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phase5fan 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:07:28
#261 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2009
Posts: 73
From: Unknown

@paolone

Quote:
Once you recompile an AmigaOS 3.x application source into an AROS executable binary file, and the operation succeeds, that's exactly the compatibility level AROS is aiming to.


That's how it should work.
But it does not work, because the functions in AROS are not tested as they should be.

Quote:
i PREFER straight emulation of the whole AmigaOS ambient, since it's the only one which assures the best compatibility so far.


Without m68k software, AROS will never be properly tested.

Quote:
Sorry for you: there's absolutely no glory and no comparison possible when talking about performance/price ratio and availability.


If I want to use on the x86 stable,fast system which is incompatible with the Amiga Os I will choose MS Windows.

Quote:
Your pathetic Nbench result just says a G4 is faster than an Atom in the specific operations Nbench executable does


The only argument you have is your ridiculous belief that x86 is faster.
And nothing else.

Quote:
Unluckily for you, Nbench also states that a G4 is faster than a Power6, as someone else pointed out, which should at least bring to attention of a clever guy that there's something wrong in Nbench,


Unfortunately for you, you know nothing about differences in the performance of code compiled for the RISC by gcc and the manufacturer compiler.

Nbench source code is widely available, find the error and show it to us.

Quote:
GPUs are quite important right now, and using OpenGL on AROS applications MAKES SENSE, simply because right now AROS it's the only AmigaOS clone having full MESA (OpenGL) implementation, even hardware accelerated on GeForce 5000, 6000 and 7000 cards.


OpenGL applications I prefer to write under MS Windows.
Where I have the best ever done IDE - Visual Studio.

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phase5fan 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:08:25
#262 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2009
Posts: 73
From: Unknown

@HenryCase

Great idea.

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Caveman 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:09:31
#263 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Feb-2005
Posts: 655
From: Norway

I think it's good that we have those AOS flavours. This raises the chances that one of them will survive. Why bet everything you got,on the same deck of cards?

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phase5fan 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:14:10
#264 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2009
Posts: 73
From: Unknown

@Manu

Quote:
AROS is an Amiga like OS wether you like it or not.


AROS may be Amiga like OS .
If it will be compatible.
For now it is not.

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cha05e90 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:18:25
#265 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@Manu

Quote:
if somebody would tell you that the programs you make are crap would you take that as a compliment ?

Of course I would - lucky me, I didn't say such a thing (but you are still free to interpret it that way ). I still don't like the whole idea of having a fully fledged second OS installation (OS3.x mostly) in parallel with parallel running system context only to fire up for example PPaint7. And the fact that the legacy software can't benfit in a tansparent way from native x86 libraries or system resources - even Amithlon were some steps in front here. And there ARE people around here or Amiga.org who will tell (or told) you this is "system integration". For this purpose it is still crappy. My 2 cent. I would say the same about this on MorphOS or AmigaOS.
Of course DPaint runs in your decent AROS UAE port - I'm sure it even runs faster than on any AmigaOS or MorphOS machine - but that's still NOT the point.
Quote:
pread FUD about how bad AROS

Can't see where I should have said something like this about AROS in general - it is more or less an (in my opinion) technical or philosophical point AND my complain about people who do the opposite: (Good)Talking AROS more potent than it is. To cite myself:
Quote:
This does NOT mean that it can't be done - when someone's able to run a decent 68k MUI application that uses transparently the local x86 Zune libs - then it's done.

Someone already remarked that there is work in progress here - and if this really works, then the OS3.x API compability will make sense (besides "new" software like Wookiechat/YAM/...).
To repeat again: You don't seem to be interested in "legacy" software (I assume YAM as legacy, it's historically from stone age - and I love it ), so why having an OS that in itself is a rebuild of legacy stuff (API, re-eng libs/resources, no memory protection etc.)? I still can't answer this question to myself.

_________________
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BigBentheAussie 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:29:50
#266 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@BigBentheAussie

Quote:
I would compare the best available *native* programs


There is no reason to make difference between 68k and native applications in AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS.

OS4:
word-processing: AbiWord
spreadsheets: Gnumeric, Turbocalc
presentations: PointRider, Hollywood
3d Rendering: Blender, (and others like Cinema 4D)
playing audio and video media formats: DvPlayer, Tunenet
paint/drawing: PPaint, TvPaint, (etc.)


