@-Sam-

That's exactly my point. Where is the Amiga 500 and Commodore/Amiga now? Same graveyard as several other platforms, i.e. Acorn, TRS-80, Atari, Next.....

@Zylesea

Quote:

Why should there no competition? Amiga is no south pacific island or North Corea. Of course there is competition: Dell, Asus, Apple, your local dealer, ebay. Computers are sold everywhere.

People that are happy with any of those have already left, or are prepared to have more than one box.

Quote:

If you want an Amigaish system, you can chose from 68k emulated, AROS, MorphOS or OS 4. All these solutions need an invest lower than 400 US $ for pretty useable system. Only Amiga OS 4 is the only exception. There you will need to spend much more. And then the question is: Is the extra price worth the performance. Or in other words: Can the X1000 stand the competition.

Anyone who prefers these solutions are unlikely to consider a box designed for AOS4 in the first place.

In both these cases, the market segments are largely different.

I'm not saying the X1000 is completely free from competitive pressure, but it's nothing like competing with a Windows PC or Macs head on - it's a market segment that pretty much wants something very specific and that will spend money on that, not decide not to because we can get a generic PC cheaper (even if it's to run AROS) - even if it's potentially hundreds of dollars.

In other words: It's not a particularly price sensitive market. Unlike the Windows PC market, where $10-$20 +/- can make a difference in peoples purchasing decisions.

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@bennymee

Nowhere did I state OR imply that x86 means more apps. x86 would attract a larger number of developrs because of the reduced cost. A developer using x86 could buy hardware at a tenth of the cost of an X1000 board and start developing almost immediately. He'd have a greater chance at recouping his investment and development costs, AND even if AmigaOS development efforts failed to give him a return on his investment, he could still use the hardware to develop for other operating systems.

Buy an X1000 and develop for AmigaOS and if no one buys your product, you're out a significant amount of money and stuck with hardware that nobody will buy from you.

@Zylesea

Quote:

The market is not sustainable. A good guess is that there are about 1000 active OS4 users and probably less than 2000 copies of 4.1 were sold yet.

On what basis are you claiming this? Are you seriously saying that Hyperion has been prepared to keep this going at a loss leader for this many years? (Because there's no way they'd not be losing money on OS4 with those kind of numbers)

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@BigD Quote:

The X-Core 'Xena' gimmick is not enough on its own to launch this product at the sort of quantities discussed!

I really wonder why people bother predicting failure. It's far too late for Hyperion to change their plans, and we don't know all of them by far. Hyperion either succeeds or fails, and no amount of criticising is going to change that. About all you will do by predicting failure is make success less likely (which is no doubt what *some* people hope).

As (potential or actual) *OS4 users*, what we should be doing is enjoying & discussing OS4 usage itself, since that's all we can actually do. Sam440 makes a nice machine, and I have no doubt the X1000 will too. I'll let Hyperion worry about their bottom line.

edit: I have no doubt that the Amiga's past history of failed companies has accustomed us to being cynical & extremely questioning about every venture. But we now have it better than at any time since Commodore went under, and I would suggest that now is the time to *support* Hyperion, rather than try to smash them down with more criticism.

Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Feb-2010 at 07:22 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Feb-2010 at 07:04 PM.

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@ChrisH

Hear, Hear!

Getting really fed up of the negativity attack from, what 5 or so site users? Wish I had the dicipline to ignore threads like these!

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BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@broadblues
Getting back on topic, here's what Hyperionmp had to say on 14th January:
Quote:

@vidarh Quote: The main advantage is *not* technical - you're right, it could most likely just be put on PCI or we could use the USB dev kits, unless A-Eon are integrating it far more tightly than we so far have any reason to believe. The integration is pretty tight. Moreover, I very much doubt it would be practical to put several XMOS chips on a USB card unless you intend to limit yourself to a rater limited number. Yes, you can put an XMOS chip on a PCI card but you'd be taking up an extra slot which could be used for other purposes. Quite frankly, I fail to see why putting the 7 USD XMOS chip onboard as opposed to inserting it in USB or PCI slot is a big deal. If that logic were followed, all I/O should be located on a PCI, PCI-E or USB bus because you have SATA, USB 2.0, ethernet, soundcards etc. based cards/controllers which fit into these slots. Why is anyone still making Southbridges? I recall the days when the Atari ST did not ship standard with a blitter. Result: games companies would target the lowest common denominator and would not use the blitter because it was not guaranteed to be present. Awful Atari ST to Amiga ports were made (like Outrun) which did not use the Amiga blitter because the Atari ST version did not either and it was deemed not worthy of the extra expense.

(Actually, that whole thread is required reading, and people shouldn't post here until they've at least skimmed all 11 pages.)


