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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
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opi 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 22:13:57
#81 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@ChrisH

Quote:
LOL, I don't remember reading ANYONE saying AmigaOS is the "easiest and most intuitive" OS, at least not in modern times. I say that AmigaOS is wonderful to use, but that's an entirely different claim (and quite subjective).


Too bad I'm going to sleep now, I'd look for quotes. I bet I could find some from last quoter!

Quote:
BTW, if you close all programs before you press the power button, then I really don't see the problem. Yes, it would be nice if there was a "close all apps" switch, so you could be sure.


But I'd rather have my power button generate a event that will inform application that we're going to die soon. Then we can show some helpful requests, like "The program on your second screen has still something that is not saved", your TCP stack could inform DHCP sever that IP is being released, your Samba shares could be closed, your NTFS disk could be cleanly unmounted. People can't just say "users are stupid, I'm smart, I know how to handle my stuff!" because in 2009 you can't and you shouldn't.

Last edited by opi on 01-Dec-2009 at 10:14 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 22:20:22
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@opi

>"Amiga: reinventing the wheel. Poorly."

So, there's not any room for improvement over windows way of doing it?

>But sure, ignore moder design, add something that will confuse people.

So, windows is the best, let's forget the rest, right?
Windows lover?


>You want suspend to RAM.

NO I DO NOT!

Suspend to RAM is the most unreliable thing to do. (often WinXP fails to re-initialize display afterwards, especially if video projector or another monitor was used before/after, etc. etc.)
(then comes sleep mode that saves whole gigabytes of used RAM to disk, without flushing caches etc. before freezing, slow, limitting, etc..)

Ofcourse, if user wants, it would be good if there is also the option to do the windows ways, but why not have other ways as well? (like the improved linux way)

In Linux I can shutdown and restart & continue work just like in suspend to RAM etc. more reliable, only slower. In the meanwhile I can change kernel etc. Or play a while with native icAROS.



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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 1-Dec-2009 22:36:57
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@opi

>>On Linux shutdown (by root rights) locks often up the whole system if Gnome session has crashed earlier.

update: the gnome session was in user rights

>Sorry for derailing this thread further, but maybe we can solve this. By "Gnome session crash" you mean a part of Gnome (gnome-*) explodes or your XOrg locks up on you?

No idea. The frozen Gnome environment is seen by ctrl+F7, but it is frozen (or it at least can not be accessed).
After shutdown command from commandline, ubuntu switches tu graphical output at some phase and soon Linux locks up totally.
(these has been in ubuntu since 7.10 and now I have 9.10)

> I guess you run Linux on PowerPC, so maybe it's a gfx driver issue?

AMD64x2 + Geforce7600GT + nvidia drivers
Only legal updates & installations from standard ubuntu repositories etc. No experimental stuff.

SO, I'm very sure shutdown is not yet absolutely perfect anywhere.

>When "Gnome locks" can you jump to TTY by pressing ALT+CTRL+F1? Can you restart your GDM session with /etc/init.d/gdm restart (that's in Debian/Ubuntu)? Can you isolate this crash? And if you can get to the console will "init 0" or "init 6" do the job?

After the shutdown finally locks, the only way to dig in seems to be serial port. (I'm not interested enough)

But one day I might need to save something (not the pårn), so I took your hints about trying to restart GDM, thank you for that.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 0:23:33
#84 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@KimmoK

Quote:
feature name update: "my shutdown" to "Amigashutdown"


No, that's trademark infringement. Hyperion could use some permutation of AmigaOS and shutdown if they were so inclined. (But "shutdown" isn't a word, so I wouldn't.) And please, no AmiShutdown. If I see one more bit of anything prefixed with Ami, I think I'll throw up.

Re: ACPI, it's a standard. Like almost all things related to the x86 architecture, it was sponsored in part by Microsoft. So what. If the standard can't be adapted directly by hardware vendors like ACube, there's still no reason to shun the state definitions and the reasoning behind them.

Also, you're confusing "sleep" and "hibernation," at least where ACPI is concerned. Sleep = S3 = suspend-to-RAM. Hibernation = S4 = suspend-to-disk. Apologies if you provided defintions for your use of the terms, and I missed them.

