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persia
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 23-Feb-2010 20:05:26
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Super Member |
Joined: 14-Jul-2009 Posts: 1059
From: Unknown | | |
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| @ddni
I think you may have something. X1000 sales would be very small, by piggybacking on the back of XCore/XMOS programming device they can sell increase sales and possibly render an unprofitable situation profitable as well as get the final price lower.
Amiga Inc failed because they were thinking Amiga only, the boards they proposed had no other use and of course were too expensive to design and make. A-Eon understands this and has leveraged some interesting hardware to be used for other purposes to make the X1000 possible. |
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tomazkid
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 23-Feb-2010 20:18:23
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Team Member |
Joined: 31-Jul-2003 Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden | | |
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| @klx300r
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yes now OS4.x makes no use of it but I'm sure some one or company will come up with a clever use for it one day |
And gives us the "runs only on AGA/OCS/ECS/kickstart XX" situation again, wonder if that is a good strategy giving the "current financial trends", as a certain anonymous poster put it.
_________________ Site admins are people too..pooff! |
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billt
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 23-Feb-2010 20:27:04
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Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
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| I think the Xcore chip should be treated more as a path to various IO interfaces, and less of a processor or FPGA than could do software tasks, act as a coprocessor, implement (emulate) ECA/AGA or 68K etc.
Think more of IDE, SCSI, SATA, ethernet, audio, GPIO, geekport, parallel port, serial port, memory slot, LPC bus, PS2 keyboard/mouse, USB, etc.
For an FPGA, I like the idea of attaching a larger one to SAM440 via PCI, and implementing Altivec in the FPGA. I'm not sure the FPGA built into SAM is big enough to contain an Altivec core. I don't believe XCore would be suitable to this task at all. Altivec is not an IO thing, it's a processing software engine thing. I'm not sure if an FPGA would give a good result either, the instruction trap and PCI path back and forth might slow things down enough that a pure software emulation would be just as good. Not sure. If I ever have time I'd like to play with the idea though.
_________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
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ferrels
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 23-Feb-2010 20:52:52
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Cult Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2005 Posts: 922
From: Arizona | | |
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| I suspect it will be a sophisticated form of DRM much like EFI on Apple hardware. Prevents you from running OS4 on other hardware.
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QuikSanz
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 23-Feb-2010 21:16:20
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Super Member |
Joined: 28-Mar-2003 Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca. | | |
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| Hi all,
How about a telescope controller? Hook up a CCD camera to your telescope and run it into your X1000, watch and control everything. How about a floppy controller? Or, how about a backplane with connectors for a MiniMig to be switched into in to it. Kind of a KVM that hooks directly into the X1000.
Just a couple of ideas.
Chris
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Rob
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 23-Feb-2010 22:54:05
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Joined: 20-Mar-2003 Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales | | |
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| @ferrels
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I suspect it will be a sophisticated form of DRM much like EFI on Apple hardware. Prevents you from running OS4 on other hardware. |
OS4.x ships in versions specific for A1, Sam and Pegasos so the X1000 version will only run on other X1000 boards. If they wanted to lock it to an individual board they can tie it to the MAC address like MorphOS does. |
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 23-Feb-2010 23:18:53
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12795
From: Norway | | |
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ferrels
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 23-Feb-2010 23:57:57
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Cult Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2005 Posts: 922
From: Arizona | | |
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| @Rob
Gee. You're good at stating the obvious. I already own OS4 and MorphOS and run them both on my PegII. Too bad OS4 and MorphOS won't run on anything else modern. Oops, forgot about the MacMini, but it's outdated as well.