Also, this thread has a similar topic to the current thread, and is probably more on-topic & actually useful...

Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Feb-2010 at 07:16 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Feb-2010 at 07:16 PM.

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@ferrels

Quote:

I do run a PC OS. I run several of them and they run rings around anything offered in Amiga land in terms of price, features and performance. if you're looking for nostalgia, stick to a classic Amiga or wait for a Natami or Replay board.

I do too - mainly Linux. My Linux laptop is probably more powerful than the X1000 will be, and it cost 390 GBP. There's no way the X1000 will be price competitive with that. Which is 100% besides the point - it's not "fun" hardware in any sense. It doesn't have the feel of the Amiga (nor, for that matters, does it have the feel of the more than twice as expensive Macbook Pro it replaced, that was slower and had less memory; but this time I had better things to spend the extra money on, and I don't see OS X as nearly as interesting to play with as AmigaOS)

And no, a classic Amiga doesn't cut it (I ordered a Minimig to play some games on, but I can't imagine using it for much more) - while I loved my A500 and later A3000 when I used them, classic is very clearly showing its age, and while I may want a Natami once it's ready because it's "fun", it's pretty much in the same category.

I want the X1000. That's what made me *come back* to the Amiga community after 12-13 years away. Not for performance, or for cost, but *despite* performance and cost, because it looks like it will be *good enough* in those respects to give me what I enjoyed about the classic Amiga in a "modern enough" package to be something I can use day to day, and that would easily be worth shelling out well in excess of $1000 for.

Quote:

Continuing to push your user base into an ever increasing niche in terms of price isn't a business model headed for success

First of all, the SAM Flex isn't disappearing just because the X1000 is coming out. That is, unless the Amiga-market is so price insensitive that we're all prepared to pick a significantly more expensive model over it, in which case your point would definitively be moot. In other words: Either the market happily bears the price, or the entry level cost doesn't change.

Secondly, tell that to Apple. No direct comparison intended, but your claim above falls on it's own because there are clear counter-examples where *increasing* the price gap has been wildly successful: While the average selling price of PC's is steadily dropping, the average selling price of Macs stay put - compared to PCs, Macs have been getting *more expensive* over the last couple of years, despite increasing sales volumes.

In fact, if you're a niche provider, the *last thing* that makes business sense is to make controversial (with your customers) changes that makes your product more generic, because it pushed you into direct competition with high volume, low margin providers. Take note of the fact that Apple, for no *technical* reason have taken pains to make sure that Apple hardware is still not really all that interchangeable with "normal" PCs after their switch to x86.

Personally, if OS4 were to be ported to generic x86 hardware I'd likely just lose interest again. I already have 5-6 generic x86 boxes at home - I don't want one more, even if it's running AmigaOS.

Clearly I'm not alone in thinking this way, or everyone would've left or switched to AROS etc. a long time ago.

Quote:

As for holes in the software, AOS4 has been out for years and the holes haven't been filled. Why would they get filled now when developers have to buy another even more expensive platform when they weren't developing for the LAST hardware platform?

Because at least some of these developers are *new* (or returning). I, for one, intend to start writing software for AOS4. In the meantime I've started experimenting with writing stuff for Aros and I'm sure I'll cross compile some stuff for classic too when I get my Minimig. But they are diversions - what I want to program on is AOS4.

And the number of people actively developing for AOS4 is small enough today that it won't take many people
to make a drastic difference.

_________________
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@ferrels

I disagree with about everything you say.

Example:
"stuck with hardware that nobody will buy from you."

One gets more money from selling any old Amiga, when compared equally dated other HW.
And by buying x1000 one is not locked in developing to just that platform. One can still target all platforms + xcore.
(also when developng the stuff on x1000)

IMHO: Amigalike OS gives something special for the user. Some things that no mainstream OS (or Haiku or Puppy etc.) has been able to do. It's the Amiga fun.

Anyway, let's see if AROS (on x86) one day gains more popularity and SW than the other Amigalike OSs. And I think Ares One is planned to have a custom x86 motherboard? I will be surpriced if it manages to be cheaper than SoC PPC boards.

Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Feb-2010 at 07:40 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Feb-2010 at 07:34 PM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@vidarh Quote:

And no, a classic Amiga doesn't cut it ... while I loved my A500 and later A3000 when I used them, classic is very clearly showing its age

This I very much agree with. Despite me running Amithlon (and later WinUAE) on hardware that was probably twice (or thrice) as powerful as my current Sam440, AmigaOS 3.x eventually did not cut it as a serious "everyday OS" (aging looks, lacking of modern software, and pretty poor stability even with very few patches).

OTOH, AmigaOS4 is wonderful to use, and I haven't looked back.