The state snapshots to which you refer could be implemented using pieces of both suspend-to-RAM and suspend-to-disk, depending on the resources available to you. Mainstream virtualization solutions already support features like this. I say rewrite the core of AmigaOS as a hypervisor, or borrow one from another vendor and use it to host Exec. You'd gain much of what you need, depending on the capabilities of the hypervisor and the included management software.

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Gebrochen 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 1:08:18
#85 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1410
From: Australia, VIC

@paolone

So, do you power down your TV? Electrical Appliance? Your coffee machine? Your Console?

Do you power down your Car? Unless it has a turbo, it needs a turbo timer.

Again, amiga does not need a turbo timer type shut down sequence, etc. IMHO.

I have nothing against what Kimmok said, I believe he is right, we should have a kind of state for the system, but one should make it optional. As I have not ever needed this shut down sequence shet in my life, but thats me.

Make it optional for users, is what I am saying, and everyone will remain pleased and happy. But dont force it upon users to have to comply with it, that would make me feel like I no longer have control over my own Operating system, and then I may as well use Windows as my daily, but NO

Instead I would then go away and use Linux for the rest of my life. But I dont want this to happen.

Cheers

Another note, I always prefer to start off with a clean slate, I dont want OWB, amiga writer, etc, etc opening everytime I boot up my system from a cold boot. That would make me feel like im driving an Automatic vehicle / car, I Love manual thanks.

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Gebrochen 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 1:21:12
#86 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1410
From: Australia, VIC

@KimmoK

QUOTE
@michalsc

>I'm ready with work I select shutdown, stand up and go away. I do not care to look at the monitor, no matter how long shutdown takes :) Why should I look at it?

Because it does not always work.

It would be nicer if one could just push the power button and the system shuts down before I rise up of the chair (2 seconds). That's the kind of shutdown I want.

If all work is already saved (like sane people do at work), it should only take one second longer if AOS saves a "snapshot" of running application (a memo of what was running), if user has set so in Amigashutdown prefs. But when enabled, I can continue from where I left the day earlier after booting up, without me needing to start same apps and open same files again.


Also when doing aplication development, I would have all my tools running, I compile myapp, I tell AOS to "snapshot", then I execute myapp -CRASH- / lock up. I power off and then on. AOS restores everything as it was before me executing myapp. (+perhaps shows me postmortem debug logs)
QUOTE


I fully agree to this Loigc, and my case stands with Kimmok on this one.

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Gebrochen 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 2:45:26
#87 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1410
From: Australia, VIC

@opi

Last time I saw it not shutting down and staying on was my Friends PC, running Windows XP.

How did we see it, we were still in the room discussing where to go out. 5 minutes later still on, and he was not impressed. And I was not surprised.

Cheers

EDIT
Sorry, gotta get my facts right, it was windows XP not Vista. Already changed the above.
END EDIT

Last edited by Gebrochen on 02-Dec-2009 at 03:11 AM.

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Trev 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 5:18:34
#88 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Gebrochen

It's very easy to write an application that prevents Windows from logging off the current console user and shutting down the system.

It's even easier to write an application that (for all intents and purposes) erases an Amiga hard disk when you push the power button. EDIT: Just ask Elbox.

Last edited by Trev on 02-Dec-2009 at 05:19 AM.

_________________
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borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 7:17:59
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Trev

Thank you for those hints.

I may have used wrong terms (but I'm sure they are done that way in some OS...)
I better talk only about "suspend-to-RAM", "suspend-to-disk", "shutdownwithsaveoption" and "saveall" etc.

All possible modes for Amig* ehhh, let's say "clevershutdown" -commodity application.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 7:25:54
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Gebrochen

>I always prefer to start off with a clean slate,

Then this now commodity would be the greatest, because starting from suspend would not be clean either. ;-P

>I dont want OWB, amiga writer, etc, etc opening everytime I boot up my system from a cold boot.
>That would make me feel like im driving an Automatic vehicle / car,

It could be set so that if you have the clevershutdownwhatever commodity in your startup sequence, you could set it to show small button on screen (after everything else is loaded) that "do you want to continue from last save/snapshot point" click on it -> autopilot. Do not click on it (or click elsewhere etc) -> it disappears and you have fresh system (snapshot files are there, if you happen to need them, but they are not on your way)

>I Love manual thanks.


