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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
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Daedalus 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 14:21:16
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@bernd_afa

Quote:

bernd_afa wrote:

I think the env System of AOS (files in envarc) can be seem simular to windows registry.

But AOS is lots more transparent and when you use better env handlers as happy env its lots faster and need not so much ram as windows registry.



Well, I guess that's true at a high level, but at a low level the Amiga system is a bunch of separate files which can be manipulated in the normal way, including deleting them and replacing them. Also, writing to one of them doesn't leave the rest of them open to corruption. And, this won't have any massive impact on your system - you'll still be able to boot your Amiga, even if all the Envarc: files are missing...

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paolone 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 14:41:12
#62 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1083
From: Unknown

@Gebrochen

Quote:
SO long the instant off via the power button remains Amiga style, I dont care what they do. It must however not have a windows Shut Down sequence, otherwise they may as well send the OS to the Scrapyard IMHO.


Oh no! not this again!

I frankly don't understand why a clean shutdown procedure would be a mess for AmigaOS, since caching is quite common on modern hard drives and also modern filesystems are little more complicated (but safer) than the old ones. I don't understand why the old Amiga user should be against a procedure that would simply ensure that NO DATA are in the risk of being lost by a brute-force powering the system off. ACPI has been invented many years ago, and a quite light system like AmigaOS (and MOS and AROS) would only benefit using it, 'cos they'd use it instantly and take just 1 or 2 seconds to power down the system, not ages like it happens on other OSes.

And I am also with the idea of a "save state to disk" option before powering down the system. It would take the time to load it back to RAM at restart, but it would give you the exact same point you were when you shat down the system.

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Leo 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 15:06:49
#63 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

Surely no one would be so stupid to power off their computer while doing any of those things ! It is the ultimate in nanny computing if you have to allow for such idiocy

You're not doing anything. Your email client is in the background, and polling your smtp from time to time, downloading new emails...

It's not a question of being stupid, it's just that a lot of things are being written to disk at any time, weather you want it or not.

Not to mention if you forgot some hours ago you were working on some text file, pressing power button will loose everything. If there was such a shutdown procedure, it would bring a nice "you didn't save your work: do you want to exit anyway ?"...

It's a total loss of time to have to do that... unless we were back in a single task operating system... But I don't think it's the case.

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ajs 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 16:59:26
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1459
From: Surrey

@BillE

Quote:

BillE wrote:
@Leo

Quote:
What if your email program is receving an email while you power your computer off ?What if your webbrowser is writing something down to disk while you power it off ?



Surely no one would be so stupid to power off their computer while doing any of those things ! It is the ultimate in nanny computing if you have to allow for such idiocy

Quote:
Powering it down by hand isn't safe.


Of course it is and I like the way I can kill my Amiga by flicking the switch and not have to go through the painful way my Mac does it.

What about power cuts, you have no choice then - and they *do* happen.



+1 Bill I couldn't agree more, its bad enough with Windows, do the Shutdown walkaway, come back hours later to find that it hasn't shutdown because something some where threw a wobbly with the Amiga at least you know its OFF

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BigD 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 17:18:26
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5771
From: UK

@Leo

Quote:
It's not a question of being stupid, it's just that a lot of things are being written to disk at any time, weather you want it or not.


Why can't the user just look for disk activity, if needed use a task manager to stop email clients or other programs creating disk activity and push the power button. Shut down procedures are nannying and should not be implemented in AOS!!!!

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Amigo1 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 17:50:12
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1572
From: the Clouds

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Leo

Quote:
It's not a question of being stupid, it's just that a lot of things are being written to disk at any time, weather you want it or not.


Why can't the user just look for disk activity, if needed use a task manager to stop email clients or other programs creating disk activity and push the power button. Shut down procedures are nannying and should not be implemented in AOS!!!!


I fully agree

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Leo 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 18:07:18
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

Why can't the user just look for disk activity, if needed use a task manager to stop email clients or other programs creating disk activity and push the power button. Shut down procedures are nannying and should not be implemented in AOS!!!!

