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HenryCase 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 28-Mar-2010 22:16:22
#121 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 728
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
Leo wrote:
It's not obvious... Otherwise there would be work on that. And a new API ready for that... in 10 years, I guess it's more than enough.


The thing is AROS was pretty much ignored early on from what I can tell (of course it wasn't really ready for users at first, but more devs would have been welcome), it's only relatively recently that it's been getting the respect it deserves in the Amiga community. If the Amiga community had properly embraced AROS from the start, who can tell where we'd be now.

Also, it's highly amusing/irritating (take your pick) that whenever people talk about these new features nobody seems to draw out what they should look like (beyond vague mentions of must-have features).

If you actually cared that much about having a modern API for the Amiga you'd do something about it, helping design an API that will give you the future you seek. Seeing as you are not doing so I can only assume you're not that serious and/or have been too lazy.

Last edited by HenryCase on 28-Mar-2010 at 10:29 PM.
Last edited by HenryCase on 28-Mar-2010 at 10:20 PM.
Last edited by HenryCase on 28-Mar-2010 at 10:18 PM.

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Hans 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 28-Mar-2010 22:22:53
#122 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:

Quote:

Stop annoying everyone stating completely obvious things repeatedly.

It's not obvious... Otherwise there would be work on that. And a new API ready for that... in 10 years, I guess it's more than enough. And poeple would jump at my throat each time I dare talking about it: "we don't need it!", "my os doesn't crash!", "go to windows !", "I want compatibility, I don't care"


Just because no-one has fixed it yet, does NOT mean that no one else apart from you understands the problem. It is obvious, and you're incessant harping on about this, and criticizing everything is annoying others. We're happy with the progress that has been made on our respective favourite OSes to date, and meanwhile you continue to proclaim loudly that it all still sucks, and it's not good enough, because it doesn't have SMP, and this, and that, and something else.

Continual negativity is counter-productive, and that's exactly what you're doing. It's destructive and breeds resentment, so it's not surprising that "people would jump at your throat."

If you actually want to encourage people to improve Amiga OS 4.x, AROS, MorphOS, or whatever, then I strongly suggest that you change your approach. There's a pretty long list of things that need to be improved, or added to the OSes, and none of it is going to happen overnight.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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damocles 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 1:50:54
#123 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@HenryCase

Quote:
If you actually cared that much about having a modern API for the Amiga you'd do something about it, helping design an API that will give you the future you seek. Seeing as you are not doing so I can only assume you're not that serious and/or have been too lazy.


And to butt heads with 3.1 purist? I highly question if that is worth it or not. At best, take AROS64 with a couple of great coders, and bend it into something not AROS (not API wise) would be the only way I could see it. And even that, it's going to take alot of man power to do it properly. And if your going to have to beat the crap out of 3.1 by developing a new kernel, may as well start with a solid kernel with a huge amount of support and documentation already on the web and skip the driver hell for the most part.

_________________
Dammy

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damocles 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 1:52:15
#124 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
If you actually want to encourage people to improve Amiga OS 4.x, AROS, MorphOS, or whatever, then I strongly suggest that you change your approach. There's a pretty long list of things that need to be improved, or added to the OSes, and none of it is going to happen overnight.


If ever.

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Dammy

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HenryCase 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 2:26:19
#125 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 728
From: Unknown

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote:
@HenryCase

Quote:
If you actually cared that much about having a modern API for the Amiga you'd do something about it, helping design an API that will give you the future you seek. Seeing as you are not doing so I can only assume you're not that serious and/or have been too lazy.


And to butt heads with 3.1 purist? I highly question if that is worth it or not. At best, take AROS64 with a couple of great coders, and bend it into something not AROS (not API wise) would be the only way I could see it. And even that, it's going to take alot of man power to do it properly. And if your going to have to beat the crap out of 3.1 by developing a new kernel, may as well start with a solid kernel with a huge amount of support and documentation already on the web and skip the driver hell for the most part.


Why would you have to butt heads with 3.1 purists? You already have a perfect platform for your new API ideas (Anubis), you don't have any 3.1 purists taking part in that project do you? The issue is not that these purists (like myself, you could argue) think that the job should be finished based on the current goals before moving on, but rather that yourself and the rest of the Anubis lot don't have a clue what a new API will look like because you haven't taken the time to develop it, instead I've seen bikeshedding on what compiler to use, what window manager to use, and other such pointless trivia. Before picking out your tools you should have an idea of what you're trying to build.

Anubis is a chance for a clean break, take it. If the new direction results in something people want then they'll gravitate towards it. It's not rocket science.

Last edited by HenryCase on 29-Mar-2010 at 02:34 AM.
Last edited by HenryCase on 29-Mar-2010 at 02:33 AM.
Last edited by HenryCase on 29-Mar-2010 at 02:32 AM.
Last edited by HenryCase on 29-Mar-2010 at 02:27 AM.
Last edited by HenryCase on 29-Mar-2010 at 02:26 AM.

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Manu 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 5:32:58
#126 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

So far I see Leo keeps avoiding two questions.

