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paolone 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 20-Feb-2010 23:03:43
#221 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
68k compatibility is good if you want to gain old AmigaOS users for your OS (as MOS and OS4 did).


Pavlor, I can understand your point of view. I've also done my best with AmiBridge to bring some sort of support to old 68K software to Icaros, but this anachronistic love for old apps is something you won't find anywhere else in the IT world.

You won't find any Mac user complaining because he/she can't use that old program for Mac Plus on his/her brand new iMac, nor you'll find anyone on the Windows world still using software for Windows 3.1 on Vista or 7. Sure, if you look very well you'll maybe find a few people still using their DOS apps because they haven't ever considered moving to another platform or evolve their data bases, but they are the exception, not the rule. And they generally are professionals or factories, who don't want to pay for conversions. They are not average users, and AmigaOS' natural target *was* the 'average', domestic user.

People today use Garage Band, OpenOffice, Photoshop, InDesign... we should look further, aiming to leverage somehow these standards... not try to stick with old applications! You also confirmed that you're using PPaint just to make conversions of images targeted to low-end 486 platforms... but how many people are doing this other than you? I still have some specific tasks where my Commodore 128 and some lines of Basic 7.0 are a good solution... but I am sure if I look for them... I'd find a program for any platform that does them as well.

I can understand someone keeping XP on his/her machine to keep compatibility with that 5-years old application he/she paid for long ago, but... please... 68K applications have been written many, too much many years before. And software gets old in no time.

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clusteruk 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 20-Feb-2010 23:50:01
#222 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1544
From: Marston Moretaine, England

@paolone

Guess we may just have to disagree with this one, when we have software on Aros that is better than my 68k software I will buy it. 68k Perfect Paint and Lightwave running on my Aros machine is a great combination for 24 bit animation editing.

In the meantime...

I will try and encourage porting of Blender and other apps to Aros.

Last edited by clusteruk on 20-Feb-2010 at 11:51 PM.

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http://www.checkmate1500plus.com/

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itix 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 20-Feb-2010 23:51:57
#223 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@paolone

Quote:

You won't find any Mac user complaining because he/she can't use that old program for Mac Plus on his/her brand new iMac, nor you'll find anyone on the Windows world still using software for Windows 3.1 on Vista or 7.


Large number of Windows software still supports ancient Windows 95.

But anyway reason why Amigans love ancient 68k software is that they have been using those for years and there isnt new replacement for these. For example for many years AROS was without good browser until OWB was ported rather recently. Other operating systems had IBrowse which lacked CSS but 2.x versions were rock stable and had excellent GUI.

Similarly there never was and never will be AWeb port for AROS because there isnt ClassAct for AROS (and again, never will be, ClassAct is dead). MorphOS never had ClassAct port either but you could download old 68k archive from Aminet and use PPC native AWeb with it. AWeb isnt very good browser but another example where seamless integration of 68k code and (ppc) native code has benefits.

Certainly most 68k software is outdated and old. But it makes migrating easier when you can still use your existing software library until new software gets written. And when we are talking about Amiga new software does not get really written...

However I dont mean that AROS is bad by any means. It is an amiga os with different view and deserves its place just like any other amiga os.

Quote:

People today use Garage Band, OpenOffice, Photoshop, InDesign... we should look further, aiming to leverage somehow these standards... not try to stick with old applications!


Any release dates for Garage Band yet?

But actually the truth is that there never will be new software written for OS3, OS4, MorphOS nor AROS. If or when they have matured enough there will be more ports. We are not living in the world where new major software gets written by individuals anymore.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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ncafferkey 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 20-Feb-2010 23:57:43
#224 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 7-Jul-2003
Posts: 274
From: Unknown

@phase5fan

Quote:

phase5fan wrote:

A situation where I need one set of sources for Amiga Os 3, Amiga Os 4, MorphOS and the second set of sources for AROS is not acceptable.


