPI)
T Timed
O Other OS
B To BIOS setup

Example combinations that could be done/supported (perhaps, further studies needed):
L
SA
SAT
QSA *
QSAR
QSARR *
QSAL*
QSA+shutdown *
QSA+suspendtoRAM
QSA+suspendtodisk
QSAT
QSARO
QSARHO
QSA+suspendtodisk+HO
Suspendtodisk+HO
QSARB
suspendtoRAM
Suspendtodisk
Etc...

And normal startup, normal startup + ask if recover * + normal startup + autorecovery
Etc….

I would mostly use / want these: *


Added one star...

Last edited by KimmoK on 04-Dec-2009 at 01:35 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 12:58:24
#143 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Zardoz

>>or even better it waited for me to click on "power down" again because it had/has to install some updates.
>That has nothing to do with shut down.

But it should be done better.
After shutdown was ordered by the user, the OS should not have asked again for nothing.


(I would prefer: performing OS update and then shutdown: cancel? shutdown immediately?)

Last edited by KimmoK on 04-Dec-2009 at 01:06 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 04-Dec-2009 at 01:01 PM.

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DAX 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 13:18:59
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Zardoz
I think it is the opposite, I do seriously work on computers and do not play with them much.
I could say that you don't break AmigaOS because it had some web app cahing going on.
Did switch of my Amiga with some net apps open and it certainly never brought my machine down (it just boots to workbench as expected and doesn't give any trouble after it).
Sure you will lose data if you were in the middle of data transfers, but then again if you know you are in the middle of something important why are you switching off your machine in the first place? (Common sense helps a lot there...).

But alas, graphics is my biz, and when I turn off my machine (no matter which) I tend to save and close all apps manually as I don't trust my hard work to OSs (left my session in sleep mode under Vista for 5 days in a row and it ended up crashing, never did that EVER again).
Automatic this and that just doesn't work for me, I prefer to drive everything manually and on Amiga it is easier to do so.

I don't see anything futuristic in automatic handling of shutdowns or even in sleep modes. They always eventually fail you generating big economical troubles if you tend to get paid for what you were doing on the computer.

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Zardoz 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 13:44:06
#145 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

Quote:
But it should be done better.
After shutdown was ordered by the user, the OS should not have asked again for nothing.


Fully agreed. When you press shutdown, you should be asked whether you want to save unsaved work and after that the system must do what it can to shut down, with no other prompts.

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Zardoz 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 13:57:05
#146 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:
I think it is the opposite, I do seriously work on computers and do not play with them much.


Yet you do not seem to be running very much on AmigaOS.

Quote:
I could say that you don't break AmigaOS because it had some web app cahing going on.
Did switch of my Amiga with some net apps open and it certainly never brought my machine down (it just boots to workbench as expected and doesn't give any trouble after it).


And quite a few times I had to wait for validation and my IRC logs were corrupt. You could say it won't break AmigaOS but you would be wrong, as it can corrupt the file system, or at least invalidate the bitmap, and it can corrupt at least the files being written to. If this has never happened to you, count yourself lucky. I've had "fun" nights battling with DiskSalv to recover my data after FFS got trashed because I rebooted half a second too early (or late...)... And quite a few times because the system crashed because of a rogue app. Maybe you're right, there's no point having a shutdown procedure when the system itself can die at any moment from any rogue application. Hurray!

Quote:
Sure you will lose data if you were in the middle of data transfers, but then again if you know you are in the middle of something important why are you switching off your machine in the first place? (Common sense helps a lot there...).


Because what I think is important doesn't always have anything to do with what the OS and all running applications think is important, period.

Quote:
But alas, graphics is my biz, and when I turn off my machine (no matter which) I tend to save and close all apps manually as I don't trust my hard work to OSs (left my session in sleep mode under Vista for 5 days in a row and it ended up crashing, never did that EVER again).
Automatic this and that just doesn't work for me, I prefer to drive everything manually and on Amiga it is easier to do so.


Fair enough, you save your data. Doesn't mean you won't miss something every now and then. If you people want AmigaOS to advance you have to accept that it will have to do more in the background.

Quote:
I don't see anything futuristic in automatic handling of shutdowns or even in sleep modes. They always eventually fail you generating big economical troubles if you tend to get paid for what you were doing on the computer.