Huh? I do not want to compare 68k and native within AOS4 and MorphOS. I am comparing 68k, AOS4, MorphOS and AROS applications separately. I hope you are not implying that there is no difference between 68k and native applications on those systems.
I include 68k in the list because it is a common fallback for all of the Amiga(and Alike) OSes, regardless of the elegance of its emulation. We can compare 68k emulation between systems in another thread. AROS doesn't have JIT 68k emulation. I get it.
Unfortunately, I am not sure I am knowledgeable enough to discern which of the applications you mention is pure 68k verses PPC native.

I know Abiword, Gnumeric, Blender are linux ports so they're native, and I guess Hollywood and DvPlayer would be OS4 native, but I am not sure about the other ones.... so perhaps this doesn't totally satisfy my request.

Thanks for the effort though.

I may put a list together tomorrow if no-one else pitches in. Then we can get to the bottom of app situation on all the Amiga&alike platforms and how they compare.
I guess I'll be visiting all the various OS depots, Amikit and Icaros sites.

Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 21-Feb-2010 at 06:38 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 21-Feb-2010 at 06:32 PM.

_________________
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Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

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Kronos 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:38:22
#267 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

BigBentheAussie wrote:
@pavlor

[quote]
pavlor wrote:
@BigBentheAussie

I know Abiword, Gnumeric, Blender are linux ports so they're native, and I guess Hollywood and DvPlayer would be OS4 native, but I am not sure about the other ones.... so perhaps this doesn't totally satisfy my request.

Thanks for the effort though.


You see, thats the difference I don't care wether something is 68k or PPC, aslong as it runs o.k. and has an Amiga/MUI-GUI.

Abiword, Gnumeric and whatelse only runs on an X11-server is just as much "native" SW for me as an old IE running under Shapeshifter/Basilisk.

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- blame Canada

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BigBentheAussie 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:40:49
#268 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Kronos

Are you making the case for AROS?

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

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pavlor 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:50:43
#269 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:
Huh? I do not want to compare 68k and native within AOS4 and MorphOS. I am comparing 68k, AOS4, MorphOS and AROS applications separately. I hope you are not implying that there is no difference between 68k and native applications on those systems.


I think it is not good to exclude OS3 applications from OS4. It would be nearly the same nonsense as exclude OS1 applications that runs on OS3... But it is your list, you make the rules.

For your information: OS4 apps can use OS3 libraries and OS3 apps (in OS4) can use OS4 libraries (eg. external decoding engiene for AmigaAMP, datatypes etc.).

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DiskDoctor 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:53:28
#270 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2009
Posts: 632
From: Rzeszow, Poland

@Kronos

Quote:

Abiword, Gnumeric and whatelse only runs on an X11-server is just as much "native" SW for me as an old IE running under Shapeshifter/Basilisk.


Just leave the damn Basilisk alone! And be happy it delivers xls file reader to MorphOS (and possibly more).

Someone stated here already, native, non-native, whatever as long as it works. Furthermore no dev efforts were put into enabling IcXL in MorphOS. Just a silly web research plus a couple of emails...

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Amiga 1200 + WARP 1260 + AmigaOS 3.2

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pavlor 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 18:58:23
#271 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@DiskDoctor

Quote:
Just leave the damn Basilisk alone! And be happy it delivers xls file reader to MorphOS (and possibly more).


I agree! Not ideal solution, but better than nothing.

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Manu 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 19:06:02
#272 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@cha05e90
Quote:
Of course I would - lucky me, I didn't say such a thing (but you are still free to interpret it that way

I still would not call anything crap if I could avoid it. Why the use of such a strong word as soon you see something you don't like. We are grown ups here aren't we ?

Quote:

I still don't like the whole idea of having a fully fledged second OS installation (OS3.x mostly) in parallel with parallel running system context only to fire up for example PPaint7.

To you maybe. But for me it doesn't matter. It's a good enough solution for me and if something else better replaces it, then all power to that person who accomplishes it.

Quote:

And the fact that the legacy software can't benfit in a tansparent way from native x86 libraries or system resources - even Amithlon were some steps in front here. And there ARE people around here or Amiga.org who will tell (or told) you this is "system integration". For this purpose it is still crappy. My 2 cent. I would say the same about this on MorphOS or AmigaOS.

You may dislike it, yet it's not crappy it does what it's meant to do.

Quote:

Of course DPaint runs in your decent AROS UAE port - I'm sure it even runs faster than on any AmigaOS or MorphOS machine - but that's still NOT the point.