-Why don't you start efforts yourself bringing SMP/MP/ABC/XYZ/123 into any amiga like OS ?
- Which Amiga-like operating system do you fancy, which one do you use (daily/monthly/twiceaweek) And what do you like about it?

Two easy questions if you are burning to help us poor rootless chlidren and "left behinds" with 25 years of no progress.

Last edited by Manu on 29-Mar-2010 at 08:44 AM.
Last edited by Manu on 29-Mar-2010 at 05:33 AM.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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KimmoK 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 6:45:15
#127 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Manu

"us poor rootless chlidren and "left behinds" with 25 years of no progress"

Well said!

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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HenryCase 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 8:04:34
#128 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 728
From: Unknown

@damocles

Quote:
HenryCase wrote:
Why would you have to butt heads with 3.1 purists? You already have a perfect platform for your new API ideas (Anubis), you don't have any 3.1 purists taking part in that project do you? The issue is not that these purists (like myself, you could argue) think that the job should be finished based on the current goals before moving on, but rather that yourself and the rest of the Anubis lot don't have a clue what a new API will look like because you haven't taken the time to develop it, instead I've seen bikeshedding on what compiler to use, what window manager to use, and other such pointless trivia. Before picking out your tools you should have an idea of what you're trying to build.

Anubis is a chance for a clean break, take it. If the new direction results in something people want then they'll gravitate towards it. It's not rocket science.


I would like to apologise for these comments. It's not right to single you out damocles. Also, I am glad the Anubis project exists, it has potential to be something great, and its existence helped AROS continued momentum by removing much of the bad blood. Saying that, I do think there is some truth to what I said before, Anubis will only start being something worthwhile when it offers new Amiga technologies like a new API, hope that is clear. Recommend looking up the discussion on NTUI that was on AW.net a couple of weeks back for somewhere to start.

Last edited by HenryCase on 29-Mar-2010 at 08:05 AM.

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Anonymous 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 14:47:38
# ]

0
0


Do we think Hyperion, AROS and MorphOS developers could be persuaded to share their ideas with each other and define standards?

All 3 Oses are stronger for the things they have in common, and I'd like to see the senior developers talking to each other away from the glare of the regular Amiga forums.

Hyperion?
MorphOS people?
AROS developers?

I'm sure most of us would love to see you talking to each other about the most important step facing the 3 OSes...

Chris

 
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A1200 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 14:50:15
#130 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3087
From: Westhall, UK

@clebin

Good luck with that. If you get that to happen, can you start on the Middle East next?

_________________
Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

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Anonymous 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 15:05:14
# ]

0
0

@A1200

Well, I'm free Wednesday if that's any help!

So, who do we think would or wouldn't talk to who? Any of the parties actually involved, please feel free to give your own answer!


Hyperion to MorphOS?
Hyperion to AROS?
AROS to MorphOS?
AROS to Hyperion?
MorphOS to Hyperion?
MorphOS to AROS?


Chris

 
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Leo 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 15:11:53
#132 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

Just because no-one has fixed it yet, does NOT mean that no one else apart from you understands the problem. It is obvious, and you're incessant harping on about this, and criticizing everything is annoying others.

Of course. For me it shows either it's not possible or that it wouldn't worth the effort... and wouldn't work correctly.

and no it's not obvious... It could have been obvious that MorphOS will focus on QBox when ABox would be finished... And guess what ? They announced they wouldn't do it. Now it's obvious they won't do it.

Unless some head of AROS development clearly mentions it and it appears in official roadmaps it won't be "obvious"... And I don't wanna waste my time if that's not clearly the target. I want a new OS, UAE is fine for running 3.1 software.

Quote:

We're happy with the progress that has been made on our respective favourite OSes to date, and meanwhile you continue to proclaim loudly that it all still sucks, and it's not good enough, because it doesn't have SMP, and this, and that, and something else.

It's not about the progress, it's about the target, which isn't defined.

Quote:

Continual negativity is counter-productive, and that's exactly what you're doing. It's destructive and breeds resentment, so it's not surprising that "people would jump at your throat."

It's more constructive to criticize Amiga's flaws than spitting on Windows...

Quote:

If you actually want to encourage people to improve Amiga OS 4.x, AROS, MorphOS, or whatever, then I strongly suggest that you change your approach. There's a pretty long list of things that need to be improved, or added to the OSes, and none of it is going to happen overnight.

Unless a new modern OS is the goal, and compatibility is dropped/gets less to no ressources assigned to it, I surely won't waste my time...

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

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BigBentheAussie 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 15:23:33
#133 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

@clebin
Quote:
Do we think Hyperion, AROS and MorphOS developers could be persuaded to share their ideas with each other and define standards?


HA.
I know this is probably going to sound biased, because of the history and bad blood.

If AROS is a purists implementation of AmigaOS3.1 API.......then logically, once that is complete, wouldn't the AmigaOS3.9 API be next? I know OS3.9 probably doesn't matter, but I use it for the sake of argument. Once the OS3.9 API is complete.....Here is where it gets controversial.

If you could actually get everyone involved in AROS to agree that AmigaOS4 is the natural successor of AmigaOS3.x, as I, as many on *this* particular forum believe, then would it not make sense to follow their APIs, and thus implement their approach to dealing with issues like SMP, memory protection and whatever else?

