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      /  XMOS - what is it all about?
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DAX 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 13:58:55
#161 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Hammer
Once upon a time Hammer discovered that PCs are better than Amiga. Now he can't stand those that still haven't realized "Za Truthhh", and he is here on a mission.
Convince the Amiga crowd to join the Borgs! (we are Intel, Resistance is Futile! ).

I could go out repeating that having Xcore standard will make people use it on Amiga, while all the optionals in the world does not entice any particular focus on other platforms, I could say that, moreover, Xcore is just something more on X1000, which enriches it (makes it a playful machine actually) without precluding other tecnologies such as GP-GPU. I could add many other things....

After seeing you participating in every Amiga thread (including those relating to classics) with an ALL-OUT crusade at demonstrating how Amiga is inferior to PCs I believe you have a serious problem.

Relax.

We don't know everything about this computer and before telling everyone how in fact A-eon are but a bunch of morons for doing this and that, I would question my motives as of "why" I'm doing it at all. Illuminate the ignorants? Tell them PC this and PC that even though they might be posting from a 2000 eur PC rig? (hint).

Come on...

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neonlite 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about?
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 14:20:41
#162 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Oct-2004
Posts: 100
From: Croatia

@Hyperionmp

just produce some killer App that uses the capabilities of Xena to go bundeled with X1000 or all this effort and momentum hype will be in vain...

I see new users interested (see post from MacSociety for ex.),which even never used an Amiga...

but with a system and an OS only,they won't "bite the worm"...
at least not in significant numbers to make the Leap for AOS4

you must show out the edge Difference for which they would buy and become a user...

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BigBentheAussie 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about?
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 15:28:55
#163 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

@neonlite

The X1000 board probably has many industrial uses it could be sold for. For instance, utilising Xena, it becomes simple to develop fast communications data conversion between proprietary protocols used in manufacturing equipment. That is, if I understood correctly what one manufacturer presenting at XLinkers had on his wish list. Obviously, there are many uses for XCores on their own, but there are likely to be many uses for leveraging a full desktop computer architecture to obtain the best of both worlds, of both parallelism and conventional software logic.

This probably isn't a big deal to the general consumer though, but does raise hope that these alternative markets will allow them to lower costs through economies of scale.

Looking to the future, it is within the realm of possibility, that the next generation of XMOS chips will feature a faster clock rate, more cores, more memory and an FPU. That we may be upgrading our X1000s by purchasing a card containing 16 or more of these XMOS chips, you simply plug into your Xorro port. And, with the potential to attach one or more of these XMOS boards together, suddenly your PPC chip won't be the thing you'll be most interested in, it will be your co-processors. Which seems only fitting for an Amiga.

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minator 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about?
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 21:22:27
#164 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@Hyperionmp

Quote:
No immediate connection with the old bridgeboards from Commodore.



Hmm, wonders if a custom Minimig in in the works...

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retro 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about?
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 21:30:15
#165 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Dec-2003
Posts: 1046
From: Unknown

@minator

102400 MIPS with 256 cores right ???

isent 102400 MIPS about 2,3 gigahertz ????

but yeah sweet iff the main cpu runs at 2.5

hey maby it will be posible to trow in a cpu card on an pci slot too ???

Last edited by retro on 13-Jan-2010 at 09:30 PM.

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Zardoz 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about?
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 22:29:12
#166 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@umisef

Quote:
Anyone got any idea what the idle power consumption of the XCore development kits? And how it compares to, say, an Arduino?


Dunno about the single core one, I have a first generation quad core one (was bought at a conference before it got released) and it is hot as bleeding hell. I hope they've sorted that out now.

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ne_one 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about?
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 23:05:02
#167 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:
I find it difficult to believe that they didn't start on this project before contacted by A-eon


I think many people are likely overestimating the contribution that A-eon has made to the hardware. Sourcing out an appropriate solution in no way diminishes its value and is much wiser given the economy of scale.

Conversely, A-eon/Hyperion may also be able to contribute expertise from the software side and secure additional revenue streams from the supplier.