The point for me is to be able somehow to run 68K apps if I need. If you wanted something else out of UAE integration then you missunderstood Ol1's work from the beginning.

Quote:
Quote:
pread FUD about how bad AROS

Can't see where I should have said something like this about AROS in general - it is more or less an (in my opinion) technical or philosophical point AND my complain about people who do the opposite: (Good)Talking AROS more potent than it is. To cite myself:

You surley wont see less of the good talking by back talking AROS. If you bet on your horse, why can't I bet on mine ? How can you know AROS is not good enough for me. How can you know there is no other like me that can feel the same. No one is good talking more than it is, everyone following the progress knows how much there is still to do. But here people enjoy spreading the FUD that AROS is so bad that you can'r even run 68K applications on it, when in fact you can. Then HOW it's done technically that's another question. And matters to some but not to all. Me being one example where it doesn't matter.

Quote:
This does NOT mean that it can't be done - when someone's able to run a decent 68k MUI application that uses transparently the local x86 Zune libs - then it's done.
And until that someone does it, we don't need to hold that against AROS either, AROS has other areas that needs attention. JUAE does it for me meanwhile. Again for me 68k apps aren't the reason for which I use AROS.

Quote:

Someone already remarked that there is work in progress here - and if this really works, then the OS3.x API compability will make sense (besides "new" software like Wookiechat/YAM/...).

Yeah, I hope he makes it it would kill off some of the whining

Quote:

To repeat again: You don't seem to be interested in "legacy" software (I assume YAM as legacy, it's historically from stone age - and I love it ), so why having an OS that in itself is a rebuild of legacy stuff (API, re-eng libs/resources, no memory protection etc.)? I still can't answer this question to myself.

To repeat again, AROS is a hobby to me. It's the Amiga I ever wanted, an Amiga like OS that runs on off the shelf hardware. An OS that gives me the Amiga feeling but builds bridges to the new world. I don't need the name, it's the feeling I'm after.
And why wouldn't I use AROS, it's very usable as it is today. I dual boot win7 and AROS, it's no hassle for me to follow and support AROS. I can be productive with new applications in Windows if I want and I can betatest AROS progress when needed.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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Manu 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 19:08:30
#273 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@phase5fan
Quote:

phase5fan wrote:
@Manu

Quote:
AROS is an Amiga like OS wether you like it or not.


AROS may be Amiga like OS .
If it will be compatible.
For now it is not.


That's your opinion. For me It's the only "Amiga" way.
PM me when MOS/OS4 runs on x86 and I'll have a look at your solution.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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cha05e90 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 19:48:45
#274 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@Kronos
There is a difference between "emulation" and "port". All software ported by Edgar runs natively on AmigaOS. But use their own - ported - window enviroment. Following your logic the old software called "ReproStudio" isn't native AmigaOS software, 'cos it used it's own screen and windowing enviroment.

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Kronos 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 20:28:27
#275 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@cha05e90

As I wrote it doesn't matter how it works, only how it's used. In this context running "native" apps under X11 is just the same as running them in an emulator or even over VNC on another computer.

Don't know "ReproStudio", but if it has it's own screen&window systems it's most likely crap.

@diskdoctor

Did I say anything against useing Basilisk ? If I really needed acces to "xls" (thats Excel isn't it) which I don't I would either try loading it with TurboCalc, or just use the proper tools on the proper OS ...

@BigBenAussie

No I'm not making the case for AROS, I'm just pointing out that dividing SW into "native" and "non-native" is a completly wrong approach.

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HenryCase 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 20:29:59
#276 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 728
From: Unknown

@vidarh

Quote:

vidarh wrote:
@HenryCase

Quote:
However, I think I get what the difference is now, so the main difference between a 68k JIT+emulator and a 68k emulator without JIT is the JIT will translate more than just one instruction at a time, with the translation of larger blocks leading to speed increases?


An emulator without a JIT doesn't translate *any* instructions. It emulates them directly.

Say, for example, the instruction is the equivalent of MOVE.L #0, D0. An emulator without a JIT will decode that instruction, and may call a bit of code that will move the value 0 to some memory location it uses as D0. It will never translate the instruction into anything but decode and figure out what to do every time.

A JIT, on the other hand, would at some point during runtime before getting to that instruction translate it into an instruction the CPU can run directly. So on x86 for example, MOVE.L #0, D0 might end up getting translated into "movl $0,%eax" (simplified - in reality a single source instruction will often need multiple target instructions for accurate emulation) once, and just get executed directly by the CPU every time execution reaches that location afterwards.