There's no reason why AROS would need a second set of sources. I've written drivers that compile on all four OSs, and while lots of platform-specific code had to be added for the OS4 versions, the AROS versions needed hardly any changes from OS3. If anything, you'd need one set of sources for OS3/MorphOS/AROS and another for OS4.

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Hammer 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 8:05:15
#225 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@phase5fan

Quote:

Most developers and users use gcc on x86.
Additional Power6 platform capabilities are not used by gcc.
Therefore, Power6 reaches such poor results.

GCC-X86 is not on par with Intel Complier 10 or MS Visual C++ 8.1 or Portland C++.
Power6's is priced outside of SOHO's price range i.e. Power6 is a pointless discussion for most SOHO budgets.

Secondly, IBM Power6 doesn't have creditable GPU partner and stack i.e. going to lose against AMD's combo (CPU and GpGPU).

As for server the market,
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20100215231002_AMD_s_Twelve_Core_Microprocessors_Available_for_Sale.html

AMD Opteron 6174 "12" cores is already in the channel. AMD Opteron 6000-series's AMD G34 (1944-pin) socket has 85W, 115W or 140W TDP. At this level, I rather have native virtualisation for multiple OS (e.g. Lintel, Wintel, AROS, BeOS, QNX ‘etc’).

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Feb-2010 at 08:14 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Feb-2010 at 08:10 AM.

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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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cha05e90 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 9:40:55
#226 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@Caveman

Quote:
In fact,it's already done...

No, it isn't.

Have you ever used 68k AmigaOS software in a MorphOS2.x or AmigaOS4.x context? Sorry, but please don't sell me that half geared UAE crap as "integrated 68k emulation for legacy software"!

As long as there's no transparent, JIT accelerated *integrated* emulation layer in AROS (like Trance or Petunia) I see no real use of it. And - pleeeease - don't come with arguments like "who needs old software blabla" - as long as there's no "Photoshop for AROS" or "OpenOffice, AROS edition" or "ADOBE proudly presents Flash for AROS" you have even more problems than MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x - no new AND no old software. But, hey, it runs on real fast x86 machines.

(2 cent, anyone? )

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cha05e90 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 9:42:14
#227 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@itix

+1

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Manu 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 10:13:36
#228 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

I must say I'm completely behind Paolones reasoning here. The types of applications I used on my Amiga back in the day was Wordworth, Page Stream, Dpaint and Imagine and trackers a little. Maybe I'm geting old but I would never go back at least not to Imagine.

When I want to get into 3D animation again I will without a blink of the eye go for Blender. At least if I'd want to evolve as an animator and not re-live old times. I've seen amazing stuff being done with Blender. It doesn't cost a lot to get started but you pay for learning material, a good idea if you ask me.

For Gimp I must say it's not that bad when you start to use it, but IMHO the user interface is a little sucky, and I hate floating tools windows. But there so much more you can get out of modern software, in this case Gimp than with our old timer Deluxe Paint. You just need to study them a bit and get used to them. The internet is also full of good tutorials.

If I'd want to get serious about 2D animation I'd go ToonBoom Studio, and lighter versions of it aren't that expensive. Huge lerning curve there as well I guess but you can't compare the results you'd get out it with a DPaint animation.

I support people developing for all amiga alternatives incluiding Aros, and I know they do their best and they do good software. But usaually the softwares are one man free time projects and you have to be realistic about what to expect them to deliver. My hat off to them though for not giving in,

Legacy on AROS for me has up to now been Games and Demos. I looked at the old apps, I could start to use WordWorth, Dpaint, PageStream, Imagine again today but I don't do it. Do you know why? It just feels "Been there done that" If I need work done I want to use tools that are up to date. And I have a kick ass Quad Core PC that I can choose to boot into Aros when I feel like and Windows if I need some up-to-date apps.

Many of you try to point out that AROS problem not catching on is because it's not binary compatible with Amiga, that's bull to me. AROS runs (via emulation) everything  it needs to. Then add to it that you can port applications from the other alternatives fairly easily. We already can use YAM, SimpleMail, MuiBase, Scout, DOpus, FryingPan, GrafX2, Milkey-,Pro-, Hively-Trackers, Lookhere, Cinnamon Writer, WookieChat, SabreMSN.

