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      /  Why can't AROS catch on?
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PosterThread
steril606 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 7:08:23
#21 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Oct-2008
Posts: 462
From: Munich/Bavaria/Germany

@ssolie:
You have a good point with AROS stop preaching to the choir, but your wording was slightly offensive. ;)


My point of view is, that every flavour of Amiga does something good for the whole of Amiga. Would it be better if we just had one? We would be more unified, but unfortunately it's not the reality we are speaking about that we live in, so we have to cope with what we have today.

So AOS for me is keeping the Amiga legacy, MOS is pushing the Amiga in unknown territories by trying out new stuff, and AROS can attract new users/coders to NG Amigadom. Just because I can give them the Icaros DVD, and tell them to install it, and check it out themselves. I can't do that at the moment with AOS, because they would need dedicated PPC hardware.

So, every OS in the Amiga family has its place, and often enough gives something to the others.




Last edited by steril606 on 12-Feb-2010 at 07:10 AM.
Last edited by steril606 on 12-Feb-2010 at 07:10 AM.
Last edited by steril606 on 12-Feb-2010 at 07:09 AM.

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gonegahgah 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 8:30:49
#22 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 148
From: Australia

@robo-ant

I have Haiku installed on my PC.
I can't really say how it compares to Amiga as I haven't used BeOS much.
Has a fair few preferences like Amiga does.
Seems to be fairly object oriented though I haven't programmed on it.

I also have: Amiga Forever 2009, AmiSYS, Icaros 1.1, C64 Forever, Intent 1.5, Fedora & Squeak, oh and Vista too.
Squeak is probably the most interesting one but not an OS for the masses.

Personally, none of them are what I want an OS to be.

Last edited by gonegahgah on 12-Feb-2010 at 08:32 AM.

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clusteruk 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 8:31:10
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1544
From: Marston Moretaine, England

What makes you think Aros is not catching on.

Aros is on a road that is not controlled by one company and only on one platform so there is no reason why it will not succeed over time, it is now very usable but has same problems as AOS and MOS, i.e. no memory protection, no SMP.

If the original Amiga ideas of an OS are still relevant which i believe they are then Aros is the only platform that can catch a large slice of the non Amiga and retro computer fans on other platforms.

Once the Wifi bounty is completed I believe that Aros will be the perfect Netbook/Laptop alternative to Win/Mac.


_________________
Amiga 1000, 3000D Toaster, Checkmate A1500 Plus
http://www.checkmate1500plus.com/

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itix 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 8:59:35
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@tonyw

Quote:

So now it has been decided to rewrite it again so that it runs on 50 MHz MC680x0 machines that haven't been made for more than fifteen years? Why not simply run the original? After all, it's had a lot more man-years put into it.


An advantage would be you dont have to pay license fees and you can add new features to the OS without resorting to patches.'

@solie

Quote:

Because AROS fans are still talking to the wrong people.


I think majority of AROS users are ex-Amiga users. Users who left MorphOS and OS4, and users who wanted an x86. AROS is an Amiga operating system for Amigans from Amigans.

Last edited by itix on 12-Feb-2010 at 09:07 AM.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 9:14:47
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3512
From: Unknown

Aros is a really interesting OS. I think that as soon as become more stable and get more features, aros will be my open platform of choice.

_________________
retired

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clusteruk 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 9:16:20
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1544
From: Marston Moretaine, England

@itix

Could not have said it better myself, thanks.

And ex Amigans who are coming back will choose Aros most of the time because they can try it on the hardware they probably own. Remember with the Anniversary coming there will be a swell of interest.

AOS4 users should get behind Aros because it will bring ex and new Amigans into the fold again and swell the numbers. Some of them will become hooked again and spend money buying the official OS version as well.

_________________
Amiga 1000, 3000D Toaster, Checkmate A1500 Plus
http://www.checkmate1500plus.com/

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Anonymous 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 9:59:35
# ]

0
0

@al4

* AROS doesn't have the modern features, stability and maturity of Linux.
* Linux has the backing of companies like IBM, Novell and Suse.
* Those big companies offer support services that businesses need.
* Most of the code going into Linux is by paid programmers not hobbyists.
* Linux has modern toolkits like GTK+, QT, Mono and Java and a huge amount of software.
* Linux has supported commercial software and proprietary sofware in all sorts of fields.
* AROS doesn't have enterprise software features and can't be easily integrated into a network.
* AROS is buggy and unstable compared with Linux. It doesn't have enough developers to fix bugs quickly or even bug tracking mechanisms open to the public.
* Linux is everywhere, on all sorts of devices made by companies you've never heard of, as well as famous names like Nokia.