@all

example of stability increase:
I could tell AOS to shutdownandsave when I go to get a cup of cofee.
When I come back AOS is back up & running and if I had set it to autostart from snapshot, I would have everything on the desktop ready for me, just the way I left it.
(except that all OS and application internal problems & memory fracmentation etc is gone)
I love manually to deside how I want my computer to power off and on. Not the way M$ or torvalds desided.

Last edited by KimmoK on 02-Dec-2009 at 07:37 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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Amigo1 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 7:51:36
#91 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1572
From: the Clouds

@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote:
@Leo/@ChrisH

I wonder. The hard disk LED on my sam440ep-flex flickers constantly, so I never know what it's actually doing. EDIT: I suspect something in OS4 is unnecessarily (or necessarily?) polling the disk.


I could think of samba, maybe it's writing to the logfile?

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Leo 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 8:13:51
#92 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

@Opi: I 100% agree :)

Nice funny way of explaining what I thought :)

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paolone 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 10:32:32
#93 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1083
From: Unknown

@Gebrochen

Quote:
So, do you power down your TV? Electrical Appliance? Your coffee machine? Your Console?


There is a little difference you haven't took in consideration: TV, electrical appliance, coffee machine and console ARE NOT my computer. All the devices above are supposed either to be turned off (notice: "turned off" is different from "shut down") anytime, or to be in a clearly not-working state while doing it. Neverthless, if I turn off my coffee machine while water is still flooding, and I don't remember to push the operate switch too, the next time I will turn on the machine, water will begin flowing again. And that's bad, since water wouldn't be enough hot, and I can throw away the coffee I placed in the apposite vain.

Moreover, most of the devices you're talking about aren't really turned off, but placed in stand-by. This is another little clue that should suggest you something when you approach to computers, which are complex electronical devices. Stand-by itself is better than turning off to put electric hardware in a safe state (at expence of some Wh in the electric bill), but doesn't cover software issues. Software issues like caches and temporary data in RAM must be written somewhere and the computer must know that you're turning it off. If you don't advise it, then all those temporary data will be lost forever.

That's true for any modern operating system and - sadly for you - it's true even for AmigaOS and derivatives. Instant turn off is possible, though, but don't ever believe it's safe. Your habits don't always coincide with the best way to do things, and if we could stop our classic Amigas long ago, it was only for the relative semplicity of the task they had to perform. Nothing modoern should be treated like that.

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Swoop 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 11:42:21
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 2157
From: Long Riston, East Yorkshire

@Thread

To save your current state when shutting down, couldn't we use existing AmigaOS methods?

If you Save your open docs to WBstartup and the deficons default tools are correctly set, wouldn't that return you to where you were?

Just a thought, and not necessarily thought through.

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"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't."

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Gebrochen 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 12:34:38
#95 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1410
From: Australia, VIC

@paolone

So I am oldskool in thought here, big deal.

So long the end user gets to decide and control every part of their operating system amiga, then I dont care what they throw at the OS.

But the moment it reminds me Tooooooooo much of windows, I would consider switching to either Mac or linux permanently. Not good, as then there are two OS'es I must avoid at all costs in my home life.

Basically, I have my reasons for liking the Amiga system, many things are logically set out, in black and white, and controllable generally by the end user, with no automatic crap, If I dont want to update a particular program because I dont use it anymore, my amiga system wont pester me or remind me about it.

Now you say, you can permanently ask windows not to display message again for each individual program, by checking the "do not display again" box, but that is besides the point, so many things come up automatically, that it is a brainless way of using an OS, and many people only turn on their computers, do some things, and turn off, maybe due to lack of control, I dont know.

I remember when I was using windows everyday inclusive of at home, since 1995 when A1000 wasnt cutting it for my school work, then I got this Amiga System OS4.x, and voila, dont ask me why or how, or even what changed, but I suddenly did not have time to just play games, I actually wanted to do something, anything, and not turn it off until I had to go to bed every night.

Be it writing, mucking around with programs, testing software, research on the internet, etc, etc.

Cheers

P.S. I dont mind what i use at work, I get paid to use whatever OS they chuck at me.