So saying AROS is not compatible is just FUD.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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Manu 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 10:28:26
#229 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@cha05e90

Quote:

Have you ever used 68k AmigaOS software in a MorphOS2.x or AmigaOS4.x context? Sorry, but please don't sell me that half geared UAE crap as "integrated 68k emulation for legacy software"!


First of all, how about showing some respect calling O1i's hard work crap is just more of the FUD in this thread. Everybody doesn't follow your opinon. I think UAE is enough for legacy. Do you really think I would go out and buy any of the other two (MOS, OS4) just to run legacy software.
Quote:

As long as there's no transparent, JIT accelerated *integrated* emulation layer in AROS (like Trance or Petunia) I see no real use of it.


Pity for you. I'm glad you have alternatives.

Quote:

And - pleeeease - don't come with arguments like "who needs old software blabla" - as long as there's no "Photoshop for AROS" or "OpenOffice, AROS edition" or "ADOBE proudly presents Flash for AROS"


Yes I dont NEED old software. That's why I use Windows, do you really think I would be missing out on good apps only because I want to be stubborn and work with 15 year old software when there's new software around. How about looking at reality once now and then.

Quote:

you have even more problems than MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x - no new AND no old software. But, hey, it runs on real fast x86 machines.


Problems can be solved over time. You have the exact same problems that AROS have you are only further on the time scale. You seem to have problems with AROS. I have no problem with the alternatives.

Last edited by Manu on 21-Feb-2010 at 10:30 AM.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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Caveman 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 11:10:47
#230 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Feb-2005
Posts: 655
From: Norway

@cha05e90

I was pointing out that emulation is already done,and i was not thinking ArOS,but Windows,or AmigaOS. If people desperately want to run old apps,there are two solution,either you have a classic amiga,or you emulate it on a new amiga,or windows,or whatever. Read what phase5fan was saying,and you will better understand what i was responding to.

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Caveman 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 11:14:42
#231 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Feb-2005
Posts: 655
From: Norway

@cha05e90

And NO,i don't NEED old software!! If i want to play an old game,i E M U L A T E it!!

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Hisoka999 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 11:43:11
#232 ]
Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2009
Posts: 82
From: Germany

@thread

I played with aros a bit again. And I don't think the big apps are a main problem. AROS is lacking everywhere. Crashes, a horrible wanderer and a lot basic stuff is not there(a good editor, the standard one is on the level of the windows editor).

But I don't think that relying on old 68k software is a good way. You have an emulator and a more or less compatible api. What do you want more? A JIT is a waste of time here, the most software does not need that power and if a software need it, someone should think about a rewrite,port to get a native version. Then the software would gain the needed power.


Another thing, is it somehow possible to boot aros from an usb stick? It would be easier to test then wasting a dvd(you never know if its working or not)


My big question for the aros future is: How do you get developers interested in developing for AROS?
If you can solve that problem you can easily solve the others too.

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davidf215 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 11:50:14
#233 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2010
Posts: 95
From: Texas

@phase5fan

Quote:

Without m68k and ppc platforms, AROS will never be properly tested.
And it will never be compatible.

m68k or ppc isn't need to test compatibility. Recompiling 3.x code on AROS-x86 is all that is needed to test [API] compatibility. If it is binary compatibility that is desired, then that could be done via emulation.

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salass00 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 11:54:41
#234 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 2707
From: Finland

@Hisoka999

Quote:

Another thing, is it somehow possible to boot aros from an usb stick? It would be easier to test then wasting a dvd(you never know if its working or not)


Why not use a DVD-RW?

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Hisoka999 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 11:57:34
#235 ]
Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2009
Posts: 82
From: Germany

@salass00

need to buy one(and thats not very easy on sunday), but why use a dvd if you have a stick? That would be good for netbook, since most of them does not have a dvd drive.

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phase5fan 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 12:28:04
#236 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2009
Posts: 73
From: Unknown

@Caveman

And who cares?