Of course, they are not futuristic, they are 30 year old technology that we have yet to embrace and are suffering from it.

Sleep modes failing are a problem.

Shutting down failing ending in big economical troubles? Really? Who is your system admin? If it is yourself, I cannot stress enough how important it is to have a working and up to date system image for any work OS you have, whether it's AmigaOS or Windows or OS X or anything for that matter and that is not because of any shut down procedure failing but because *ANY* computer related procedure can fail and if you have "big economical troubles" when that happens it means you are not prepared for these eventualities and you shouldn't be the system admin.

None of my systems have ever died because of a failed shut-down but unlike you I am not going to claim it is not possible for it to happen. It very much is. Just like FS damage by turning the machine off at any time.

Last edited by Zardoz on 04-Dec-2009 at 01:58 PM.

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Deniil715 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 13:57:27
#147 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4206
From: Sweden

I haven't read the whole thread but I have an idea of how this could be implemented in a fairly complete way today, well except for the power switch itself which sends no signal to the OS but just switches off.

Anyway:
AmigaOS already (since long) supports reset handlers, a routine which gets called when you press Ctrl+Amiga+Amiga. This routine already shuts down the network automatically in OS4 such that when you come back up you can immediately reconnect to for example IRC without an annoying messages about "multiple connections not allowed" for example.

Any user (well programmer) could add his own reset handler that would scan through the list of commodities (if that were possible) and send the ForceQuit message to all running commodities. It could do the same with OS4 Applications registered with appl.library.

Then the end user could configure all arexx ports he has in the system and the quit messages each program/port uses and send quit messages there too. This would quit pretty much all larger programs that may unexpectedly write to disk.

The only two things missing are a signal from the power switch to the OS and a shutdown command that could shut down the computer using software, which is of course possible on any ATX mobo.

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Zardoz 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 14:00:54
#148 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Deniil715

I was going to suggest that actually. AmIRC for instance was always disconnecting automatically whenever it detected a reset. It's just that people here seem to have some bizarre illusion that "to shut down" means turning Windows 98 off, initiating a procedure that will almost always fail, without which the system will definitely die.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 14:22:13
#149 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Zardoz

>>But it should be done better.
>>After shutdown was ordered by the user, the OS should not have asked again for nothing.

>Fully agreed. When you press shutdown, you should be asked whether you want to save unsaved work and after that the system must do what it can to shut down, with no other prompts.

That could be the default way.
But I would like to be able to tell in shutdown.prefs that:
when shutdown is ordered, AOS should "quicksaveall"+finish disk I/O+poweroff and if some program does not respond, poweroff anyway.



**********
And some golden memories of old Thinkpad laptops + win2000 + dataencryption:
- the dataencryption tool did not support suspendtodisk
- one did suspendtoRAM, waited the laptop to go blank&silent and put laptop to bag & went away
- on the way (waiting a plane @ airport) one wanted to check some document, opened the bag ... and the content was BURNING HOT !!! The display was on and CPU cooler yell mercy! There was a box on screen that said: could not suspendtodisk.
- or one just noticed at the meeting that laptop had woken up and used all it's battery and after power ended, all unsaved work was lost and some files corrupted on HDD

Last edited by KimmoK on 04-Dec-2009 at 02:29 PM.

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polka. 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 14:28:07
#150 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@DAX

It already happened a few times to me that I (sometimes accidently) switched out my Amiga and when I restarted, the partition was not validated, sometimes a few files were corrupt. This can happen very easily during webbrowsing (images that are still being loaded and cached on harddisk), but also many other tasks.
So your assement that the Amiga always "asks" you before write operations is quite incorrect.

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DAX 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 14:52:13
#151 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Zardoz @Polka
A partition runined because it was writing a JPG to cache when you shut down the computer...I don't know, if you say so who am I to tell you it can't be. Luckily enough it never happened to me, and i shared my experience with you.
Since we are talking safety I should stress that the last thing the latter needs is a background automatic activity. For safety reasons my workstation is net impaired. All processes are deactivated and when I need a connection I use a laptop, scan files for virus, save what I need on pen-drives or DVDs, and bring clean data to the workstation, which of course is connected to a UPS.
Ok I'll admit that I don't count as a tipical user.

But on Windows I miss the times when the only things running on my computer were the applications I launched as it stills does some automatic activity even after shutting down tons of processes (my 3D app for example writes a log of everything just to send it to Autodesk at the first connection, what a pity that there will never be any first connection).

