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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
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Snuffy 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 5-Jan-2010 19:49:57
#161 ]
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Joined: 25-Oct-2005
Posts: 1121
From: Michigan, USA

@KimmoK

I think it would be nice if AOS4 could be told to shutdown & remember apps that were running & files that were open & do backup with a one/two mouse clicks or by the press of ATX power button. etc...
I've played with "hibernation" on the XP-pro and that's a nice feature. A 'Yes' vote for OS4.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 25-Jan-2010 7:56:31
#162 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5192
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

Yesterday I had MacMini on and I must say that so far MOS shutdown feature is very pleasing. It's nicer to be able to select butterfly/shutdown than to reach the back of the macmini for the powerbutton.
And the MOS SW shutdown is a lot faster than the power button.

I think MOS powers off MacMini in 2...3 seconds by SW.

It could be a good basic example for AOS4 shutdown (first and simplest) implementation.

Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Jan-2010 at 07:57 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 25-Jan-2010 8:13:06
#163 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5192
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Snuffy

You should also try Ubuntu's latest shutdown and then startup.
Shutdown saves information about running applications and clever applications save (roughly) their own state.
In startup phase Ubuntu launch the applications that vere running before shutdown and applications load the the data that they were handling before the shutdown.

It's very much like hibernation and on my laptop Ubuntu does that faster than WinXP does the suspend-to-disk thing.

The main difference for me is that in clean startup system is more securely set up properly (suspend things fail often) and I can change kernel / update the OS without loosing any of my ongoing work.

So, my idea of the shutdownwith save etc. system is very similar to how Linux does it today, exept that AOS must do it 10...100x faster than Linux. (very easy, when one compares cuyrrent startup and shutdown times of Winux vs Amiga world)

Last edited by KimmoK on 25-Jan-2010 at 08:14 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 10:17:57
#164 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5192
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

It is happening... kind of. rememberopendrawers

This kind of pieces of scripts and applications will enable the intelligent shutdown & restart that I've tried to describe in this thread. SW shutdown/restart done properly.

Last edited by KimmoK on 20-Feb-2012 at 10:18 AM.

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ilbarbax 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 10:36:43
#165 ]
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Joined: 17-Jan-2010
Posts: 176
From: Italy

@KimmoK

Why you want to loose the best Amiga feature? I like to push the switch button and go elsewhere without care what was opened. I'm even bored by the MOS shut down option !
I don't want my Amiga works like a MS$ clone.

With the current Amiga boot time it is absolutely unusefull

Last edited by ilbarbax on 20-Feb-2012 at 10:37 AM.

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realize 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 11:02:49
#166 ]
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Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: nyc

@KimmoK

Quote:
I think MOS powers off MacMini in 2...3 seconds


On my peg2 it's instant! I mean it like .25 sec.

How anyone can say the option for sw shutdown is useless is beyond me.

Btw why is it so hard to implement this feature? MorphOS has had this since 1.5?

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 11:08:45
#167 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5192
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@ilbarbax

I do not want to loose anything. I want to have more options.

If I want I could switch off or reboot and loose things that I might not have saved etc, etc. Like it has been so far.
Another way is to click on a button and wait 1...5 seconds for AOS to do the shutdown. When I next time switch Amiga on, it boots to where I was last time.

(btw. it seems latest windows is able to boot a lot faster than AOS4...)

+some of the current AOS4 HW already have HW assisted watchdog. With shutdown (or when system is crashing) it could be used to trigger quicksaveall and forced poweroff/reboot when the user I/O is already crashed. And it would help to make 100% sure that the system surely powers off when told so, unlike how it is done in the mainstream.

Last edited by KimmoK on 20-Feb-2012 at 11:14 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 20-Feb-2012 at 11:13 AM.

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Fab 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 11:26:39
#168 ]
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Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

SW shutdown is about instant (except if some resethandlers installed by applications override this of course).

And by the way, MorphOS Ambient also has the option to remember closed drawers and viewers (images/text/...).

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samo79 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 12:13:50
#169 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3434
From: Italy, Perugia

@realize

Quote:
Btw why is it so hard to implement this feature? MorphOS has had this since 1.5?


It's not hard at all, it was just not implemented .. who know, maybe it will be with 4.2 ..

Last edited by samo79 on 20-Feb-2012 at 12:14 PM.

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olegil 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 12:55:35
#170 ]
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Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@ChrisH

Good to know. Can you come over to my place each evening and shut off my machine? Since you know exactly what it's doing, I mean

This discussion is veering off into the sunset, I think. KimmoK wants to have a way to get back to what he was doing. I do not see anything wrong with that. The script solution that locks drives is just one half of it. That safely shuts down the machine, but doesn't help in any way with bringing the apps back to where they were. Besides, requiring users to write scripts to solve something that is so critical is just wrong. In my opinion.

I use suspend-to-disk myself on the laptop, but it's just not good enough for me. For instance, I can do suspend at work and wake up at home or on the bus, but not the other way around (as I use a docking station at work some drivers won't be initialised if I booted at home. The chance of me going a weekend without rebooting is slim).