I know it might be tough to get all AROS devs to agree that Hyperion are the mother company in terms of AmigaOS concepts, but does that not make sense from a logical point of view? Or even an outsider's point of view? I mean, isn't the next milestone after a full AmigaOS3.x is reached going to have to be AmigaOS4.x API compatibility? (Even if that is 20 years away)

So why not copy the OS4.2 APIs, and in so doing, aspects of their approach to solving SMP? What have you got to lose? Surely some direction is better than none.

At the very least, considering they will have to be working on SMP right now, isn't it wise to look to Hyperion for direction in terms of AmigaOS API advancement? It's not like anyone in AROS is really working on SMP now is it. And Hyperion and the Morph teams, because of "Not Invented Here" syndrome, probably won't listen to anyone else anyway. Also why diverge so much from AmigaOS4? Surely following an OS4 API would re-unite the development community somewhat.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

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damocles 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 15:37:50
#134 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@HenryCase

Quote:
Why would you have to butt heads with 3.1 purists? You already have a perfect platform for your new API ideas (Anubis),


Anubis is pretty much dead. RIP.

_________________
Dammy

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damocles 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 15:44:29
#135 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

I think AROS should be following OS4's lead in all honesty if 3.1 API completion is that critical to AROS. To be consistent and all that.

_________________
Dammy

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Fab 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 15:50:26
#136 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

So why not copy the OS4.2 APIs, and in so doing, aspects of their approach to solving SMP? What have you got to lose? Surely some direction is better than none.


Is it wise to follow something going into the wall? :)

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damocles 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 16:29:19
#137 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@Fab

Quote:
Is it wise to follow something going into the wall? :)


Only if it's quick and painless.

_________________
Dammy

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radical 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 16:29:57
#138 ]
Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2010
Posts: 40
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

No, the next logical step isn't 3.5, then 3.9, then 4.0 compatibility...

The next logical step is to look at the current implementation and decide where to go from here. Since gallium graphics codes are being implemented, it would make sense to integrate its available and upcoming features into AROS in an Amiga-ish way.

Since OWB uses many pieces of non Amiga OS 3.1 API code, like webkit and its own progressive image loading (a feature missing from AmigaOS datatypes), it make sense to integrate those technologies and features into AROS in an Amiga-ish way.

There is nothing stopping anyone who seriously wants AROS (as an Amiga like UI) running a native SMP kernel from writing one and porting AROS to it -- except a lot of work. Start with making a hosted build, and then work on integrating it...

Until recently AROS was very feature incomplete for its part (the Amiga UI internals) to make that a worthwhile project, and they still could use some work...

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Anonymous 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 17:35:49
# ]

0
0

@BigBentheAussie

What APIs do you mean specifically?

Quote:
If AROS is a purists implementation of AmigaOS3.1 API.......


But that's not what it is, even today. AROS has things that 3.9 or even 4.1 don't have.

Quote:
I mean, isn't the next milestone after a full AmigaOS3.x is reached going to have to be AmigaOS4.x API compatibility? (Even if that is 20 years away)


Come on Ben - 20 years? Are we talking about the same two OSes?

Quote:
So why not copy the OS4.2 APIs, and in so doing, aspects of their approach to solving SMP? What have you got to lose? Surely some direction is better than none.


Hopefully this would work out well, but I have some concerns.

Firstly, it's not a given that OS 5.0 will be out before AROS developers make their own solution. Look at what one man could do with AROS 64, which is already technically the first memory-protected Amiga-like OS I believe!

If Hyperion develop something in private with no consultation, then what if developers don't agree with the solution? It's no good for anyone if we end up with another ReAction - incompatible and inferior to the alternatives.

OS 4.x developers should expect more openness and democracy on issues like this, since they are directly affected by Hyperion's decisions. As many of Hyperion's most important customers port their apps to other platforms, I hope they don't simply see it as someone else's problem.

Chris

 
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serk118 
Re: Video, Aros Media Performance
Posted on 29-Mar-2010 18:05:34
#140 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 685
From: London(uk)


I lost my hd while trying to install aros on a usb pen-drive & my acer aspire D150 had Aros & xp on a dual boot & i lost all my work while trying to recover xp than i also lost my aros but here i am after clean install.

someone said here uae and i had to say no thank you thats for wondoz users & as amiga aros user why should i emulate amiga when i can Run aros on most x86 boards today & thats something i always wanted to do just boot amiga from a x86 hw & thank you aros team.

Nobody could stop os4 team when they went for ppc hw & i was holping for x86 version of os4 or mos but guess what aros went for x86 & doing things right so far & i hope to see aros shine more better than any other os`es coz it has been done by amiga users & to amiga users.

>AROS -its for x86/ppc - maintained by none payed users - open source -
>MOS -ppc only ?
>OS4 -ppc only ?

aros is the only amiga os like os that uses 3.1api that runs on todays cheap x86 hw
and
who cares about the mem protection or etc just enjoy whats cooked & what you got today & tomarrow is a another day.




_________________
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http://serk118.blogspot.com/

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