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Karlos 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about?
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 23:33:08
#168 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2652
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

I'm guessing that Hyperion have some notion of what they want to do with the XMOS chip already. It's a comparatively inexpensive component, but you wouldn't put one on a motherboard just for the hell of it.

Secondly, the board probably isn't any kind of rebranded development platform for designing XMOS apps, since you'd not need a full ATX board with dual DDR, PCIe etc. for that.

As for what the device may be used for, all the suggestions of 68k emulation, custom chip emulation, stream decoding etc. seem to be impractical propositions to me, given that the device has a relatively low instruction throughput, internal memory and there's not much in that department that you'd not be able to achieve faster in software on the main CPU.

Whatever it is to be used for, I expect it'll probably be more to do with having low latency and flexible IO configurations than raw processing speed.



Last edited by Karlos on 13-Jan-2010 at 11:33 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 23:42:44
#169 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4357
From: Australia

@vidarh

Quote:

Irrelevant. The Xcore isn't intended to run an OS,

Oh well, it’s an extra I/O chip.

On the subject of RT, I don’t recall AOS4.x being a proper RTOS.

Quote:

and I don't see a rush of Amiga users flocking to X86 to run IcAROS. Even if there is, the Xcore in the X1000 obviously has no bearing on users that choose to run IcAROS on off the shelf x86 hardware, so continuing to discuss the x86 in that context is pretty pointless

Did you forget AW.net's user surveys/polls on computing hardware platforms?

http://amigaworld.net/modules/xoopspoll/pollresults.php?poll_id=92

Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2010 at 11:54 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2010 at 11:52 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2010 at 11:50 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2010 at 11:47 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2010 at 11:43 PM.

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Ancalimon 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about?
Posted on 13-Jan-2010 23:54:18
#170 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 433
From: Istanbul

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
As for what the device may be used for, all the suggestions of 68k emulation, custom chip emulation, stream decoding etc. seem to be impractical propositions to me, given that the device has a relatively low instruction throughput, internal memory and there's not much in that department that you'd not be able to achieve faster in software on the main CPU.

Whatever it is to be used for, I expect it'll probably be more to do with having low latency and flexible IO configurations than raw processing speed.


I guess it'll be extremely useful in about 100 years. For example, calculating which parts of a spaceship's shield it should give more strength to in case of an attack on the spaceship. (that should need really low latency calculation)
But today I can't really see any uses (right now)

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Hammer 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 0:03:58
#171 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4357
From: Australia

@DAX

Quote:

After seeing you participating in every Amiga thread (including those relating to classics) with an ALL-OUT crusade at demonstrating how Amiga is inferior to PCs I believe you have a serious problem

Another a.org joystick rerun...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 0:22:02
#172 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12197
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:
On the subject of RT, I don?t recall AOS4.x being a proper RTOS.


AmigaOS does not need to be, XMOS can be programmed to run by it self, and do things AmigaOS does not even know about.

I suggest you check out what XMOS is used for on youtube,
I know there is video there showing XMOS used as Oscilloscope, if thats not real time then I don't know what is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_rxEcsORyU

XMOS chip can be used to do stuff normally you waste CPU cycles on.
not even MS Windows is RTOS.



Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Jan-2010 at 12:24 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Jan-2010 at 12:22 AM.
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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 0:37:52
#173 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12197
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:
Did you forget AW.net's user surveys/polls on computing hardware platforms?


I think thats irrelevant,

I used A PC before did buy my AmigaONE-XE, so that comment is irrelevant and off topic, and given Hyperion stands on issue way even bring it up.

Many don't even know AmigaOS4 exits, some don't even care for the OS, and some just like to emulate classic games on WinUAE, even DOSBOX will do that.


Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Jan-2010 at 12:47 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Jan-2010 at 12:40 AM.

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Zylesea 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 0:59:28
#174 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2223
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
On the subject of RT, I don?t recall AOS4.x being a proper RTOS.


AmigaOS does not need to be, XMOS can be programmed to run by it self, and do things AmigaOS does not even know about.