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@vidarh Quote:

That is, unless the Amiga-market is so price insensitive that we're all prepared to pick a significantly more expensive model over it, in which case your point would definitively be moot. In other words: Either the market happily bears the price, or the entry level cost doesn't change.

Most people went for the more expensive (high-end) versions of the AmigaOne, despite the extra cost. So I think that *real* Amigans are (in general) I less concerned about price than you'd think from the forum posts. So unless the X1000 costs more than £1500, I expect it to sell "surprisingly" well... (Certainly Hyperion should have the sales data to tell them what prices people are prepared to pay.)

Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Feb-2010 at 07:47 PM.

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@ferrels

Answer one question.

Without consideration for all you have gone into thus far, and without
pondering more at this time. A short, no ifs or onlys, answer.

Do You Want One?

@Mechanic

Quote:

A short, no ifs or onlys, answer.

Did you stop beating your wife?

Some questions can't be anwer without ifs and buts. I, for one, can't answer that without important data: price, CPU, other OSes support, warranty, options.

Edit: to asnwer

Sub 1K Euro price, a decent CPU (1.6-2+Ghz), support from AEon to one or more current Linux distributions, two year warranty. OS4 included in price. I want that very, very much.

Last edited by opi on 24-Feb-2010 at 08:22 PM.

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@opi

Quote:

Did you stop beating your wife?

I had to, it's dinner time.

Quote:

Sub 1K Euro price, a decent CPU (1.6-2+Ghz), support from AEon to one or more current Linux distributions, two year warranty. OS4 included in price. I want that very, very much.

So, Yes.

But just to twist the knife a little,,, what if it had all that, except the warrenty was
22 months.

@opi Quote:

Sub 1K Euro price, a decent CPU (1.6-2+Ghz), support from AEon to one or more current Linux distributions, two year warranty. OS4 included in price. I want that very, very much.

$100 price, a fast CPU (3Ghz quad-core), 2 year warrenty. OS4 included in price. I want that very, very much.

Doesn't mean it's realistic or likely though...

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@ferrels

Impression I get from you:

You think the Amiga platform is dead, and a waste of time. You don't like the idea of the new X1000 machine and you fail to see how it'll make any difference to a dead, niche platform because it'll be too expensive, too slow, and it can't possibly make any money.

Ok. Fine - you're entitled to a negative opinion about the Amiga platform if that's what you choose. The only thing I don't understand is... why are you still here?

This is an 'Amiga' forum. The people on here (the vast majority, anyway) are pro-Amiga and they are in favour of new machines, and further OS development. We understand that in order to keep these developments going, we have to pay a premium for the goods because it's a niche platform compared to the mainstream PC/Mac market. We accept it, and we're happy because the platform keeps on going.

The point is, no amount of your negativity is going to convince us otherwise, because we're happy with the progress that is being made on OS4 and we're happy that we're getting further hardware developments. I don't understand why you feel the need to try and pour scorn on it, when you could just go back to your cheaper, faster, better PC platforms and live happily ever after?

[shrug]

Apple_Hammer

Last edited by Apple_hammer on 24-Feb-2010 at 10:41 PM.

@vidarh

Quote:

vidarh wrote: @Zylesea Quote: The market is not sustainable. A good guess is that there are about 1000 active OS4 users and probably less than 2000 copies of 4.1 were sold yet. On what basis are you claiming this?

Some experinece I got while being part of this community for many, many years. And as a hint take for example downoad times of a must have app like OWB. It is in the range of 600-700 times.

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@KimmoK

I don't think AROS will be any more or less popular than any other flavor of AmigaOS. It's just too obscure and lacks too many features to taken seriously by anyone other than Amiga enthusiasts. I wish it was different. I'd like to see Amiga relive its glory days, but those days have long since past and won't be coming back.

@Mechanic

Yes, but the price prevents me from making the leap. I just can't justify the price.

@Apple_hammer

I'm still here for the sake of nostalgia, just like most of the others who are still here. I'm waiting for a Replay board or a Natami, whichever becomes available first. If I'm in the market for bleeding edge technology and operating systems, I don't think Amiga and neither do most of the people here. So why do so many people here hang on to the idea that the X1000 will somehow put the Amiga back on the leading edge of anything? Then they get offended when it's pointed out to them? I'm entitled to my opinion just like everyone else. If you don't like it, that's too bad. I never said you had to agree with me!

Even OS4 is an antique in terms of technology. It won't even work properly with the USB 2.0 ports on my PegII. For goodness sakes, how long has USB 2.0 been a standard? Heck, USB 3.0 is available now and OS4 isn't even working properly on version 2. Oh, but OS4 will take over the world! What kind of drugs do you guys take? I need some of them!