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phase5fan 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 12:32:23
#237 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2009
Posts: 73
From: Unknown

@paolone

Quote:
then you posted a Nbench test just to demonstrate... nothing,


Nbench tests have shown that ATOM 1.6 GHz processor is slower than G4 1.33 GHz processor.

For the rest of your ravings, I will not comment on.

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cha05e90 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 13:04:50
#238 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@Manu

Quote:
First of all, how about showing some respect calling O1i's hard work crap is just more of the FUD in this thread.

Hm - my intention was of course not to disrespect anybodies hard work (but feel free to interpret it your way) but I DO disrespect people who want to sell me or others something as a solution that it isn't.

Without going to deep into thread digging - you find always people (and it is NOT the hard working UAE-AROS/Janus maintainer - he knows better!) that try to convince people of AROS by telling them 68k legacy support is no problem, because blablabla...

This does NOT mean that it can't be done - when someone's able to run a decent 68k MUI application that uses transparently the local x86 Zune libs - then it's done. But until...

Quote:
Yes I dont NEED old software. That's why I use Windows, do you really think I would be missing out on good apps only because I want to be stubborn and work with 15 year old software when there's new software around. How about looking at reality once now and then.

Ok, point taken. You use Windows. But for what do you need AROS then - an AmigaOS3.x API compatible operating system???? With hundreds of man hours for re-engineering AmigaOS parts, MUI and so on... Sorry, I can not follow you here...

Quote:
You seem to have problems with AROS.

No, I don't have problems with AROS. But indeed I have concernings about some people.

Last edited by cha05e90 on 21-Feb-2010 at 01:15 PM.
Last edited by cha05e90 on 21-Feb-2010 at 01:11 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 13:16:06
#239 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@phase5fan

Quote:
Nbench tests have shown that ATOM 1.6 GHz processor is slower than G4 1.33 GHz processor.


And that G4 is faster than Power6...

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phase5fan 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 13:16:20
#240 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2009
Posts: 73
From: Unknown

@paolone

Quote:
OMG, are we goin' to listen to this pathetic rant for long time, more?


How long does it amuses us, why not?

Quote:
Can you please tell everyone here what should AROS be compatible TO, exactly? To old 68k software which is no more useful to do almost ANYTHING in the modern world? Should AROS be blamed because in 2010 it can't run natively that old PageStream or Wordsworth or Deluxe Paint application?


Yes, of course.
Without testing the m68k software AROS will never be compatible.

Quote:
Or are they using InDesign, Word/OpenOffice Write and Photoshop/Gimp instead?


OpenOffice, GIMP can be used on MS Windows,Linux, AROS is not need to this .

Quote:
I simply can't understand why people should, today, want an AmigaOS clone running on top of modern hardware architectures... to stick with 20 years old applications!


Because without testing the m68k software AROS will never be compatible.

Quote:
I believe, instead, that they would prefer an AmigaOS clone which allows keeping exactly the same habits of before, but running on much much much more faster and reliable hardware, ready to run NEW applications, being them ports from somewhere else or written from scratch.


Unfortunately, this hardware is not much much much more faster.

And what is worse for you, applications that need the performance,
Games and Multimedia,
usually use API which is common for MS Windows, Linux, Amiga OS (for ex. OpenGL ).
Writing such applications for AROS does not make any sense.

Quote:
I personally prefer an AROS able to run Cinnamon Writer, than one running 68k version of Wordsworth.


Cinnamon Writer is an application written in SDL.
Creating just such an application under AROS on x86 does not make sense if you are using the API also available on MS Windows and Linux.
On whose systems can do the same thing at 10 times less time, effort and work.

Quote:
A system which should be on par with other mainstream platforms, or at least that tries to be.


AROS is at the level of MS Windows 1993.
And you will never have enough money to reduce this distance.

Quote:
And, just to stop your whining refrain about lack of software on AROS,


No problem.
As soon as the GUI and graphics will work on AROS as on Amiga OS 3, Amiga OS 4, MorphOS.

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