@Leo

DOpus is portable nowdays, so I bet that it is amongs the first one on the memory protected side.

(and I have still not seen a filemanagement that beats Dopus4 (I should look harder, perhaps))




From a link of some post above, slightly offtopic, but anyway:
Old document about OS speed: http://www.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/papers/osfaster.pdf

Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Mar-2010 at 10:12 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 30-Mar-2010 at 10:04 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

It was talked about before that we could have 2 AROS versions. One that is AROS classic other that is AROS NG or something like that.
The idea is good and there is not reason not to start it there are developers that have the knowledge to do it.
Some said here what is the point being compatible with 20 old software.
This statement is again wrong. We are compatible with Amiga. Lots of software are still in development.

I give you example of what make AROS nice.
DOpus 4 - sure is old, but the best file management program ever made.
Wookiechat - great irc client still in development.
YAM - nice e-mail program sitll in development
Jabberwokie - IM program still in development

This are just some examples. If we where not amiga compatible we could not have those programs.
One thing is doing another OS but there must also be people doing software for it.
This is what is difficult.

Last edited by nikosidis on 30-Mar-2010 at 10:49 AM.

@Trekiej

Quote:

SMP,Memory protection,etc is fine too.

SMP and full memory protection is impossible under AmigaOS.

There where many discussions and many explanations about why it could not work.

What could be done without breaking compatibility is "some memory protection" and "some multi processing", that would not be the same and it would not be as perfect as reall SMP and Memory protection.

For a system with real memory protection, you would need a lot of changes at Exec and API, the result would be incompatible, old progams with OS3/4 like APIs needed to be closed away in a sandbox without giving them real system access.

A goal for AROS could be:

A Bounty for x86 memory system, with memory protection for unused RAM via MMU.

A Bounty for a subsystem, that could handle simple slave processes without system access for multi core systems, together with an emulation for single core CPUs

But you still need programmers who would like to do the programming.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@HenryCase

Quote:

Arrrgggghhhh, it's like people don't know how to read... minator, in the very same post you quoted I pointed to the memory protection solution that would be suitable for AROS, AmigaOS, MorphOS, etc..

This doesn't solve the problem, the problem is not whether the memory is organised one way or another. The problem is the memory is shared and applications expect this.

It might be easier to add this system, but If you activate any memory protection on any data structure an application expects to access, all you'll get is a quick visit to the Guru.

So it has fundamentally the same problem, all existing apps will break.

The only way to add memory protection to and Amiga OS is to use some form of boxes (independent address ranges) with the existing OS in one box and everything else in other boxes, the specifics can be different but you still end up with boxes of some form. It's the same thing Apple did when moving to OS X.

It can be done, but it's neither quick nor easy.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@minator

There's something seriously wrong if 20 year old software is controlling the development of your operating system....

@persia, Leo etc.: You missed the point of AROS. In the first place AROS is a re-implementation of AmigaOS3.1 on x86-Hardware (with new features added). If you don´t like this, then AROS is the wrong OS for you.

But then AmigaOS (including MorphOS and AmigaOS4.1) in general is the wrong OS for you. So you have to wait, if one of the AmigaOS-flavours will have a larger rework in the future or move on wit an other OS.

I (like many others) prefer to have fun with the things we have and enjoy AmigaOS4.1 and AROS.

_________________
AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@persia

+1

@nikosidis

If these programs are still in development, then they could also easily be ported. We are not talking about an entirely new OS here, simply a new generation of one.

@Leo Quote:

What's the use of keeping compatibility with 20 years old software anyway ? It's not like Amiga had some office/visicalc suite being used by thousands of people

....except, if you have an AmigaOS that doesn't run any Amiga software (like say AmigaDE/AmigaAnywhere) then it isn't really an AmigaOS, certainly people probably won't accept it as one, and they'll probably see just as much reason to use UAE running on OS X or Linux or whatever.

BTW, I think this is proof that "The Name" is not nearly as important as some people believe.

Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Apr-2010 at 08:39 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Apr-2010 at 08:39 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Apr-2010 at 08:38 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Apr-2010 at 08:37 AM.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

Quote:

....except, if you have an AmigaOS that doesn't run any Amiga software (like say AmigaDE/AmigaAnywhere) then it isn't really an AmigaOS, certainly people probably won't accept it as one, and they'll probably see just as much reason to use UAE running on OS X or Linux or whatever.

