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      /  The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
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radical 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 2-Apr-2010 16:18:23
#21 ]
Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2010
Posts: 40
From: Unknown

@HenryCase

Quote:
In your vision of a next generation Amiga operating system, will it be single-user or multi-user?


Both. It doesn't make sense for developing user systems without having a similar server system available. You wouldn't want your users don't have to learn multiple OSes/UIs in a small business or school computer lab setting.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 2-Apr-2010 16:27:56
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@radical

I completely agree, and there is way more too it then what meets the eye,
At least if we are taking about small, medium and big business, using a Microsoft framework.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Apr-2010 at 04:29 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Apr-2010 at 04:29 PM.

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HenryCase 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 2-Apr-2010 19:15:18
#23 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 728
From: Unknown

@radical

Quote:

radical wrote:
@HenryCase

Quote:
In your vision of a next generation Amiga operating system, will it be single-user or multi-user?


Both. It doesn't make sense for developing user systems without having a similar server system available. You wouldn't want your users don't have to learn multiple OSes/UIs in a small business or school computer lab setting.


There's no such option as both, if you want multiple users then the option you've picked is multi-user.

There's nothing wrong with picking multi-user, but there is a challenge involved too, can the elegance of AmigaOS be kept? Time will tell.

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Arko 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 2-Apr-2010 19:22:11
#24 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:

aq number 3 (on main page) that hints at GPGPU streaming apps to be supported

GFX driverscould be integrated everywhere in MS-DOS, Win3.11 ansd AOS4.x it doesn't improve the OS just some drivers

Quote:

along with powerfull new Graphic Driver system (that will make new GC avaialable way earlier)

Earlier ? that meand before X1000

Quote:

and of course SMP also coming
Look on the Hyperion homepage, SMP is not mentioned.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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DAX 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 2-Apr-2010 20:26:53
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Arko
Yes but they said they will start work on it as soon as the X1000 port of Aos is finished, Rogue himself said it in the podcast interview,

By the way, this second post of yours was made just in time for the brand New Sam460ex announcement (talk about no future...) give up!

P.S.
Before you say they don't mention Aos I will give you these hints: Max from Acube is now a contributing Aos developer (he is the one that posted the news-item on AmigaWorld's front page), and their main site shows the news with an image featuring a BoingBall (not to mention they already develope an AmigaOS 4.1 driver for the silicon image chip) enough said...

Last edited by DAX on 02-Apr-2010 at 10:20 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 3-Apr-2010 1:43:57
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@HenryCase

Quote:
can the elegance of AmigaOS be kept?


Yes, I have written a simple patch for it, but there some problems so I won't, advise it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Apr-2010 at 01:44 AM.

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Arko 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 3-Apr-2010 21:46:01
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

Sorry for changing this thread into an AOS4 Yes/No thread.

@Paolone

What do you think would be the best way ?

A)
Branch AROS to

"AROS classic" with target on AOS3.x (maybe AOS4.x + MOS ) API compatibility
and
"AROS NG" a system with Amiga like system calls but without API compatibility and without shared system structures.

"AROS Classic" and "AROS NG" should share as much code modules as possible, later versions of "AROS NG" could try to use (S)MP and full virtual memory (with memory protection as a result of virtual memory)

B)

Stop any further development of "AROS classic" ( except bufg fixing and applications)
Try to do what Anubis wanted to do, setup a "AROS NG" system with an kernel borrowed from a IX system ( BSD or Linux ), setup a Amiga like GFX-system, AHI audio-system and filesystem, together with an Wanderer ( AROS workbenc ) like GUI with Zune ?



@HenryCase

is there still something going under Anubis ?
There where some parts I didn't like:
1. Objective C seems to be a bit exotic, I would prefer plain 'C' or 'C++'
2. It seemed like they would use X11.
3. It was hard to decide if they where just making another strange Linux distribution or something that will look and feel like an Amiga ( filesystem, GUI )
4. It was wrong to introduce Anubis as a total break with AROS, I believe it is important to present Anubis as some kind of AROS NG.

Last edited by Arko on 03-Apr-2010 at 10:56 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Leo 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 3-Apr-2010 22:16:11
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

"AROS NG" a system with Amiga like system calls but without API compatibility and without shared libraries.

Why without shared libraries ?