The speed increase come from doing far less work per instruction on average, though the JIT often does far more work the first time it sees a block of code.


vidarh, I know you know what you're talking about, I know of your Ruby compiler project so you clearly have experience in the field of program compilation, I hope you don't mind me asking a few questions to further my knowledge...

I understand that a 68k JIT like Cyclone for ARM will 'compile' a 68k instruction into an ARM instruction, but what I'm not getting here is how much of this is prefetched. If as you say a JIT will do far more work the first time it sees the original code, does the JIT avoid lag by 'buffering' a certain amount of native code before it is executed?

With the non-JIT approach, how does the CPU emulation work? Does it build some sort of state tracker?

Thanks in advance.

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ChrisH 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 21:02:01
#277 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@HenryCase Quote:
does the JIT avoid lag by 'buffering' a certain amount of native code before it is executed?

Yes. JIT would be *slower* than non-JIT, if it converted each instruction every time it needed to be executed. The only way JIT can be faster is because it converts the instruction once, and then re-uses it (from a buffer/cache). Of course, since it is doing that, it makes sense to join the converted instructions together, so that they can be executed directly (without management overhead). You then have to decide how much to convert in one go.

How you buffer/cache it depends on what CPU you emulate & how it is typically used. But if the CPU has an instruction cache (e.g. 68020 or above), then you should be able to cache the native code until the instruction cache would be flushed. But if the emulated CPU does not have an instruction cache, then it gets rather more complicated.

Quote:
With the non-JIT approach, how does the CPU emulation work? Does it build some sort of state tracker?

You would store the CPU's state in memory, and for each instruction you'd examine & modify the relevant state. Nothing magical there, just rather slow (due to many actual CPU instructions & memory accesses being required to emulate a single CPU instruction).

Last edited by ChrisH on 21-Feb-2010 at 09:39 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 21-Feb-2010 at 09:37 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 21-Feb-2010 at 09:05 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 21-Feb-2010 at 09:05 PM.

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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

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cha05e90 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 21:30:45
#278 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@Kronos

Quote:
As I wrote it doesn't matter how it works, only how it's used. In this context running "native" apps under X11 is just the same as running them in an emulator or even over VNC on another computer.


No, it isn't.

(Nice to see another discussion evolving... )

Quote:
Don't know "ReproStudio", but if it has it's own screen&window systems it's most likely crap.

Beware of calling concepts (or software or whatever you meant) crap, I had to learn here that this should'nt be done... (see above).

Last edited by cha05e90 on 21-Feb-2010 at 09:32 PM.

_________________
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paolone 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 21:54:39
#279 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
For your information: OS4 apps can use OS3 libraries and OS3 apps (in OS4) can use OS4 libraries (eg. external decoding engiene for AmigaAMP, datatypes etc.).


I don't even want to imagine the hidden costs of this wonderful magic, when pieces of PPC code have to deal with 68K code and vice-versa, but I don't have to imagine how far from stable it is: I still own an AmigaOS 4.1-powered SAM 440EP, after all. As I said, *I* *prefer* whole emulation rather than this kind of assimilation: AmigaOS 3.x apps run better on AmigaOS 3.x, and not in a half/half environment.

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paolone 
Re: Why can't AROS catch on?
Posted on 21-Feb-2010 22:04:50
#280 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@cha05e90

Quote:
Of course I would - lucky me, I didn't say such a thing (but you are still free to interpret it that way ). I still don't like the whole idea of having a fully fledged second OS installation (OS3.x mostly) in parallel with parallel running system context only to fire up for example PPaint7.


That's a question of points of view. When you have to deal with limited resources (memory and processing power) a solution like the ones of AOS4 and MOS is preferable: you can integrate whatever you need and emulate the underlying instructions set to allow execution with no memory waste and processor power overhead.

But when you have 2x-10x faster machines that can easily manage one or more virtual machines running in the background, that's not a big issue. After all, this has been the solution Apple pioneered in late 90s when it released MacOSX (with OS9.x running in the background for backward compatibility with older apps), and Microsoft recently re-proposed with Seven's "XP Mode" (a full featured Windows XP running in a VirtualPC session). When Oliver will be finished with Janus-UAE, I'll absolutely don't mind having a whole session of UAE running somewhere on my hardware: it can perfectly deal with this since processor power and system speeds are enough.

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