As for Hyperion wanting to lock OS4 down to specific hardware, it's already locked down to a just few boards. OS4 is intentionally locked down to those boards. It's the same business model that Apple uses which is to lock your users into specific hardware that can only be bought thru one channel. Under this model your computer is essentially is big hunk of hardware DRM. This nearly killed Apple in the 1990s. It will definitely not be a successful strategy for Hyperion. Interest in alternative operating systems and especially the Amiga have waned to the point where I can't imagine more than one hundred to two hundred X1000 Amigas being sold. That's not enough to support a viable market and I'm sure the X1000 hardware will be just as underpowered and overpriced as the SAM, this is 2010. Apple's business model works because they have a huge marketing division with a lot of money behind it. That's not the case with Hyperion or A-EON. Hyperion and A-EON will continue to narrow the user base until a viable base no longer exists. I parked my PegII and my copies of OS4.1 and MorphOS in the basement a long time ago and that's where they'll stay. I just can't justify the expense for underpowered hardware and operating systems that are so feature lacking compared to modern operating systems what I can buy elsewhere. So yes, I see the mysterious module on the X1000 as nothing more than DRM. Hell, the entire X1000 is essentially hardware DRM since you won't be able to run the latest AmigaOS on anything but it! Last edited by ferrels on 24-Feb-2010 at 12:56 AM. Last edited by ferrels on 24-Feb-2010 at 12:03 AM. Last edited by ferrels on 23-Feb-2010 at 11:58 PM.
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 0:15:42
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12795
From: Norway | | |
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| @ferrels
I don't think you get it, hyperion uses there time and money on developing spesefic versions of OS4 that supports X and Y drivers on Z CPU.
As for DRM used by Apple they used today too, even on x86, what almost killed Apple was the mac clone market in the late 1990's - 2000. and there Apples slow migration from 680x0 to PowerPC, and over priced hardware in the early 1990's. apples advantage over Amiga was that it head truecolors graphic chipset in 1993 while Amiga where sold whit 8bit AGA chipset (starting from 1992),if Apple did not do anything back then about graphics they might not exist to day, they where slow to adapt colors.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Feb-2010 at 12:20 AM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Feb-2010 at 12:19 AM. Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Feb-2010 at 12:16 AM.
_________________ http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/ Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS |
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ferrels
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 0:53:47
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Cult Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2005 Posts: 922
From: Arizona | | |
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| @NutsAboutAmiga
Yes, I do get it. And what drivers are you talking about? The Radeon 9250 drivers that were developed years ago and the PPC processor that went out of production years ago?
Now Hyperion has chosen to lock OS4 into another closed hardware platform called the X1000. This will only serve to push Amiga further down into an already microscopic niche that most won't buy into, not even the most die-hard Amiga fans. As I said earlier, I can't imagine more than one or two hundred X1000s being bought. Most people won't be able to justify the cost, let alone afford one with a copy of OS4. I for one won't buy it and any money that I do spend on Amigas will be for a Natami or the FPGA Replay board so that I can remember how fun the Amiga once was. Now, whenever I look at my PegII running O4.1, I'm only reminded of how overpriced the OS and hardware really are and how feature-lacking OS4 is compared to the rainbow of operating systems I can run on my PC. And I haven't even touched on the lack of decent software for OS4.....modern web browser, modern office suite, video editing, etc....etc.....
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QuikSanz
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 1:33:46
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Super Member |
Joined: 28-Mar-2003 Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca. | | |
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| @ferrels & all,
On topic please.
Chris
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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 1:36:09
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12795
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ferrels
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 2:12:59
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Cult Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2005 Posts: 922
From: Arizona | | |
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| @NutsAboutAmiga
I never said I wanted them to do nothing, you did. I'd rather they open up the OS to a broad range of hardware (video, network, audio, etc) on an x86 (AMD or Intel) processor instead of locking it into another closed platform. And again, I'll say that the mystery module on the X1000 will be used for DRM. |
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QuikSanz
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 6:08:38
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Super Member |
Joined: 28-Mar-2003 Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca. | | |
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| @ferrels,
They chose PPC, that's where it is going to be for a while. Sounds like your looking for AROS.
Chris |
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KimmoK
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 6:49:47
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Elite Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2003 Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland | | |
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| Another use for x-core.
NG Amigas with xena can be shipped with motion detecting controllers without too much extra cost because the hard realtime capable chip is on board already, on every future NG Amiga (I hope). xena/xcore would read sensors and response very fast, no matter what runs on the CPU of the computer. It could result as a better user experience.