AROS, like AmigaOS, will always by a system for hobbyists. If this was 10 years ago, we might have had a chance. Oh well.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 12-Feb-2010 at 10:00 AM.

 
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phoenixkonsole 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 10:03:43
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1770
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:
I would love to see clear and concise video demonstrations and tutorials covering:
1. Installation.
2. Amiga Basics.
3. Customisation demos.
4. Setting up internet access and surfing the web, FTP, IRC and Mail.
5. Running classic apps and games.
6. Demos of native bundled Applications and games (e.g. Wordprocessing, spreadsheets, Doom ports).
7. Developing cross-platform applications within AROS (IDE?).
8. How to help develop AROS further.
9. Porting guides.
10. Commercial software available.


i'm working on this - they will be made available online(youtube/vimeo) and physical on the A-live X discs (in a near update)

@Manu
i think 2 years instead of 10 : )
You now i'm trying to get development boosted (every month from now on). If i have sold a specific amount of AresOne i will hire one or to offshore coders to work on development tools and libaries. Lets say port everything from Aminet(A-Z) to AROS : )
Also i'm thinking as a user - i know what i use my mac for and everything i need will soon work on AROS too. At least then one people can use AROS as main-soulution.
Printing is coming - terminilis could print a PDF created with Cinnamon Writer via a Post-script printer. Mr. Desler will try to include a function to print directly via Post-script. Terminilis will do a spooler and hopes to bring Gutenprint/cups too AROS.
By the way Cinnamon Writer will be released soon to the public. But only the second newest version available for AROS.
A Media Center solution is on its way too....
Stephen Jones (Imica) found someone who brings Catweasel-support.
............

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

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Anonymous 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 10:13:30
# ]

0
0

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote:
Aros is a really interesting OS. I think that as soon as become more stable and get more features, aros will be my open platform of choice.



I agree entirely.

My last post was a bit negative, but I'd prefer to be realistic. People expect too much of AROS and I keep hearing that it's a "failure". What? By who's standards?

The goal of AROS was never to take over the world, but to build something that Amigans could use. They're doing that.

Chris

EDIT: made my post less long & boring!

Last edited by clebin on 12-Feb-2010 at 10:17 AM.

 
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IKE 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 10:18:07
#30 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2005
Posts: 48
From: Southern CA

Quote:
by Channel_Z

@IKE

You seem to have missed that there is a distribution of AROS. http://www.icarosdesktop.org/ It is not hard to install, especially not the VM based variants.


@Channel_Z

Thanks or the information, however I already have a "VM" for OS 3.x...it's called WinUAE.

IKE

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Hisoka999 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 10:19:39
#31 ]
Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2009
Posts: 82
From: Germany

Everytime I look at aros I see an operating system which is not designed for the standard end user or everyone else except os-development and amiga fans. You can't even change the resolution without modifying the grub config.

Someone started to compare AROS and Haiku. There are million years between both systems. Haiku has all the stuff that AROS does not have. I don't see any advantage of AROS compared to Haiku. Haiku is fast, designed to use threads a lot(can use multiple processors), is posix compatible, has memory protection and a lot other stuff AROS is missing(WLAN-Stack, Cross Plattform Toolkits, usable applications and more). Another part is that Haiku is very small compared to IcAROS.


So why should it be an alternative for someone except the people i mentioned?



Edit: But I don't want to say that it is bad or a failure. It is a nice hobby project and a nice toy for me.

Last edited by Hisoka999 on 12-Feb-2010 at 10:23 AM.

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whose 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 10:23:28
#32 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 893
From: Germany

@clusteruk

Quote:
And ex Amigans who are coming back will choose Aros most of the time because they can try it on the hardware they probably own. Remember with the Anniversary coming there will be a swell of interest.


Im sorry, but thats "boulevard reporting"... first of all, there are no official numbers showing that ex Amigans choose AROS "most of the time". So we must see all "arguments" of this kind like what they simply are: wild guess.

This is true for all other incarnations (Classic 68k, OS4, MOS), too!

Quote:
AOS4 users should get behind Aros because it will bring ex and new Amigans into the fold again and swell the numbers.


Well, and this is plain propaganda.

Why should OS4 users get behind AROS, if you and other AROS promoters are asking, why AROS still can´t catch on? Did you ever ask, why it really cant catch on?