_________________
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Arko 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 3-Apr-2010 22:58:19
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:


Why without shared libraries ?


shared system structs ... thx you are right, I corrected it

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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paolone 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 4-Apr-2010 16:21:26
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1128
From: Unknown

@Arko

I've started this discussion for no practical reasons, but just to verify some ideas I got discussing here, in other topics.

Frankly speaking, my - maybe wrong - idea nr 1, is that there is a very high interest in "stepping forward" the AmigaOS, but low interest in spending money to support this huge effort, 'cos leveraging AmigaOS to a 2010-degree operating system is not simple. I simply wanted to understand how many people would answer "here I am, gimme the new OS and hardware, and I'll pay any amount of money for it", how many would simply ignore the issue, going on with their ultra-modded A1200 running OS 3.9 or 4.0, and how many just talks.

Then, there is the 2nd idea, which is somehow related. Providing that the current model, and my mind comes principally to AROS which is, like it or not, THE open-source brother of AmigaOS 3.x, might be "outdated", I would really like to understand how people would like your "AROS NG" shaped like. Since we can really go forward this discussion, and we would end-up into something like "an operating system with a solid kernel, good compatibility with hardware able to run native software and old-gen software in sandboxes" (and this can be valid even for AmigaOS 5.x), I would also be curious to know how many current Amiga owners would be glad to buy a similar operating system, providing it will be completely different form the current one, and use it on their machines. Or, even better, buy dedicated hardware to run it.

This is not a market research. Well, someone might be interested to look at the results for this motivation, but to me is a simple curiosity.

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Arko 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 5-Apr-2010 19:04:53
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@paolone

Quote:

paolone wrote:
@Arko

I simply wanted to understand how many people would answer "here I am, gimme the new OS and hardware, and I'll pay any amount of money for it", how many would simply ignore the issue, going on with their ultra-modded A1200 running OS 3.9 or 4.0, and how many just talks.


Most people here sees AROS as an alternative OS, the original AmigaOS will be AOS4 bacause it is based on orig. Sources and has the orig. name.

If you woul pesent them AROS with a good working UAE, sandboxed AROS classic, more applications than AOS4, good scaling SMP and real memory virtualization on a 400 Euro dual core 4Ghz PC most of them woul say: "Nice but it's not an Amiga"

It starts with the Amiga ( and other computer) websites:
AOS3 is Amiga, AOS4 is Amiga, AROS is an alternate OS. Telling them future Amigaoid-OS could not be based on original code is futil, you could tell them about better and newer APIs, this doesn't count as long as you cant print the original AmigaOS Logo on it.

I had payed more money to AROS bounties than AOS4 would cost but most hardcore Amiga fans woul ignore AROs even when it would be exactly everything they wanted, as long as the AMIGA name is missing.

Quote:

Then, there is the 2nd idea, which is somehow related. Providing that the current model, and my mind comes principally to AROS which is, like it or not, THE open-source brother of AmigaOS 3.x, might be "outdated", I would really like to understand how people would like your "AROS NG" shaped like. Since we can really go forward this discussion, and we would end-up into something like "an operating system with a solid kernel, good compatibility with hardware able to run native software and old-gen software in sandboxes" (and this can be valid even for AmigaOS 5.x), I would also be curious to know how many current Amiga owners would be glad to buy a similar operating system, providing it will be completely different form the current one, and use it on their machines. Or, even better, buy dedicated hardware to run it.


I'm very dissapointed about most so called Amiga Fans. A lot of them are just moaning about decissions they don't share but I doubt they will change to AROS even if they coul influence the direction of AROS development much more than any closed source OS.


Quote:

This is not a market research.


Why not, you can set up a poll:
[_] would you pay 200 Euro for a Open Source Amiga OS with SMP for x86
[_] would you pay 200 Euro for a closed Source AmigaOS4.x for x86




Quote:

Well, someone might be interested to look at the results for this motivation, but to me is a simple curiosity.


I don't think the result would be very motivating, I have spotted a lot of pejeduces against AROS here and on other pages bute even if there would be a perfect working AROS it would be ignored by most people.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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saimon69 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 5-Apr-2010 20:08:30
#32 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2007
Posts: 303
From: Los Angeles, CA

@Arko

Sounds to me like those people that, even having in the pharmacy the brand-free version of a painkiller, in spite of the fact that is the EXACT same product less the brand, prefer to spend twice the money for the brand... and is not only on pharmacy.