And yet another, xcore could be used also for some security enchancements. It might be able to improve security without causing much/any extra CPU load. (according to a recent x86 magazine, antivirus SW/suite can slow down 3Ghz Core2 system boot time almost 3x (from 100 seconds to 280 seconds) _________________ - KimmoK // For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA // // Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer? |
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billt
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 6:59:26
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Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
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| @ferrels
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I suspect it will be a sophisticated form of DRM much like EFI on Apple hardware. Prevents you from running OS4 on other hardware. |
When should we expect OS4 to stop working on AmigaOnes, SAMs, Pegs, and Classic PPC rigs?_________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
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ddni
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 7:45:59
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Cult Member |
Joined: 11-Jan-2007 Posts: 818
From: Northern Ireland | | |
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vidarh
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 10:21:56
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Cult Member |
Joined: 4-Jan-2010 Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway) | | |
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| @ferrels
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Now Hyperion has chosen to lock OS4 into another closed hardware platform called the X1000. This will only serve to push Amiga further down into an already microscopic niche that most won't buy into, not even the most die-hard Amiga fans. As I said earlier, I can't imagine more than one or two hundred X1000s being bought. |
I choose to believe that Hyperion aren't idiots, and that they know their market far better than you do. There's no way 100-200 machines would be worth much development effort for them - even at if we're generous, 200 machines would pay for perhaps 5-6 man months of development. I also choose to believe that A-Eon 1) have some idea of the kind of volumes Hyperion are actually selling, and so 2) have a better understanding of what their potential market is.
I see numbers in the hundreds being bandied about, but if Hyperion only sold in the hundreds they wouldn't be in business today. Which leads me to believe that those who make those speculations have no clue what they're talking about.
Irrespective of that, sure, the X1000 *is* likely to be a niche product. But the thing to keep in mind, which Apple has understood and which PC makers despair over is this: In niches you have margins. The reason Apple is doing so amazingly well is that they make at least 10 times as much per computer after fixed costs than what a PC maker does.
There's of course no way that A-Eon or Hyperion will suddenly become the next Apple. On the other hand, they do have an established - if niche - market that has for a very long time been willing to pay large premiums for hardware that is nowhere near cutting edge performance wise. The nice thing about this market is that it is not performance sensitive - same as the PC netbook market:
Users that need massive performance have gone elsewhere. Doesn't mean the remaining or returning users don't want more performance, of course, but they/we are largely willing to put up with lower performance as a trade off to get a system we enjoy using.
But contrary to what is killing PC makers (people buying cheap netbooks instead of expensive high end desktops and notebooks), the Amiga market is like the Apple market in that people are paying for an experience rather than just the hardware. In other words: They can afford to take higher margins per system and deliver less performance.
So *why* would Hyperion take away part of what creates that experience and port OS4 to some vanilla boring PC for example, and try to compete with what you call a "rainbow of operating systems"? All they'd achieve would be to push into a market that is massively overcrowded and where their margins would be minimal at best. They'd also face the dreaded cost of needing to massively grow their driver support, whereas in the current scenario they can share that burden with a small number of hardware partners.
Again, Apple understands this, which is why they've avoided supporting OS X on vanilla x86 PC's, though the fact that it can be made to run on them quite easily demonstrates that they easily could've made that leap.
But why would they? Their high margin niche has built them into a $177 *billion* company compared to $251 billion for Microsoft, or just a puny $26 billion for DELL, or $166 billion for IBM, and $118 billion for HP. IBM and HP are driven up by their services and printer divisions respectively. MSFT makes a third or so of it's revenues from Office, only a third from Windows and the rest elsewhere (online, other apps etc.).
It's not unrealistic to claim that in terms of market cap, OS X is likely adding as much or more value to Apple than Windows is to Microsoft, despite Microsoft shipping 10-20 times as many units.
Something to think about when considering whether to go after a high margin niche vs. mass market.