You are playing "argument shuffle" here and I will explain now, why.

It was not so long ago, that AROS promoters argued, that we badly need X86 AOS, as, with plenty of cheap and powerful hardware available, thousands, if not millions, of people will return to the AmigaOS and the development train will definetly gain a speed burst.

Well, your argument yet failed, and you were told so, all the time.

AROS exists for more than 10 years now and it still didnt really catch up to other incarnations of AOS, although it made some interesting progress in the last two years.

So, with this in mind, hardware wasnt the real problem all the time, you see?

One of the problems AROS has is, that it still lacks to be really useful, as e.g. legacy software cant be used without playing stunts with "external" emulators. I think this may be solved in the near future. At this point AROS may catch up to other incarnations, but I still doubt it.

I can tell you my doubts regarding this by PM or in another thread, I dont think that AOS software philosophy will really add to the topic of this thread...

IMHO, AROS had a very different problem all the time (different to most arguments used here), and this problem was (and still is) lack of a real strategy. From my POV, the AROS development still looks like a headless search for a niche that no other AOS incarnation has occupied already. Sometimes AROS people try to catch up with actual hardware development on the x86 platform, another time they try to get Classic Amigans into their boat, another time they think its best to port as many more-or-less useful Linux/Unix applications and utilities to the AROS platform and so on. They jump from one construction site to another, totally ignoring that constructing a "building" wont work, if you try to construct it without a well-defined and senseful plan in the background and if you build every single floor at a different place.

This POV is IMHO valid for the other incarnations, too. Only difference is, that the other incarnations at least provide a plan (but I wouldnt call those plans well-defined yet).

Another point I would like to add: Although sometimes its told otherwise, "lack" of developers couldnt be the problem here, too. If AROS really would have a lack of active developers, its just another contra argument to the "AOS needs x86" hysteria, nothing else.

There is no "theft of developers" by the other incarnations (this argument was told by Bernd Roesch for years now and it wont become truth by just repeating it over and over). If the lack of developers (well, I doubt this, too!) exists, its a sign that AROS simply isnt able to attract them yet, even though it runs on dirty cheap hardware.

Take this as a constructive criticism, not as an offend to your favourite toy... I just wanted to show you, where the real problem may come from. Just take my thoughts and discuss them. Maybe you will find some points that are helpful for developing the AROS platform in a constructive manner, so that it is able to catch up with the other incarntions of AOS.

I wont give you more "tips" or help on this topic, as I am a OS4/Classic user and supporter. Its your (the AROS people) job to find the right way, not mine

Regards

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cHaOs667 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 10:51:48
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2004
Posts: 706
From: Bad Homburg v.d.H., Germany

@Al4

it's easy: Linux has thousands of "core" developers and hundreds of supporting companys (big ones like IBM, Novell and others).

_________________
Ei gude wie!
I love my AMIGA Collection...
2x A500 (1x 1MB) OS1.3
1x A600 (40MB HDD) OS2.05 (broken joyport)
1x A1200 (68030/50, 32 MB Fast RAM) OS3.1
1x A4000D 040/40 (48 MB Fast), OS3.9, Fastlane Z3, CV64, Deneb, Indi AGA
1x CD³²
1x µAOn

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Anonymous 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 11:02:49
# ]

0
0

@whose

Lots of interesting points there. Yes, the lack of project management has hurt AROS over the years and it'll carry on if individual developers take AROS in a certain direction without general community approval.

However, the bounty system does provide some sort of consensus. WinUAE integration was highly valued, so attracted lots of money and so attracted a developer. That's sometimes better than hoping a proprietary company is going to do what you want it do.

I think it's unfair to call Cluster UK's argument 'propaganda'. There's a lot of enthusiasm and "call to arms" about the AmigaOS on this site, and this is no different. I think that comes down to some people feeling deep-down that AmigaOS has more right to be here, and treating it differently.

This thing about 'catching on'. Well AROS *is* catching on! There's more users and developers. The system has improved out of all recognition. There's more activity on AROS-Exec than ever before and more interest here. A big change is that more people here respect AROS now. Winning respect has been hard for AROS.

Why do we still expect our OS to take over the world?
Why do we set these impossible targets and then call something a failure?
Why can't we set realistic goals and then celebrate our little successes?

Chris

 
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pavlor 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 11:09:32
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@clebin

Quote:
WinUAE integration was highly valued, so attracted lots of money and so attracted a developer.


