@Crumb Quote:

Since AROS advanced way more than OS3.1 I don't think it's needed any longer (except for those who care about names).

I think that AROS is potentially a nice "backup" option, but I still much prefer OS4 at the moment (more & better apps, more polished, more advanced, no need to use UAE for system-friendly 68k apps, etc).

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@Crumb Quote:

Crashing the OS with a small app ruins all the user experience

Hmmm, then don't run that small app?!? "Doctor, my arm hurts when I do this." "Well, don't do it!"

In general I find OS4 to be quite stable (allowing for Sam's current USB problem). Even when apps do crash, they generally do NOT bring the entire system down, although in some cases (E-UAE) it can be a good idea to do a soft reboot (takes 5 seconds).

Quote:

Some amiga users put an exaggerated importance in the booting time compared to other OSes because they think people is still running Win95. Most computer OSes don't need to reboot their systems

Now that's just stupid: No one would think people still run Win95, and you are justing flame baiting.

Quote:

Since most computer users can use right now USB2.0

And so what? AmigaOS (and AROS and MorphOS) lack some things that Windows/etc have, but if we don't need them (or don't find them that important), then no problem.

And well, if I want to run some latest 3D game, or whatever, I can just press a couple of keys to make my KVM switch me over to Windows (not forgetting to wait several minutes for Windows Vista to finish un-hibernating & finish recaching stuff).

Quote:

Anyway... some of the things you value so much are not valued by most of the world:

Again, and so what? I like how AmigaOS4 feels in use, and I hate how Windows feels (although XP is much much better than the crashy mess that was 98.)

Last edited by ChrisH on 22-Dec-2009 at 09:24 AM.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@itix
While ownership of AmigaOS has been up in the air for a while, we now know who is the designated company that will move forward the system.

Some here must have mistaken that time lapse with things such as "Amiga was abandoned", "Amiga is dead" or "Amiga is a Hobby system developed by the fans".

So let's recap: Amiga in the mid 90s turned into an OS running on non Commodore HW, even in 1993 when running on my A2000 through an Accelerator board that copies the Kickstart in the board's faster ram, and has CPU,FPU, Ram, HD and even a graphic card connector on it, we can say that the OS is fully running on non Commodore HW (let alone Phase5 accelerator with B-Vision, PCI bus-boards etc).
When Commodore went bankrupt the fate of AmigaOS passed through different "hands" till falling in Hyperion hands with the recent settlement.

During this odyssey AmigaOS was not developed steadily and ended up falling behind on many instances.

Yet AmigaOS is today what it always was, and finally steady development will begin again.

Dream worlds where AmigaOS is an abandoned HobbyOS that belongs to the community are just that. (Dream worlds that is).

AmigaOS is a very complex commercial Operating System that had big troubles and its finally being developed steadily again.

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote: @all I am surprised that no-one has mentioned this OS News item yet: http://www.osnews.com/story/22638/My_OS_Is_Less_Hobby_than_Yours His method of deciding "hobby OS" status seems less subjective.

Sure the method it was described on OSNews is more objective...

But It is beyond ny capabilities to comprehend why Thom Holwerda focuses only on Amiga costune folklore trivia such as this discussion, rather than just focus on the facts of our platfom.

And it is beyond my comprehension why in OSNews all newsers are capable to mention Amiga even where the news are totally unrelated with our platform

(here:)

http://www.osnews.com/story/22574/Ten_Brands_That_Will_Disappear_in_2010

...just being able to tie the name of Amiga again with fallen firms and obsolete technologies about to die, and making some silly humor upon our community and our faith in the best Operating System ever.

Could someone who has god good common sense being capable to explain me why this David Adams guy just mentioned Amiga together with the "Ten Brands that will disappear in 2010"?

Perhaps Is it possible that David Adams newser for OSNews has his a** on flame and it is burning in pain for the fact Amiga is still alive here facing A.D. 2010 and maybe being available still for more and more years?

Last edited by Raffaele on 22-Dec-2009 at 10:09 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 22-Dec-2009 at 10:08 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 22-Dec-2009 at 10:06 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@ChrisH

As I said, what you find to be good enough is not good enough for average Joe.

Quote:

Now that's just stupid: No one would think people still run Win95, and you are justing flame baiting.

Then I don't see why so much interest in quick booting. As long as it's less than a minute it's ok for most of people since they won't reboot. In contrast they can get quite angry if their browser makes them lose a document they were typing.