Saimon69

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jeanluc72 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 5-Apr-2010 20:24:05
#33 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Jan-2009
Posts: 27
From: Unknown

@all

I find this thread a very interesting discussion. I tend not to write much in the forum here, because I do not like to argue much about pros and contras (and a lot of threads tend to be like that). I just want to share some "experiences" I made in the last couple of months as a returning Amigan. This is my little contribution to who it may (not) concern

Who I am?
I work as a professional developer since 1993, and I have seen a lot of (r)evolutions in the past 17 years. Coming from "basic dbase and clipper" and going over Assembler, C and C++ to frameworking/OOP like .net, GTKMM and QT was really a revolutionary thing for me, and I am very happy I learned all these things so I can look back to a very nice learning process, and it makes a good picture on my curriculum vitae I do embedded driver development for WinCE and Linux, and also application development for Win/WinCE and Unix/Linux for several businesses like healthcare, industrial, banking and so on.

I can only express my views and my experiences from the last year as I returned to the Amiga world around december 2008. Me and some fellow programmers are "ancient" Amigans, we used to have A500/1000/2000 in the 80's and had a lot of fun with it (also coding). We heard about SAM, we bought SAM and started to play around with it. Also AROS has been in our intrests for a couple of months. We wanted to develop FOR the Amiga, WITH the Amiga. And me personally, after a year, my "fire" for the Amiga is down to a very little flame again. And I will try to tell you why...

We analyzed some tools to program with, and came to the conclusion, for our needs, nothing seemed to match. As an old friend of mine told me once, "do not compare, it is evil", I did make the mistake and compared developing possibilities on Windows and Linux machines towards Amiga. For me (please note, this is only my view on things), the result was: "oh no... not like that...".

We had several discussions in our little "Amiga interested" group, and started to build a plan to get things "going" for us on the Amiga. 2 goals were set: 1. create an IDE, and 2. create a usable Framework. I mean, we did not want to create a framework for writing demos (like SDL,...) but we wanted to create something which gives you the possibilities to do work in an organized way, for building big projects, which really needs more as a texteditor and a C-compiler called from cli. This would definitely not satisfy our needs.

Without wanting to produce vaporware, we announced the C++ NEAT Framework which idea was born from QT. And everyone who reads the forums now and then probably will remember the reactions on it:

- we do not need a C++ framework, the old C api is fine
- can't you port QT.
...

With a few exceptions, no one was interested in this goal. So... we "paused" these ideas and returned to our Linux boxes, on which we just had to type "apt-get" to install one of our desired tools and use them. We also found out quite some weird stuff about how AOS4.1 is ticking under the hood, but I do not want to make many comments on that one. I only say: to cross compile or not to cross compile. AKA: adtools on sourceforge Really: no comment on this one.

Anyway, the last couple of weeks I have been doing a lot of research concerning embedded systems. The embedded world is definitely changing rapidly. Embedded was for a long time a very specialised thingy, but since the Atom processors became pricely and quantity available, it has become very easy to do work in the embedded world if you talk Linux. Frameworks are there, languages as much as you desire, and tools, well, go and get some, and do your work (this includes XMOS: a very nice toolchain exists for Win and Lin users by the way

As I tend to reflect my ideas sometimes, the last 2 weeks I did so regarding the Amiga. (Mostly because I had 2 weeks of vacation). Am I having fun with my Amiga? It was not turned on for 2 weeks. Pitty... Why was it not turned on? Because I do not see the use for it anymore. I mean, it is cool to see it boot, and get the workbench loaded. If I show it to people they mostly first think a Linux box is booting, but if I show them what is under the hood, there are mostly very supprised about beeing it an Amiga in a "next gen" hardware.

But then I start to read in Amigaworld and some other Amiga community sites... and search about topics concerning development, and lifting the API to a higher level of abstraction (because, come on guys, THIS is what we are talking about : ABSTRACTION from the low level API). I see only one thing, there has been NO (r)evolution at all here, and I think by myself: I do not want to code in 2010 like I did as a kid in 1985. My goals have a bit changed if I talk about software development, some scrolling sprites and stuff is just not that what I want to do anymore.