It is not so long time when AROS developers argued that 680x0 compatibility is not worth the effort (or even not needed). Another example of not so good project management. Hopefully it will be better in not much distant future.

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Manu 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 11:36:38
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just hope people could open their eyes before they pick on AROS. In 10 years you say...this and that. Okey, fair but I don't see OS4 and MOS taking off either and even if there's been progress for them in 10 years too it's been painfully slow.

In my opinion none of the Amiga likes (OS4,MOS,AROS) aren't taking off anywhere. Just accept the fact that they are hobbyists computer systems.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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vidarh 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 11:48:30
#37 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@Al4

As an ex-Amiga user (who is "back" though without any dedicated hardware for now) and long time (since '94) Linux user, with Linux as my main desktop for most of the time from '95 (a two year "break" where I used OS X on the desktop for work reasons), here's my thought:

Few windows users are looking at alternative OSs. Of those that do, most look at OS X first, Linux second and everything else not so much.

AROS would have to compete with OS X and Linux for attention to be a viable alternative. Currently it doesn't get close to that for a few reasons:

* No memory protection. This is a biggie. It's fixable for new software reasonably easily, and the rest could be sandboxed quite well, but it's still a big task to solve it right.
* Snappy UI is not a big deal - people are used to Windows and Windows can be very unresponsive. While Linux on *some hardware* with *some setups* can be worse than Windows in terms of GUI responsiveness, in practice most people who pick Linux over OS X as an alternative to Windows are more inclined to put up with less polished interfaces, both in terms of using the terminal more and in terms of using bleeding edge GUI stuff and accepting driver issues etc.
* The Amiga shell sucks for anyone with experience with a Unix like OS. Trying it again after having used Linux was like pulling teeth. There are good sides (i.e. assigns etc.), but getting used to things like not having a single filesystem root, but issues like requesters popping up all over the place (tab completion...) can be seriously hard to get used to again. Having a Unix compatible shell available is good, but at least in the *default* AROS install this is still badly broken because of interactions with the console handler (Icaros works far better). Things like the Amiga ReadArgs style options are also hard to get used to once you've used Linux - it feels like using Windows, and that's not a compliment (though I love the overall idea of a standard mechanism for parsing options - it just needs an update).
* Multi-user. A must for anything but laptops, and important even then. I dont' want my wife to get my settings if she happens to use my machine, or for me to suddenly be logged in to her account on some website if I use hers... *Protection* against other users is less important - barring encrypted files anyone with physical access that is remotely technically minded can overcome such protections anyway. But being able to log in users to multiple accounts with separate ENV:/ENVARC: assigns and a few other things would be an absolute minimum. (I realize this *is* doable).
* To win over Linux users you'd need *proper* multi-user support including filesystem permissions and an easy way of using the system via remote login (the main issue here is that AmigaOS has a nasty habit of popping up requesters for various actions, and this will break totally for remote users - it's "easy" to fix: any OS level functionality that pops up requesters needs to have a way of telling if something was started from a remote connection, and fall back on text based command line interaction in that case)

Effectively to have a chance of competing for alternative OS users, the user experience needs to either be as smooth as OS X for casual/non-technical users, or the technical foundations need to be as powerful and easy to use as Linux.

Now, I'm interested in Amiga again partly because of X1000, but also because there are lots of parts of AmigaOS that I loved and still like now that I've experimented with it again, but it also needs some serious updates to be a viable contender for anyone but ex-Amigans that are willing to put up with a lot of quirks because we know about them and are used to it..

OS4 seems to be heading there, and Icaros shows that AROS can be quite nice too, but there's much more work to be done for both if either is going to have a chance at expanding their appeal much. And this is *before* considering the lack of software.

_________________
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pavlor 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 11:48:56
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Manu

Quote:
Okey, fair but I don't see OS4 and MOS taking off either and even if there's been progress for them in 10 years too it's been painfully slow.


Memory protection? Virtual memory? 64 bit DOS? Native filesystems supporting files bigger than 4 GB?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 11:56:50
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Al4

OS Wars: many operating systems tried to compete whit Microsoft windows but in the end the they all suffer the same problems.

* Lack of support for Microsoft file formats
* Lack of support from adobe and other well known software companies
* Lack of support from game developers
* Many people are to scared to format there PC and install different OS.
* Driver support from hardware producers.
* Many people are used to windows and how it behaves, they are just as loyal as Amiga users.

_________________
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Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

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Zardoz 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 12-Feb-2010 12:09:56
#40 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

All desktop operating systems compete with Windows, no matter the platform.

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