Quote:

And so what? AmigaOS (and AROS and MorphOS) lack some things that Windows/etc have, but if we don't need them (or don't find them that important), then no problem.

Sure, but bashing Windows file copying when you can only reach 1MB/s using USB is kinda desperate.

Quote:

And well, if I want to run some latest 3D game, or whatever, I can just press a couple of keys to make my KVM switch me over to Windows (not forgetting to wait several minutes for Windows Vista to finish un-hibernating & finish recaching stuff).

So you switch from your hobby OS to a modern OS.

Quote:

Again, and so what? I like how AmigaOS4 feels in use, and I hate how Windows feels (although XP is much much better than the crashy mess that was 98.)

Nothing wrong with you enjoying your hobby. My point is that if even I enjoy fishing with a spear it won't make it the most effective and modern fishing method, it will be a hobby.

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@Wol

Quote:

My fully loaded A4000 Crashed last month, first time in 6 years; not bad considering it's used everyday.

Are you running Linux on your A4000? If you had no single crash in 6 years I'm fairly sure you were not using AmigaOS3.0, Os3.1, OS3.5, OS3.9 or OS4.0

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@KimmoK

Quote:

"Broken computer. " Then every dell compuer is broken. Whe see same phenomenom in every workstation @ work. It gets worse the more CPU power the HW has. (8threads 100% loaded makes the desktop totally unusable. One has to use another computer in the meanwhile.) After the load drops, the desktop becomes usable again.

Oh no. This argument again. Please, please stop it. In my life I saw too many suckers believe they were the best computing experts, using too many poorly configured computers running things they shouldn't run, and blaming at Microsoft 'cos Windows sucked. They are the first people to blame, but they simply ignore this.

I saw people running two antiviruses, a firewall and two anti-malware agents on PC that rarely connected to the Internet, just because someone told 'em to do that and "maybe using 2 is safer". Oh my god! No, using that crap ISN'T safer. Creating two different users profiles and use administrator priviledges only for mantainance IS. Logging as admin only to set up software and use them as normal user IS. Installing only software that is really needed, and care about the others to be sure they don't start up together with Windows IS. Please have a look at your startup-sequence and user-startup files: would you allow unuseful and/or silly software run every time at startup, or not? The same goes for Windows, which is PRETTY FAST switching from a task to another, considering that often it has to load the necessary data from the virtual memory.

And, also, before blaming windows to suck while switching tasks, please consider how much memory and processor power has to be allocated to perform those tasks. Maybe, in the eventuality that a corresponding software is available for the Amiga platform, AmigaOS, MOS and AROS would just crash or tell the user there's no enough memory available. There are pros and cons in any software architecture.

regards

p.bes

@Crumb

OS3.9 CS 060/604e 128Mb

Quad monitor
+VlabMotion
and lots of other stuff..


Wol.

_________________
It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.~Albert Einstein

@itix

Quote:

Made by professionals for professionals In fact (to my surprise) C64 was even used to control manufacturing process at some sites... it was small, solid and reliable piece of hardware and software.

Hey. About 15 years ago (it was 1995 or so) I've been in charge to summarize the result of a poll between the readers of the magazines I was working on. There was no web at the time and all answers came on paper, so I had to manually insert them on a computer. I had no doubt what computer I should use to do so: my old cheer Commodore 128 with a simple disk drive and a BASIC program I wrote by myself. End of the story: I got all the results I needed in the right times. That has been a "professional use" of a computer which was once considered like a toy, and that wouldn't have anything different from a hobby in 1995 or so.

Honestly, you can use any tool you prefer to do a task, the only important thing is that you know how to perform that task with the tool you chose. If I had the necessary knowledge, I could hack a toy computer and let it control a numeric controlled machine in a factory. Once the job has been done, it doesn't absolutely matter what you used to perform the task.

This, however, doesn't leverage the toy computer, the C128 or any other under-powered or not-generally-used solution to be different from a hobby, which is - for most of us - the use we do of Amiga or Amiga-like computers or operating system. When I have to work with my netbook I boot Windows XP. When I simply have to surf the web, I boot Icaros since it lets me browse the web in less time.

Last edited by paolone on 22-Dec-2009 at 01:47 PM.

@paolone
The fact that people choses to make of a troubled commercial OS "their hobby" does not turn that commercial endeavor into a "HobbyOS".

A HobbyOS is an amateurish work that a bunch of friends would make after uniting one afternoon in their garage deciding to start the fun ride.