Because it's not a safe way to do so ?

I'm sure but I'd rather let the OS take care of that than having to look at my HD led (which computer may not have anyway)...

It's like looking at my car's tires to know when I can exit my car...

Why using the task manager to close the email client ?! Are you kidding ? This is the goal of the OS to do that... And how would you explain that to a newbie ?

Like "hey! wait, you have to be sure the led is off... and also that your has exited... how, and btw you should make sure you have saved all your work too. Wow, and kill the browser too, cause there may be some cache that needs to be written down..."

Now: what's the annoying part ? Clicking on "shut down" and wait, or doing the above steps ? Making sure you do not forget one of course !

Maybe you should stop thinking "habits" and start thinking 'usability" instead...

Last edited by Leo on 01-Dec-2009 at 06:09 PM.

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michalsc 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 18:40:16
#68 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 283
From: Germany

@Amigo1

Let me clarify one thing. Instead of shutting system down with either menu option or ACPI signal from power button you prefer manual shutdown?

Instead of letting system take care about filesystem caches, instead of letting system close nicely all currently running applications (email, IM, whatever else), instead of letting system to "look" at the disc activity by itself, you prefer to do all of it manually?

I mean, it's ok if you like it, but saying "if needed use a task manager to stop email clients or other programs creating disk activity" does not sound like a simple way to shut system down ;)

PS. During this discussions many people complained about long shutdown sequence of OSX/windows/Linux. Do you all sit in front of your machines and wait for shutdown to complete? I mean, when I'm ready with work I select shutdown, stand up and go away. I do not care to look at the monitor, no matter how long shutdown takes :) Why should I look at it? It's not exciting. Not at all ;)

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 19:50:56
#69 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@michalsc

Ditto. I don't think everyone understands exactly what "disk activity" means. Providing a safe power down mechanism will allow Hyperion to implement new performance features without sacrificing stability. Of course, if Hyperion can implement those features in a novel way without requiring a safe power down mechanism, more power to them. It would bring AmigaOS back to bleeding edge, where it hasn't been for many, many years.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 20:14:12
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

feature name update: "my shutdown" to "Amigashutdown"

@michalsc

>I'm ready with work I select shutdown, stand up and go away. I do not care to look at the monitor, no matter how long shutdown takes :) Why should I look at it?

Because it does not always work.

It would be nicer if one could just push the power button and the system shuts down before I rise up of the chair (2 seconds). That's the kind of shutdown I want.

If all work is already saved (like sane people do at work), it should only take one second longer if AOS saves a "snapshot" of running application (a memo of what was running), if user has set so in Amigashutdown prefs. But when enabled, I can continue from where I left the day earlier after booting up, without me needing to start same apps and open same files again.


Also when doing aplication development, I would have all my tools running, I compile myapp, I tell AOS to "snapshot", then I execute myapp -CRASH- / lock up. I power off and then on. AOS restores everything as it was before me executing myapp. (+perhaps shows me postmortem debug logs)

Last edited by KimmoK on 01-Dec-2009 at 08:14 PM.

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opi 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 20:18:26
#71 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@michalsc

Amigans never case to amaze me. In a bad way. As I once wrote that "I turn off computer by pulling a plug" is a "I go to sleep by hitting myself with a brick until I pass out".

People can post "AmigaOS is the easiest and most intuitive operating system on the face of the Earth" and then claim, in the same breath, "watch your LED, see if your journaling file system is in atomic state, watch your USB buffers, your network shares, and dozen of applications your run and the simply push power button! So simple!"

Guys, what planet are you from? On earth it's common knowledge to push power button and just walk away from your computer.

Why don't you go complain about other useless features from the future like TCP stack, composition engine, vector, anti aliased fonts with proper kerning and high resolution?