But then you still have the issues raised in post no. 157 (and several times before). The RT capabilites rely only on the things running directly on the XMOS. Whenever the XMOS chip has to communicate with the host system it depends on an interrupt and the according handling of that by the host system. So I still fail to see the benefit in soldering it to the mobo instead of using a PCI(e) card- or I2C, centronics or RS232 or even usb (the latter a bit slow and complicated though).
The usb kits start at 50 US$.

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minator 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about?
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 1:08:49
#175 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@retro

I don't mean the XMOS chips doing the emulation, I'm wondering if they are doing a Minimig on a board with the XMOS chip acting as an interface between the two. You'd send video through the PCIe slot and the rest would go via the XMOS chip.


I reckon the PPC will run around 2GHz.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 1:24:45
#176 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12197
From: Norway

@Zylesea

You do know that XMOS chip can run treads don't you, as showed you in the youtube video, can handle to tow way communications, input analog, and output on Ethernet at the same time, it all depends on the how the XMOS pins are connected, as we did not design the motherboard we don't know if will conflict whit motherboard bus or not.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Jan-2010 at 03:40 PM.

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Zylesea 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 2:08:09
#177 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2223
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@NutsAboutAmiga

But this nice oscilloscope demonstrations just shows that it works nicely on teh XMOS chip, but doesn't do any magic with the host OS, i.e doesn't make the OS an RTOS. The oscilloscope on its own works RT, but it does so regardless how it is hooked up to the host. And that's still my main point: Where is the benefit of soldering the chip directly to a (rather obscure) mobo, instead of just using cheap usb boards like the guy who did the oscilloscope?
He did it with an usb kit and a laptop. No special mainboard involved.
I did time critical things with a UEI pci PowerDAQ I/O board some years ago. I didn't had to care whether windows is stupid, you could program event driven - as long as you stay on the board and don't need windows in between. I.e.not rely on a calculation done on the host processor triggered by an event, because then you are in trouble (read mess around with windows timing (which is no fun at all)).
And when I recently migrated my work computer from a P4 to a C2D I just plugged the PCI card and inserted it to the bog standard new maschine from Dell.
But a company like UEI, NI or DT may like the XMOS - for their DAQ boards this chip seems pretty nice.

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BigBentheAussie 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 3:30:18
#178 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Zylesea

Yeah, but I wonder what happens when you have Xena applications controlled from an OS, and if that somehow expands possibilities somewhat. It may seem like overkill for a lot applications we can conceive of, but a complete desktop architecture with its oodles of RAM and interactive possibilities might be a must for some markets. Look at the uses for general motherboards in a lot of areas and then think of how they can be enhanced by having real-time IO coupled with a UI that allows for configurability on the fly. You may argue that PCs, with XMOS chips over USB or PCIe or whatever, can do the same thing cheaper, but perhaps in a lot of instances money isn't the issue. If XMOS gets behind it as their preferred solution for a particular embedded problem, then hopefully there'll be a ready made niche. We probably won't see those sales as X1000 sales, but at least it could be something that will lower costs in the long run.

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Zylesea 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 9:41:34
#179 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2223
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@BigBentheAussie

Sur, money is not the only issue, but also convenience and versatility:
Where are the standard development tools on OS4 (Eclipse? Matlab?)?
How to move your XMOS application from a random computer to another random computer?
How to use it on a laptop?
And so on. These usb kits are cheaper and offer more versatility and convenience. And in those cases you need a better connection to the host than usb, pci will do and still preserve most of the advantages. I need a lot of imagination to see the integration to the mobo as a substancial or outstanding advantage.

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vidarh 
Re: XMOS - what is it all about
Posted on 14-Jan-2010 10:08:53
#180 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@Zylesea

Quote:
I need a lot of imagination to see the integration to the mobo as a substancial or outstanding advantage.


The main advantage is *not* technical - you're right, it could most likely just be put on PCI or we could use the USB dev kits, unless A-Eon are integrating it far more tightly than we so far have any reason to believe.

The main advantage is to ensure *every X1000 has one*, which creates at least the possibility of a community growing up around using them on the X1000, or people coming up with cool apps that depend on them. Maybe it won't happen and it'll remain unused by 99% of X1000 users, or maybe it'll be a resounding success - we can't really know until it's out and a reasonable amount of people have had a chance to play with it.

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