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Gebrochen 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 12:37:38
#96 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1410
From: Australia, VIC

@KimmoK

Quote:
@Gebrochen

>I always prefer to start off with a clean slate,

Then this now commodity would be the greatest, because starting from suspend would not be clean either. ;-P

>I dont want OWB, amiga writer, etc, etc opening everytime I boot up my system from a cold boot.
>That would make me feel like im driving an Automatic vehicle / car,

It could be set so that if you have the clevershutdownwhatever commodity in your startup sequence, you could set it to show small button on screen (after everything else is loaded) that "do you want to continue from last save/snapshot point" click on it -> autopilot. Do not click on it (or click elsewhere etc) -> it disappears and you have fresh system (snapshot files are there, if you happen to need them, but they are not on your way)

>I Love manual thanks.

@all

example of stability increase:
I could tell AOS to shutdownandsave when I go to get a cup of cofee.
When I come back AOS is back up & running and if I had set it to autostart from snapshot, I would have everyt


Agree, but I like what swoop said, to try and keep it the amiga way of doing things when implementing new or existing ideas onto our platform.

_________________
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CD32 / SX1 Expansion
A500 with HxC & 1mb Chip Ram, Flicker Fixer Box
C=OS (Usa) Laptops
MorphOS PowerBook G4
AROS / AmiPUP Netbook
A1000 with 1.5MB RAM.
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Swoop 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 14:34:19
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 2157
From: Long Riston, East Yorkshire

@Swoop

Quote:
If you Save your open docs to WBstartup and the deficons default tools are correctly set, wouldn't that return you to where you were?

I've just tried this with a Turbocalc spreadsheet, and it works!!!

I set up a def_icon in env/sys, with Turbocalc as the default tool.
I had to set Turbocalc to save files with an icons.
I then had to set the .TCD file info to "not" wait until finish.

and hey! presto, it worked.

I had a couple of problems, one was the no wait option, I wonder if this can be set automatically?
Even though the def_tcd file was set to open Turbocalc it didn't do so until Turbocalc saved the file with an icon, so I am not sure which option made this work.

To further this, could this be set up via a arexx/python script to read workbench/system details to determine what programs are running and save their currently open files to WBStartup?

_________________
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persia 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 14:48:41
#98 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1059
From: Unknown

@Gebrochen

How manual do you want AmigaOS? Do you want to open to a terminal and have to type LoadWB? Do you have anything in your startup-sequence? Unless you're typing 1s and 0s into a computer using front panel switches you've accepted some sort of automatic control of your computer. Do you program in Obj C, C++, C# or C rather that binary assembler? Indeed isn't the GUI just another automatic way of viewing files and loading programs?

Shutdown gives you two things. It allows you to save work that you might otherwise have lost and it allows the system to cleanly close any files it might have open. Had AmigaOS actually survived and thrived through the nineties it would not have entered this century without a shutdown button. It is really because AmigaOS has lived in suspended animation for all those years that this is a debatable question.

What's interesting is that an OS that began embracing change and the future now stands in the exact opposite situation, resisting change and the future. Who'd have thought that would be the case?

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Leo 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 15:08:42
#99 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

What's interesting is that an OS that began embracing change and the future now stands in the exact opposite situation, resisting change and the future. Who'd have thought that would be the case?

Well, there was a time Amiga'OS was quite advanced. So people used that as an advantage... Then it became outdated. So what's left ? The difference. So people started to say it is better because it is different...

Amiga users have always been against innovation and change. AGA wasn't adopted when it was released... Then there was Graphics Cards. But eventually people used it. Then there was 3D. But now people adopted it... Guess it will be the same for shutdown process. But it's probably too early.

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Daedalus 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 2-Dec-2009 15:12:57
#100 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Swoop

It's possible I guess, but your script would have to be aware of every applications that was open and that you wanted to check. Years ago I had a "Shutdown" Arexx script which would try to quit a number of apps in sequence, such as Yam, Wordworth, Miami etc. This meant I was sure I could kill the power without write accesses going on, but it would be nice to be also able to shut down the power with such a script. It should also be possible to save the files to the WBStartup drawer, and even copy in some shutdown-specific icons to avoid messing with default icons etc.

If I were to write such functionality into the script, I'd also save a sort of log file somewhere of what files were actually copied in, and generate a script to delete the files once they were already successfully opened. Otherwise you'll end up with bunches of old versions of your files opening on startup...

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