I can turn of any of my computers without proper procedure. And most of the time I'll be fine. But I'm not insane. Going on and on about "AmigaOS boots so fast" and "I can turn it off just by killing power" does not make AmigaOS special in any way that's important for anyone outside Amiga geekosphere.

Please, don't say "we know computers and junk, that's why we can say when it's safe to pull a plug". Because saying that you prefer to kill a OS ecosystem instead of gracefully handling ACPI event says you don't know about OS made after '95.

I think good chunk of you live in a past, still making a jokes about "press start to stop", "Now you can safely turn off your computer" and "Crashing Windows", "Complex Linux", "Toy-like MacOS". Throw "slow booting", ".DLL hell" and "RPM mess".

While you do that, we, on Earth, play and work and enjoy our computer experience, where you don't have care if your background process ended saving log file. If you wonder why people says "Amiga? Yeah, I loved Lemmings/SWOS" wonder no more. You're a bunch of people who protest ACPI in Amiga NG. That's just insane.

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opi 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 20:24:16
#72 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@KimmoK

Quote:
Because it does not always work.


I'd love to see that. Really. Make a video of your not busted computer that failed at shutting down. Damn. Last time I saw that, it was Windows'98 with dead disk.

Quote:
It would be nicer if one could just push the power button and the system shuts down before I rise up of the chair (2 seconds). That's the kind of shutdown I want.


That's what we do. We press button on the case (or close a lid) and we're done. It's not two seconds, it may be ten. Or eleven. Depends how much stuff OS has to do before quiting. Like I care. I'm already putting my boots.

Quote:
it should only take one second longer if AOS saves a "snapshot" of running application (a memo of what was running)


Amiga should have new slogan.

"Amiga: reinventing the wheel. Poorly."

You want suspend to RAM. Takes about a second on my cheap netbook. Takes another seconds to have it back on. But sure, ignore moder design, add something that will confuse people. Don't forget to woo them with screen dragging.

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michalsc 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 20:40:13
#73 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 283
From: Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:
>I'm ready with work I select shutdown, stand up and go away. I do not care to look at the monitor, no matter how long shutdown takes :) Why should I look at it?

Because it does not always work.


Never happened here. I'm using both windows and linux. How come? :)

Quote:
It would be nicer if one could just push the power button and the system shuts down before I rise up of the chair (2 seconds). That's the kind of shutdown I want.


Why do you assume it shall take longer? Because of comparison against windows (comparing apples with oranges again?). Simple flushing of all caches and shutting down running applications would take, on such lightweight OS, much less time, I guess.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 21:09:56
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

About shutdown not always working...

On Linux shutdown (by root rights) locks often up the whole system if Gnome session has crashed earlier.
On W98, sometimes there was DOS cursor blinking on the up left of the screen and it stayed there blinking untill power was cut off.
Also on MacMini the OSX shutdown locked up if DVD player had crashed earlier.

I do not remeber such problems with WinXP. But IIRC, if some application (and it's window can be lost outside visible screen) has unsaved work the shutdown stops when ordered from start menu. Does it not?
And as I've earlier said, SW shutdown started by pressing power button messes something up on the hard disk and WinXP does scandisk.

And I do not do any nasty stuff on my x86 or Mac computers. But I use computers a lot. I multitask a lot.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 21:20:58
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@michalsc

>Simple flushing of all caches and shutting down running applications would take, on such lightweight OS, much less time, I guess.

Right. That's what I try to say here & there.

(I think something like 250 milliseconds is a lot of time for any application to response to a "emergencysavenowwemightshutdown" command by "OK, doing that, wait Xs",
and after it has done the save, the application sends "OK, done",
and OS responds "killyourself" (OS will really shutdown soon ... in 500milliseconds?) or "relax & continue running" (the case of just making backup in case of nonmemoryprotectedOSdies or myapp divides by zero)

But if the application did not respond in 250milliseconds, it might be dead and can freely go to bitheaven, or it's old 68k app (not possible to freeze when we do not have sandbox for apps) and the decision is up to user to deside what is done (can be set in prefs: ignore, ask, sendterm, freezewholesystemRAMtoHDD)
If the application is EUAE, perhaps EUAE could do freezing of it's content (current WinUAE feature)

etc. etc. a lot to specify....