I am fed up with automatic bullcrap.

I hate automatic updates, automatic information retrieval, and anything that is not performed by myself through manual commands (and of course I also hate cloud computing and "on the net" data storage in general).

No need to name worst case scenarios, the point is, Windows and apps that run on it do too much by themeselves and I like AmigaOS because it generally does not, but maybe it is just me, I'll give you that.



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Swoop 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 15:58:05
#152 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 2157
From: Long Riston, East Yorkshire

@DAX

Quote:
I am fed up with automatic bullcrap.

I hate automatic updates, automatic information retrieval, and anything that is not performed by myself through manual commands (and of course I also hate cloud computing and "on the net" data storage in general).

No need to name worst case scenarios, the point is, Windows and apps that run on it do too much by themeselves and I like AmigaOS because it generally does not, but maybe it is just me, I'll give you that.

I agree 110%. With AmigaOS, I am in control of the computer, and not the other way round.

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Amigo1 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 17:17:01
#153 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1572
From: the Clouds

@Zardoz

Quote:

Zardoz wrote:
@Amigo1

I can count the number of times that I've worked on a *single* thing on my computer in the past year in the fingers of one hand. I am always working on ten gazillion documents across many applications. It's not easy at all to keep track what is saved and what isn't.
....
I would very much prefer the OS to stay on if I forget to save my work than for me to lose that work, thank you very much.


We all do multitask, most of us do even while working on and with the Amiga.
I'm not sure what you are suggesting... If you have to switch off the computer and you don't know if you saved the work, what is the real difference of quitting the apps and pushing the power button or stay almost idle in front of the screen waiting for the OS to pop up a requester?

Granted if we are talking about a "sleep mode" it's a different matter.

And also granted that, as you said, at least me, when I'm thinking about shutdown procedures, Windows comes to mind. Even my last generation 3 weeks old iMac or my 2008 MBP (both with snow leopard) gets to my nerves if I have to switch it off sometimes. And as I see it, snow leopard has improved a lot in this regard over leopard..


Talking about the filesystem, I don't know why people still use FFS instead of SFS or the new JXFS, it should solve the validation problem AFAIK.

Last edited by Amigo1 on 04-Dec-2009 at 05:23 PM.

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Amigo1 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 17:19:08
#154 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1572
From: the Clouds

@Swoop Post #152

I do agree with you. At least it gives the impression of being like that.

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 22:01:42
#155 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@KimmoK

Holy cow! How is this simpler than ACPI? I think the others are right. On soft power down, a message should be sent to all running applications. (This assumes that all applications use the same framework. On the Amiga, they do not.) Applications can either ignore the message, respond to the message, or ask for more time. Incidentally, that's what other operating systems do.

Quote:

Definitions:
L Legacy (flip of power switch)
Q Quick (apps do the fastest save possible, no asking "do you want to save" etc… + OS writes a memo of running programs)
S Save (applications do normal save)
A All (all open data)
R Reboot (softreboot, with file I/O stop before reset)
H Hardreboot (hard reboot, with file I/O stop before reset, started by SW)
RR Reboot and Restore (after reboot OS will
Shutdown (normal)
suspendtoRAM (normal ACPI)
Suspendtodisk (normal ACPI)
T Timed
O Other OS
B To BIOS setup

Example combinations that could be done/supported (perhaps, further studies needed):
L
SA
SAT
QSA *
QSAR
QSARR *
QSAL*
QSA+shutdown *
QSA+suspendtoRAM
QSA+suspendtodisk
QSAT
QSARO
QSARHO
QSA+suspendtodisk+HO
Suspendtodisk+HO
QSARB
suspendtoRAM
Suspendtodisk
Etc...

And normal startup, normal startup + ask if recover * + normal startup + autorecovery
Etc….

I would mostly use / want these: *

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 4-Dec-2009 22:13:32
#156 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@ChrisH

Quote:
One can imagine that if AmigaOS runs on a Journaled filingsystem that guarantees data consistency (not just meta-data consistency), then all it needs to do is write any "important" system state to disk as it changes, and hey-presto, no shutdown needed! In fact we are already extremely close to this ideal.