Having everything stopped so it IS safe to press the power button would be really nice. If that included sending a message to any open applications that they should wake up in the same state next time would be awesome. Here's what I want (and I want this irregardless of OS):

Have a choice of just shutting down as soon as all filesystems are locked and synced OR saving app states. For a viewer, I want to get back to the same page (document) or time (media) I left off, for an editor I also want undo-information.

Connect power button or other input device to this function. In a pinch, lock up with filesystems in a read-only state so I can safely pull the plug (as I sometimes need to do on both windows and Linux, no matter what opi says about the matter)

This would be EASY to implement, but would be an opt-in for application programmers. But guess what? Supply and demand. If there is a demand for it, someone can profit from supplying it.

This completely replaces suspend-to-disk which would be virtually impossible to implement.

See what we did there? We replaced impossible with easy. The next step after making apps use this resume-function is obviously the race for apps to start quicker. There IS room for improvement, and sometimes having a different set of constraints means you come up with a better solution (as anyone who has ever optimised towards a local minimum will testify to )

So, who creates the bounty?

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OldFart 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 16:53:03
#171 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 2952
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@KimmoK

Quote:
(btw. it seems latest windows is able to boot a lot faster than AOS4...)

What you gain on one side you loose on the other: what's the closing down time of Windows currently?

I, for one, am pleased with the overal startup-, reset- and closing down time.

OldFart

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Tomas 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 17:00:59
#172 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

I think it is about time that Amiga OS gets a built in shutdown feature as well.
I am getting a bit tired of disk validation stopping my system from booting just because some software i cannot close decided to write in background just as i restart or switch it off.

It worked fine in old days when disk wasn't used all the time, but these days there is always something writing/reading from disk that can lead to filesystem corruption.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 17:42:12
#173 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11649
From: Norway

@KimmoK

I like the way it is, don't don't wont or need it another way, I don't wont to wait for system to write some thing too disk, and don't wont my OS start applications I'm not going to use when boot it, it is not like I'm using the same applications every time boot. If did I just put the applications in wbetartup.

I like the fact that my RAM disk is clean, and that all my crashed applications has been flushed from memory.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Feb-2012 at 05:46 PM.

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Tomas 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 17:44:28
#174 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@KimmoK

I like the way it is, don't don't wont or need it another way, I don't wont to wait for system to write some thing too disk, and don't wont my OS start applications I'm not going to use when boot it, it is not like I'm using the same applications every time boot. If did just applications in wbetartup.

Then you can just switch it off like you do now.. Why is it a bad thing to provide options?? Especially when current method leads to data or filesystem corruption.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 17:48:57
#175 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11649
From: Norway

@Tomas

If you use SFS you will not get corrupted filesystem, simply because it does not overwrite, Disk Validation is some thing you get when your using the old and slow "FastFileSystem", ironic.

(You might lose the latest changes. if too quick on power button that's all.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Feb-2012 at 06:37 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Feb-2012 at 05:50 PM.

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Chris_Y 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 17:54:42
#176 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3148
From: Beds, UK

I've had no problem with using the power button on the case.

However, I do see a benefit of hooking into that (as you can with ATX/ACPI) to call the reset-handler before the computer switches off completely.

A power off option in the WB menu could do the same thing (call reset-handler and power off rather than rebooting)

If the filesystems have installed reset handlers correctly then they will write all pending data before shutdown = no more corrupt disks.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 20:12:04
#177 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11649
From: Norway

@Chris_Y

Well you will probably need some kind of power management on a netbook or laptop, so the battery does not run out.

Turning of the display after 30min, power down hard drives, and clocking down the CPU, until finally going in to hibernation so nothing gets lost.

I don't see it as horribly useful on a desktop like X1000.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Feb-2012 at 09:20 PM.

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Mechanic 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 20:28:51
#178 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
I don't see it as horribly useful on desktop like X1000.


Same here.

If somebody really needs SW shutdown we could probably come up with
something similar to a Fart Button that when pushed pops up a message
saying something like 'Are you saving to disk at this time?' 'Yes/No' and if
you answer No it then proceeds to tell you to push the computer power
button. (and farts).

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TheDaddy 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 20:48:15
#179 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

I like to simply press the button to switch it off.

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Tomas 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 22:44:51
#180 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Mechanic

Quote:

Mechanic wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
I don't see it as horribly useful on desktop like X1000.


Same here.

If somebody really needs SW shutdown we could probably come up with
something similar to a Fart Button that when pushed pops up a message
saying something like 'Are you saving to disk at this time?' 'Yes/No' and if
you answer No it then proceeds to tell you to push the computer power
button. (and farts).

You make it sound like we who want this feature are complete retards. I guess you are not aware of the fact that software and even OS itself might write to the disk at any moment these days?

And even modern filesystems with journaling can get corrupted when it is switched off like that.

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