The fact that AmigaOS is currently behind other major OSs has nothing to do with Hobby, nor the OS was abandoned. It is still actively developed copyrighted software and both a minor (4.1.1) and major (MAP) developments are under way.

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@paolone

Again. OS professional is telling us that it's somehow user's fault?

(Your comments are almost identical to what Piru said elsewhere.)

>Oh no. This argument again. Please, please stop it. In my life I saw too many suckers believe they were the best computing experts, using too many poorly configured computers running things they shouldn't run, and blaming at Microsoft 'cos Windows sucked. They are the first people to blame, but they simply ignore this.

Windows behaviour has been the same @ work for almost two decades now. I guess the IT department needs to be fired. (this time it's not IBM people, not that it made any difference before...)

>... administrator priviledges only for mantainance ...

Our work now reuires admin rights on every SW R&D person (on windows, that is). But windows was the same also before admin rights. I've installed only what is officially supported via IT support, always.
(funny that @ home freshly installed win always got pretty soon similar symptoms)

And our laboratory workstations are maintained by lab personell. Also they behave identically.
Perhaps those people need to be fired as well.

> Please have a look at your startup-sequence and user-startup files: would you allow unuseful and/or silly software run every time at startup, or not?

Of course not. Neither on windows.
(startup folder is always empty on my windows boxes (if possible), but @home some stuff seem to start anyway as long as I have the HW driver somewhere in the system, like canon scanner tools)

> Windows, which is PRETTY FAST switching from a task to another, considering that often it has to load the necessary data from the virtual memory

No it does not.
Just tried to tick volume control on the task bar. It took about 2 seconds to respond at all. (CPU load 0%, 2,7G free RAM)
Very pathetic for the OS on a 2x2+Ghz HW, I think.


(btw. is it possible to really disable virtual memory in Vista or Win7? On XP and other older NT derivates the swap continues to be used no matter what.)



>And, also, before blaming windows to suck while switching tasks, please consider how much memory and processor power has to be allocated to perform those tasks. Maybe, in the eventuality that a corresponding software is available for the Amiga platform, AmigaOS, MOS and AROS would just crash or tell the user there's no enough memory available. There are pros and cons in any software architecture.

A lot of OSs perform better with just 10% of the HW performance.

The design of windows is just totally wrong. And a lot of limitations still hamper daily work. (eg. the obscure default resource limitations & not enough memory errors, kernel messing up real SW priorities (application priority change does not have the effect it does on RTOS or AOS, etc..)
The design of Linux and BSD is towards servers, so also they tend to need tweaking before they start to serve the user (and not just themself).

(btw, to me it seems that Windows desktop stability is beyond gnome desktops, but windows(XP) just is slower almost everywhere)


IMO: There is some room for properly user serving OS.

Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Dec-2009 at 02:30 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Dec-2009 at 02:27 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Dec-2009 at 02:20 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

Of course not. Neither on windows. (startup folder is always empty on my windows boxes, but @home some stuff seem to start anyway as long as I have the HW driver somewhere in the system)

Ever heard of msconfig.exe?

Quote:

The design of windows is just totally wrong. And a lot of limitations still hamper daily work. (eg. the obscure default resource limitations & not enough memory errors, kernel messing up real SW priorities (application priority change does not have the effect it does on RTOS or AOS, etc..)

RTOSes are usually designed to have an unfair scheduler, as priorities in that case mean that the task absolutely must run. About AOS, well, no desktop OS uses static priorities nowadays, Windows, Linux, OS X, all of them use dynamic priorities.

Last edited by Zardoz on 22-Dec-2009 at 02:24 PM.

_________________

@Zardoz

>Ever heard of msconfig.exe?

No.

But I'll check that
(also at home that is, here @ work I just checked, there's 20 of those 8 letter acronyms + .exe files that are started, 99% tell me nothing what they are, better inspect their path, I wish windows had more than 8+3 letters, in binaries, libraries, etc..., but no.... then there seems to be 50+ services ... I bet I do not need much of those, but they belong to default setup that I'm not allowed to touch without a good reason, etc...)

(it seems it is only accessible from "command promp" as default. Same as regedit etc etc etc... strange. ...)


Update: on AOS (most likely in every flawor, as long as Happy env or similar exists, IIRC, it improved startup speed a lot when I had my MAX setup on A2000, loong time ago) one can have thousand(s) of installed applications and hundred background processess without system slowdown. Unlike on W*. (not to mention the re-installation need / lack of it in emergency situation).

>no desktop OS uses static priorities nowadays, Windows, Linux, OS X, all of them use dynamic priorities.