I think you need the transaction-based API you mentioned. As far as the file system is concerned, the metadata is the data, as the file system is only responsible for keeping the file system consistent. It doesn't know or care about application data. For example, imagine the system fails while writing the second of two blocks of data. Upon restart, the file system can either roll the block write forward (if it has enough information) or roll it back (if it doesn't). This leaves the file system in a perfectly sane state. From the application's perspective, however, the file system may have just triggered World War III in its naive attempts to keep things stable.

EDIT: Fixed quote tags.

Last edited by Trev on 04-Dec-2009 at 10:20 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 7-Dec-2009 14:17:19
#157 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Trev

>Holy cow! How is this simpler than ACPI?

Simpler? Not sure.
More (optional) possibilities & configurability? Yes!
More reliable? It seems so. (Linux shutdown + boot up, vs linux suspendtoXYZ as an example)
Something new? Perhaps, new things sell.

(Also, also ACPI could work better on OS4 Amigas than on bulk HW & mainstream OSs, because we have less HW & drivers to test & support.)

>On soft power down, a message should be sent to all running applications. (This assumes that all applications use the same framework. On the Amiga, they do not.)
>Applications can either ignore the message, respond to the message,

I think I went through those matters.

quicksaveall and shutdown message support could be implemented in new/current AOS4 SW. I think they would be very quickly taken in use by programmers.
We can not change old 68k applications, so, quicksaveall would not work with them.

> or ask for more time.
> Incidentally, that's what other operating systems do.

Many Amigans dislike how linux or windows sometimes seem to wait applications to respond for a very long time.
IMO: on Amiga, the user must be able to tell AOS to not to wait indefinitely, etc… as described a lot earlier.


I really need to make a summary.rtf of all this…..

Last edited by KimmoK on 07-Dec-2009 at 02:19 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 07-Dec-2009 at 02:18 PM.

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Gebrochen 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 10-Dec-2009 0:21:46
#158 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1410
From: Australia, VIC

@KimmoK

I feel like Im butting in half way through a conversation here, but I think your ideas are there, but the way to go about them may not necessarily be what others had in mind.

Although I agree, new things sell, but not all new things sell either, its like a fine balance, how do you know that your proposed methods here will be the positive effect and be a seller, versus new methods that have a negative effect(xp to vista) as an example? Many stayed with XP at the time, when they realized their friends machines with Vista OS wasnt that much better than XP, if anything, many had called it worse.
(Again, this was perhaps bad marketing also? I don't know)

What is to say this effect wouldn't happen with the Amiga OS4.x when certain NEW changes happen? (I admit, NEW ideas always carry a risk)

But your right, many Amigans may :

QUOTE
dislike how linux or windows sometimes seem to wait applications to respond for a very long time.
IMO: on Amiga, the user must be able to tell AOS to not to wait indefinitely, etc… as described a lot earlier.
END WUOTE

Anyway, not trying to give you a hard time, your ideas throughout this whole thread have been nice and refreshing read.

Cheers

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 3-Jan-2010 17:32:31
#159 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Zardoz Quote:
We are talking about operating systems that schedule stuff to happen at any point, if my machine is a file server (which all my machines are in fact) you cannot possibly know when someone else will write onto the hard drive. It's non-deterministic from the point of view of a single user

I know *exactly* what my Amiga computer is doing, so I do not need a Shutdown procedure. I even know it pretty well with Windows XP, but sadly I still need a shutdown procedure for that.

But *I* don't use my machine as a server, therefore I don't need a shutdown procedure. If you *do* use it a server, or you don't understand your computer, then OF COURSE you need a shutdown procedure. I just do not believe it should be REQUIRED for cases where it is NOT required. See previously post for how to achieve this.

Look at it like this: I know when I am working on a document, and clicking on save, therefore I know when it is making disk access. if software does do something without my consent (e.g. IRC logger) then it is most likely unimportant, because it's probably not due to me, and therefore can be lost in the worst case. If I install something that can do *important* things without my aweness (e.g. server) then obviously that software needs a shutdown procedure.

I think the key point of disagreement is that you think EVERY write to the disk is important, where-as I only think that user-caused writes to the disk are important (excluding servers). Just about anything that happens automatically, is either unimportant or can be repeated automatically.

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Doobrey 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 5-Jan-2010 18:43:55
#160 ]
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Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 276
From: Unknown

It's simple, with the XCore in the new X-1000 it's now possible to hook it upto this to give you a software controlled shutdown.

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