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I'm only reminded of how overpriced the OS and hardware really are and how feature-lacking OS4 is compared to the rainbow of operating systems I can run on my PC. And I haven't even touched on the lack of decent software for OS4.....modern web browser, modern office suite, video editing, etc....etc..... |
So run a PC OS.
The reason I am *returning* to using Amiga's is that I'm willing to pay for the experience. Sure, a large part of that is nostalgia, and reaching genuinely new users is another matter entirely, but even 1% of old Amiga-users would make up tens of thousands of potential customers. There's a viable market there, even if it's not Apple-big by any stretch.
And if they keep polishing OS4 that market may start expanding outside of just old Amiga users. Some things needs to fall into place, such as more apps and long standing issues like lack of memory protection and SMP, but given what's been achieved with the small number of developers around, it won't take much to grow a greater momentum.
And personally I think a fairly large number of potential returning Amiga users who'll consider the X1000 will be people like me, who are developers by profession or on hobby basis, and who want a more fun platform to play with (and play for me means writing software for it). Not all of us will have time to release polished new apps, but it won't take many of us before a significant number of "holes" will be filled in terms of software.
_________________ Wiki for new/returning Amiga users - Projects: ACE basic compiler / FrexxEd / Git |
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Jupp3
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 10:29:47
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Joined: 22-Feb-2007 Posts: 1225
From: Unknown | | |
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| @billt
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For an FPGA, I like the idea of attaching a larger one to SAM440 via PCI, and implementing Altivec in the FPGA. |
How much research have you put into this?
Personally, I find this rather "questionable" idea. There are many things, that could make it impractical.
1)Is the FPGA fast enough for doing such parallel processing so that it would actually be clearly faster than CPU executing non-altivec version (or even emulating altivec by itself) code? 2)How to get FPGA to execute certain opcodes in the most efficient way? 3)How to get source data to FPGA, and result back to host? What kind of bus is available? To where? (main RAM?) Is it fast enough to transfer data back and forth, so CPU doesn't end up waiting for data from emulated altivec to arrive, before it can do anything else. 4)There are quite a few G4 AmigaOnes out there. How many OS4 programs actually support Altivec in the first place? 5)Altivec is only good for "certain kind of things", so many programs couldn't really benefit from it much, if at all. 6)Do you assume such low volume card would be "realistically priced", so that it would be cheaper than getting a G4 system (considering G4 would be otherwise better aswell) 7)Does X1000 have Altivec? If not, can we expect it to receive too much support in the future? Same "altivec-emulator card" would need to perform even faster on X1000 to make a difference againist running non-altivec-optimized code on X1000.
Don't get me wrong, I would LIKE to be proven wrong. I just don't think it would be feasible / worth it.Last edited by Jupp3 on 24-Feb-2010 at 10:37 AM.
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vidarh
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Re: What is XMOS on the X1000 good for? Posted on 24-Feb-2010 10:31:33
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Joined: 4-Jan-2010 Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway) | | |
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| @-Sam-
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I would hope that A-EOn/Hyperion have some examples of 'cool stuff' to show us on launch. It would be pretty silly if they didn't. |
It'd be great if they did, but I also think there'll be enough people deciding to experiment, and there's a thriving XCore community that I'm sure will be a good help in providing advice and cool ideas. Hopefully a few of them can be infected with the Amiga virus as well...
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I don't think the issues about frying the motherboard will be true - if they are then A-Eon are being monumentally stupid which - reading TrevorD's posts - is certainly not something they appear to be. |
If people start applying too high voltages, sure, perhaps they'd do some damage. But I'd like to think that if you don't know what you're doing, your first thought isn't going to be to apply random voltages to a chip inside your computer...
Those of us who are a bit crazy in that way (I've been known to solder stuff straight onto pins of the CPU in my old A500...) will probably bother to look at the data sheet first...
And for "normal" users I suspect their use is going to end up being plugging in xorro cards with relatively "safe" stuff designed by someone with less of a cowboy attitude to electronics than me...
_________________ Wiki for new/returning Amiga users - Projects: ACE basic compiler / FrexxEd / Git |
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