Yes. And it shows.
The optimum is inbetween. And the user must have the option to set them if needed.
For example AOS68+executive was awesome combination. Best of both worlds.

Most likely, to beat 68k+executive, the OS might need to have true microkernel design (+perhaps HW support), so that no sh*t is run in kernel space (very unlike W & L).
(and IIRC, what MOS gurus have taught me, PPC has advantage if real microkernel + protected memoryspaces were used)


update...
Enough grazy looking talk by me (?)
Have to go.
(just had to reinstall whole R&D SW package because myapp.exe could not find existing *.dll files (no reason), lost all environment settings etc... but that's usual. Another day another redoeverysetting again. btw. the snoopdos of M$ can be sometimes very usefull: the depends.exe It is also a hidden M$ application accessible from command line.)

Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Dec-2009 at 03:11 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Dec-2009 at 02:56 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Dec-2009 at 02:54 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Dec-2009 at 02:47 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

There usually is a good reason most of those services are there, mainly an interrelation and interdependence that collectively provides APIs your software uses. You can disable some of them for sure though.

About the 8+3 stuff, Windows 7 has far better descriptions of processes, including services, in the task manager.

_________________

@ChrisH

Quote:

Quote: Crashing the OS with a small app ruins all the user experience Hmmm, then don't run that small app?!? "Doctor, my arm hurts when I do this." "Well, don't do it!"

Exactly the same reason why nobody need antivirus programs on Windows. Visit only safe websites, do not execute wormy email attachments and stick with the safe software only. 100% virus free Windows guaranteed.

@paolone

Quote:

Honestly, you can use any tool you prefer to do a task, the only important thing is that you know how to perform that task with the tool you chose. If I had the necessary knowledge, I could hack a toy computer and let it control a numeric controlled machine in a factory. Once the job has been done, it doesn't absolutely matter what you used to perform the task.

Indeed. Every computer can be used for professional work and every computer can be used as a hobby or for fun stuff.

@DAX

Quote:

A HobbyOS is an amateurish work that a bunch of friends would make after uniting one afternoon in their garage deciding to start the fun ride.

What is professional then? I am an embedded software developer at my day job and at the work we dont make releases at nights, weekends or christmas holidays. Guess why?

Last edited by itix on 22-Dec-2009 at 03:18 PM.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@DiskDoctor

If you're only using AmigaOS at home, then you're not playing any games, unless you have a PS3/XBOX on the side.

_________________
X5000 / microA1(OS4.1 FE U2) / CodeBench / Imagine / Blender
Lightwave 2019 / Microsoft Visual C++

@paolone

"only important thing is that you know how to perform that task with the tool you chose. "

Every KISS AOS have advantage in that regard. When the OS is easy to master, you can get the thing done easier.

It's insane what amount of work need to be put in windows problems/learning/support/waiting @ work, just because our testing environment (untill now) uses it. There is no such problems in the target RTOS.

But the simple *OS need to have also tools ....

(in perfect world, 1% of wasted IT money would have been spent in getting the simple OS modernized, resulting huge savings in the long term, instead companies buy complex operating systems that exist ONLY to generate M$ revenue)

@thinkchip
There are tens of thousands of games that run on Amigas (native+emulated).
It just depends on what games you need/want to play.

(part of the reason why I have also Ubuntu and x86 is that it has wine and I can multitask while any windows game is run)

Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Dec-2009 at 03:25 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 22-Dec-2009 at 03:21 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@itix
I don't know why, games are sometimes released at midnight or during Chrismas Holydays (heck Final Fantasy X was released just before New year's eve).

2 years from now we will have a clearer idea of where AmigaOS will stand, at the moment it is moving once again into a concrete state of continuous development from just a few weeks (11 weeks to be precise) it would be great if people would stop to act as if nothing happened.

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@Crumb Quote:

As I said, what you find to be good enough is not good enough for average Joe.

Yes, and where did I ever deny that? In fact where did I ever mention the subject AT ALL? (Hint: I didn't.)

Quote:

Nothing wrong with you enjoying your hobby.

Again, where did I ever disagree that it was a "hobby"? (I in fact said that the whole argument was pointless, since no one is going to agree on the definition of "hobby OS".)

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@KimmoK

In addition to MSConfig we also have the wonderful RegEdit. If you don't want anything you install to be started when you boot up you can change the rights of the "Run*" folders. But remember to change the rights again when you want to install something. It's strange you don't know msconfig as it's very comfortable to disable services and programs.

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