And then, I again make my dreadfull mistake, and start comparing again. I see Linux and GNOME, going into the next abstraction level called VALA. I see QT doing abstraction quite successfully since more then 10 years, even so successfully a multibillion dollar company like NOKIA buying them out to get there hands on it. I see Microsoft successfully going into the next abstraction level with .Net, I see HAIKU (or for the ones who do not know it, the next generation BE), and I see abstraction with a C++ api. I see Apple doing the abstractions with Objective C and the Cocoa Framework (I allways tend to call it Kakao framework, but never mind on that one).

And you know what? They were not build in days.... Gnome comes from plain C, wrapped with C++ at a certain stage, going further with VALA. Microsoft coming from Ansi C Api, going to C++ with MFC and now continuing abstraction with C#/.Net. Same goes for Apple. Coming from NextStep, now on Objective C with Kakao... erm.... Cocoa. And so on and so on...

And then I look back to Amiga, or Aros. And what do I see... I see the year 1985 with Kickstart 1.3. And I do not see much more. I do not see a (r)evolution concerning abstraction. I cannot give up the idea it should be possible to "lift" the Amiga to a next abstraction level. But I do not see any possibilities with minor resources available a commercial company like Hyperion doing it. I only see a little community arguing about what is better for the userbase, not even beeing able to decide to "give up legacy compatibility or not" like with AROS. (Sorry for these harsh words, but this is my impression after one year of reading all the forums and threads on a daily basis).

Let us focus on the future as in the future of today, and reflect what others have been doing. This is the only way the Amiga can grow into a future and really survive, and not only survive, but grow it's userbase. I personally am not going to make my "fun" depending on a company working on a OS without even disclosing/documenting its own API. The old books and homepages about how to use the ancient C Api are getting rare these days you know. Perhaps there is a reason for it they DO get rare

The Amiga X1000 is the next thing. I was very excited about it. It will have XMOS onboard. While XMOS has plenty of documentations and source-examples on their site how you do development for this nifty processor, I did not see anything else as some funny marketing thing saying "Amiga is going to have XMOS" on board. Nice. Very nice. But how it will be connected to the Amiga system, so I can start making thoughts on how to do some work for it? The Germans have a word for it: fehlanzeige. (which means as much as: dream on). And please do not come to me with an argument like "NDA". I do not think XMOS is interested in not showing what their processor can do in an Amiga system.

I face "my facts" now: I am definitely NOT having fun with my Amiga.

yours,
JeanLuc

(for those wo think: what is he weening around, and doing nothing: take a peek at http://amineat.net A LOT of work was done until now, and we hope we can invite some people to help us with the development of our abstracting framework. Nevertheless: without help, this beast will not be ready until we are going for our retirements Perhaps It could be the base of the next gen api... Or perhaps it is not.

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Arko 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 5-Apr-2010 21:31:50
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@jeanluc72

If you want to interest people for your framework, support as much Amiga flavours as possible: AOS3, AOS4, AROS, MOS.

We had a lot of people with great Ideas for IDEs with or without integrated GUI toolkits, give the people some example code, show them how to generate a window, buttons, file requesters. Abstarction seems a hard stuff first, so show people what they could get, before shocking them with things they have to learn.

Is your framework Open Source ? Becauese a lot of good tool and ideas disappeared because the programers lost interest, it woul generate some confidence if the software will be acailable if you loose interst.

---

BTW.: here are still some hobby programers asking for PEEK and POKE. If someone likes to change the color of an GUI object he should be able to do something like:
UpdateWindow(WindowHandle, Window.button1.color, green);
or better
Window:struct:button:color = gren; // as far as I remeber C++

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Krashan 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 6-Apr-2010 6:13:35
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 154
From: Poland

@jeanluc72

If you really see no differencies between 1.3 Kickstart and modern Amiga(like) systems like AmigaOS 4 or MorphOS, it just means you either do not look deep enough, or you just do not want to see. Amiga API has been migrated on many hardware platforms completely different from classic Amiga hadrware. It wouldn't be possible without abstraction.