Finally OS waits disk activity to finish/tells filesystem to flush caches and powers off or whatever user wanted)

Last edited by KimmoK on 01-Dec-2009 at 09:36 PM.

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michalsc 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 21:29:52
#76 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 283
From: Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:
On Linux shutdown (by root rights) locks often up the whole system if Gnome session has crashed earlier.


I was hardly using Gnome. Ever. On linux with KDE i never had such issue. Consider either faulty gnome, or faulty hardware, or both.

Quote:
On W98, sometimes there was DOS cursor blinking on the up left of the screen and it stayed there blinking untill power was cut off.


I gave up using win98 some 9 years ago... Are you still using it?



Quote:
And as I've earlier said, SW shutdown started by pressing power button messes something up on the hard disk and WinXP does scandisk.


Once again. Consider faulty hardware. I'm using power button in most cases to trigger the shutdown sequence and I never had the trouble you mentions. Keep in mind I'm not regular user, rather some kind of developer ;)

PS. I have development machine accessed through NX sessions/ssh only. Once I'm ready with it, I press the power button. It triggers shutdown sequence of linux which is ready in 10 to 15 seconds. It never failed. Even if I have crashed some software on this machine. My laptop has both windows (for my wife) and linux (for me). My wife has prepared her desktop with all apps she needs. If the laptop has to be shut down, she hibernates windows. In the mean time I can successfully use linux, and, later, restore safely the hibernated state of windows. I saw scandisk on this machine few times only. All of them were because of my fiddling with NTFS partition (like resizing it on linux).

Once again, please consider broken hardware.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 21:41:38
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@michalsc

"I gave up using win98 some 9 years ago... Are you still using it?"

I use only Linux & AOS at home currently.
OSX is being replaced by MOS.
And 98 was replaced by Win2000 (replaced by XP, replaced by Wine)

Last edited by KimmoK on 01-Dec-2009 at 09:43 PM.

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 21:53:50
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Leo
If you are so desperate for a Shutdown procedure to prevent stuff from being accidentally written to disk, then you can write a script to do it quite easily. Some incomplete code for it:

Lock Sys: ON
Lock YourDrive: ON
...
Wait 2
ShowPic SystemIsSafeToShutDown

If a program tries to write to the disk, you now get a warning that it is write-protected, and you know you made a mistake. If you cancel the "shutdown" then you can modify the script to unlock the drives to allow the write to proceed.

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ChrisH 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 22:05:12
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@opi Quote:
People can post "AmigaOS is the easiest and most intuitive operating system on the face of the Earth" and then claim, in the same breath, "watch your LED, see if your journaling file system is in atomic state, watch your USB buffers, your network shares, and dozen of applications your run and the simply push power button! So simple!"


LOL, I don't remember reading ANYONE saying AmigaOS is the "easiest and most intuitive" OS, at least not in modern times. I say that AmigaOS is wonderful to use, but that's an entirely different claim (and quite subjective).

BTW, if you close all programs before you press the power button, then I really don't see the problem. Yes, it would be nice if there was a "close all apps" switch, so you could be sure.

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opi 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 22:09:31
#80 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@KimmoK

Quote:
On Linux shutdown (by root rights) locks often up the whole system if Gnome session has crashed earlier.


Sorry for derailing this thread further, but maybe we can solve this. By "Gnome session crash" you mean a part of Gnome (gnome-*) explodes or your XOrg locks up on you? I guess you run Linux on PowerPC, so maybe it's a gfx driver issue? When "Gnome locks" can you jump to TTY by pressing ALT+CTRL+F1? Can you restart your GDM session with /etc/init.d/gdm restart (that's in Debian/Ubuntu)? Can you isolate this crash? And if you can get to the console will "init 0" or "init 6" do the job?

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