But you have *native* apps. That's *not* nothing... Now that most apps have been ported/rewritten: what's the use of keeping 68k compatibility ?

If OS4/MorphOS even switch to some other processor, are we going to have to keep compatibility for PPC... and 68k as well ?!

The purpose of a transition is to reach a goal... when it's reached, the transition is over, and you ditch the past...

Quote:

then it isn't really an AmigaOS

Of course it is... OS4 doesn't run apps that hit the hardware... so a lot apps won't run already: does it mean it isn't "AmigaOS"... This is just called evolution. And sometime you have to get rid of some software. But if you want to be able to run these old apps this is just against evolution... Because there's no way you can at the same time improve drasticly and stay compatible...

Does MacOSX 10.6 run Classic apps ? No. But it's still called MacOS, and seeing the millions that are sold each quarter, it's not a problem for most apps...
Does Windows 7 run DOS apps ? No...

If an AmigaOS NG (a real one, modern, and free of legacy), keeping a lot of AmigaOS features (datatypes, clean disk layout, assigns,...) was to be written and had enough apps, believe me, it would still be called "AmigaOS", and no one would matter it wouldn't run their kickstart 1.1 applications... no one at all.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo Quote:

But you have *native* apps. That's *not* nothing...

Fair point :)

Quote:

If OS4/MorphOS even switch to some other processor, are we going to have to keep compatibility for PPC... and 68k as well ?!

Probably, if you don't want all hell breaking loose from users who cannot access their favourite apps... Although UAE may be bearable for at least some of those apps.

BTW, I don't see it is a *requirement* that you ditch the past - it's just easier & more convenient for the OS developers if they do so. Apple could have continued to support OS9 on Intel Macs if they had really wanted to (it just wasn't worth the effort in their eyes, due to the large amount of apps written for OS X by that time).

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@persia

"There's something seriously wrong if 20 year old software is controlling the development of your operating system...."
Nicely put!

IMHO, it also weird when 40 yeras old CPU architecture is controlling the SW development.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

IMHO, it also weird when 40 yeras old CPU architecture is controlling the SW development.

Indeed, this 40-y-o architecture (which actually is 30 y-o) evolved very much from its conception and today is barealy recognizable under tons of enhancements. I'm not so sure the original 8086 could afford virtualization, MMX and SSE instructions, multiple cuncurrent threads, 64-bit computing and so on. But I am sure that on the x86 side there has been a vitality other architectures haven't proved to share.

@persia

Quote:

There's something seriously wrong if 20 year old software is controlling the development of your operating system....

Even on April Fools Day, I'll say I'm glad someone gets it.

_________________
Dammy

@KimmoK

Quote:

IMHO, it also weird when 40 yeras old CPU architecture is controlling the SW development.

Come on, 68000 isn't that old!

_________________
Dammy

Quote:

BTW, I don't see it is a *requirement* that you ditch the past

It becomes a requirement when the past is what drives (ie: prevents) your development: this past is what prevents AmigaOS from being modern today. But if you're happy to have some sort of compatibility for a processor released 32 years agoand an OS released 16 years ago, fine...

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

x86 is based on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8008 (1970 or so -> 40 years)
PPC is from 1990?

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

x86 is based on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8008 (1970 or so -> 40 years)

x86 is based on the 8008 as much as Motorola 68000 can be based on the 6800. Please don't pointlessly mix different architectures (the elders were 8 bit microprocessors, the later 16 bit and over).

@Arko
I was thinking in General.
It would be nice to run the old Aros Kernel on the new Aros Kernel with SMP, etc.
I am not for sure what it would take. I am not knowledge-able about sand-boxes.

Wine comes to mind, no not the liquid.

Last edited by Trekiej on 01-Apr-2010 at 06:10 PM.

_________________
John 3:16

@paolone

I think PPC is not evolution from 68k.

(I wonder why 68k was mentioned in the first place)

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Leo Quote:

It becomes a requirement when the past is what drives (ie: prevents) your development: this past is what prevents AmigaOS from being modern today.

I don't see that is the case - AmigaOS can move forward while still retaining backwards compatibility. Apple did it with OS9/X, and arguably even Microsoft have done it with Windows (albiet more gradually).

Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Apr-2010 at 07:03 PM.

_________________
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