Take into account, that the fact you are used to some way of abstracting resources, it does not mean it is the best way, and even if it was, it does not mean Amiga has to use this way. In my opinion systems like Windows or Linux have way too many layers of abstraction. Adding another ones does not make software better or more effective, just increases bloatness and hardware requirements. New layers of abstraction are also needed sometimes to hide the mess created before.

What I like in systems I use and develop for (it is MorphOS mainly, but AmigaOS 4 as well) is lightness, effectiveness and simplicity. Of course having a complete IDE with all the bells and whistles would be nice, but the difference is, on Amiga it will just add some comfort, on Linux or Windows programming without an IDE is just pain. This is because of level of complication of these systems.

If you are really interested in Amiga ways of handling abstraction, take a look at BOOPSI (object oriented general purpose framework), MUI (oo GUI toolkit), ReAction (AmigaOS 4 native GUI toolkit) Reggae (MorphOS media processing frammework), AHI (audio hardware abstraction layer) and more. Seriously, if I had wet dreams about QT, .NET, VALA, and having 25 layers between my application and hardware, I do not need any Amiga(like) system for it. You do not need it too.

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BigBentheAussie 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 6-Apr-2010 9:58:30
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

The sad fact is that it is impossible for any group of developers/users in Amigaland to agree on anything ever, especially on a public forum. You might have some luck PM'ing certain developers if you need assistance or want validation of your goals, but all open forums will crush you and are incredibly hostile.

Therefore you will never get a next gen API that will fulfill ALL the community's requirements. If anyone is left out, FAIL, if it is deemed un-Amigaish, FAIL, and on and on, regardless of the validity of their claims. All you will get is whining and 'add feature xyz and I might be interested' comments. Feature xyz probably wasn't in your design goals at all, and even if you had it would probably be a waste of your time. Sometimes I think people do it on purpose to stall projects.

I am sure these things are infuriating for anyone trying to get any project going in Amigaland, whether you have the intention of lowering the knowledge barriers for entry or work on any other software. These same people will complain for lack of software while thwarting efforts to lower the barriers for software creation because it is not done 'the Amiga way'. You will never see a level of enthusiasm about your project or API as you have yourself. I am really at a low point too, because I don't see the point of even trying with any of my goals relating to anything Amiga or alike. I've determined to take this year off, to work on a project, that blows my mind at least....and I am doubtful I could stomach porting to any Amiga&alike for the inevitable negativity.

Being a windows developer for the last 15+ years I see the benefits of abstraction, and would probably require a similar type of abstraction in order to program anything for the Amiga. But part of me believes that there is a conspiracy amongst current Amiga developers to deliberately prevent this from happening. Everything to them has to be low-level....and even current abstractions, libraries and compilation methods are too low-level and stuck in 1987. Nothing is turn-key as it is on other systems. So many hoops to jump through, that you throw your hands up in surrender.

My understanding, at least in regard to OS4, is that there was mention of Hyperion or someone associated, currently developing an IDE to be released with OS4.
There are IDE projects coming out of the woodwork for AROS, that are taking the community by surprise. Of course as good as a dedicated OS4 IDE may be, because it doesn't support or breaks compatibility with some other faction's development technique, it will be criticised to death.

I have seen some good discussions on this forum about various API abstraction solutions, but all the parties suffer from NIH syndrome, and go off and re-invent the wheel in isolation from everyone else. It is only if something comes out fully realised that it will have any chance of general adoption, but even then it is unlikely for all the reasons I have mentioned above.

I believe there are many people currently working away at the moment, who don't bother to comment on any forums due to the negativity they will inevitably incur. And then you wonder why Hyperion devs rarely comment and if they do are hostile. I wish everyone luck and I wish posters would just chill out and stop being so childish.....and while I'm wishing, world peace and an end to hunger worldwide.

And why the hell did I just comment.....I wish I didn't care!!!

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Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

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paolone 
Re: The old age API, the NG dream and the real life
Posted on 6-Apr-2010 12:26:31
#37 ]
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Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1128
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@jeanluc72

I would like to write a more verbose answer, but I am at work, so no time to do it. I wil just sum up: if you have an interesting project for any Amiga-like OS (better, for all) just don't ask or don't look for people agreeing with you. Don't listen to anyone but people giving good suggestions, and DO IT. Whiners are always here, always. You must separate useful criticism from troll whining. In the end, you'll find many thankful people for what you have done. Regards

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