@Ruud

Quote:

Could somebody (other than DAX) really argue that Workbench is a better desktop than Ambient?

Well, thanks for that example, because it illustrates quite nicely what I mean. I have never seen or used Ambient, so I cannot comment on which one is better.

Yes, Workbench needs work.. Lots of it. There is a ton of features that it lacks.

Graphics need work too. And file systems (although JXFS is really a good one).

Should we prioritize Workbench just because "Ambient is better"? The answer is no. It doesn't matter what desktop filemanager is better, nor does it matter in how far Ambient is better than Workbench. The point is making Workbench better, and eventually we will do that, but the decision to do so, and the direction to develop into, will be independent of what MorphOS or AROS does.

That is the point, we DO know where our system lacks, but just because there might be something better "on the other side" is no reason to do it. Improving the user's experience is the reason. This isn't a competition, and we do not regard it as such. It's about making a good product.

At the show in Essen I overheard someone say "We regard this as a competition". Which, I think, is the wrong motivation to do something. Development should be driven by user's needs, by what is good... not by envy and hatred for whatever the other side has.

Because in the end, Windows will always have more features than we have.

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@Leo
Quote:

The question is: what do you want ? AmigaOS4 ? MorphOS ? Or the best of both plus some applications ?

That is exactly the "ein platform, ein community" drivel that Opi referred to. "Cooperation" in your view means one side surrenders. I've been through this discussion before, and it was as wrong then as it is now.

You seem to think that you have any "rights" or "claim" to something. Let me tell you, you don't. There are two teams making a product, and as usual, you can either take it or leave it. If you don't like it, fine. Don't buy it.

I don't think that is hard to understand.

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@cv643d

Quote:

What an insult to the community, so this is the opinion of Amiga inside Hyperion? TD, do you share his opinion to?

Of course, someone had to come up with that.

For the record, I speak for myself, not for Hyperion. But if you think otherwise, that there is even a remote chance to beat Windows or MacOS or even Linux with any AmigaOS-like system, you are deluded. Microsoft has its own contracted company to cook the coffee in their offices. Do you really, honestly believe that there is any standing up against this? And if we were to rise to enough power to even appear on Microsoft's radar, they would either buy it all, or stomp it.

That is not an insult. An insult would be to lie to the community about this.

No, 1970, I am no pessimist. Quite the contrary. I do hope and I do believe that the Amiga market can become a valid, workable and self-sustaining market again. I do believe that one day, software companies will be able to make a living from the Amiga market.

But that does not mean I am crazy enough that Modern Warfare 25 will be an Amiga title. It won't. Lots of games company are leaving the PC and concentrate on consoles. Even if an Amiga company would invent a machine that has 1024 cores and teleports hookers into your living room, Modern Warfare 25 will be a PC and console title at best.

Quote:

Anything is possible, once upon a time that was something Amiga owners understood.

"Once upon a time" is how fairy tales start.

Sure, we *will* try to get as big as possible. But I know very well what is possible and what is not, and if you really think that AmigaOS or MorphOS or AROS will ever replace Windows, MacOS or even the tiny fraction of multi-million Linux systems, you are just fooling yourself.

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@Rogue

Quote:

I don't think that is hard to understand.

It is for Leo..., you really need to learn to ignore him & the other trolls, please. I would rather see you post information then waste your time fighting the people that have no interest in OS4.

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@cv643d

Quote:

What would happen if Churchill was pessimistic during WW2? I guess you get the point no?

Right, and what about Hitler's optimism that he can actually beat Russia? Your comparison doesn't hold.

Quote:

With the right leadership Amiga can become no1 again, just look at Apple back in 1997 and where they stand now, who thought they would crush MS one day.

No they can't. The only reason that Apple still exists is that Microsoft pumped money into them. They didn't want Apple to die because of the monopoly it had created.

Nevermind. This discussion is getting more than silly, and off-topic.

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@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote: There is nothing wrong in being a healthy niche (well we are unhealthy right now but we could grow healthy again). Think of it as an Elite Club of happy geeks

I agree with what you say, but not with the way you say it.

This system is not in a niche, but rather there is a large wall of
niches and different people will use their system in different ways.

We are not all geeks (well, I guess I am) but rather Computer Enthusiasts
seeking a system that allows us to be us, and have fun doing it. And there
are many thousands of our type out there ranging from newbie to old pro.

@Rogue

Quote:

You seem to think that you have any "rights" or "claim" to something. Let me tell you, you don't. .

Thanks for the post Rogue.

Exactly what I was talking about a couple posts back.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32142&forum=2&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0#573106

I don't know why I bothered to register after all these years.


Users vs Developers has always been the real war. I've never seen any place where dev's hate their users so much.

@clusteruk

Quote:

Lets not make them want to give this great work up.

This doesn't have anything to do with motivation, or being grieved. It's a plain and simple fact, and quite honestly, I am more than a bit surprised that it came as a shock to some people. Reality check, folks.

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@Valis

Quote:

Users vs Developers has always been the real war. I've never seen any place where dev's hate their users so much.

Nice try. I don't hate users. There's quite a lot of them, and I try to be helpful to everyone if I can.

However, I do wonder why people make demands. When we picked up the pieces of what was left from AmigaOS, the owners had left it to die. We made it into what it is now. I get a lot of these "If I were them" kind of posts, but reality is, without the AmigaOS 4 dev team, there would be no AmigaOS anymore.

In the end, it's listening to what the users want, and make a decision. We do the work, and all we ask for it is 100 Euros. If you don't like the color, don't buy the car, but do not demand that Ford makes a white car. You can ask politely, and maybe they'll do it. But if you insist that you have the right to get a white car, it will likely fall on deaf ears.

As usual, don't like it, don't buy it.

And with that, I leave this thread alone. Here's stupid me thinking that a discussion on an Amiga forum could be factual and productive. I should have known better

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@eliyahu

Quote:

why is there such bad blood between the amigaOS and morphOS user and developer communities?

That's what you see at times because both groups are still around and you can therefore view their interaction and interpret it that way.

The real villains (individuals, not companies) have been absent from the scene for a long time, and are therefore, not a sustaining means of entertainment for the troops.

I hope you're not offended by my portrait of the wars as entertainment, but sadly that is how many of the participants view it. Oh..and egos run rampant and destroy most opportunities to work together. This all occurs due to lack of leadership, which has been absent since the Commodore era (regardless of how you view Commodore).

You may also want to blame the internet, as I can not imagine anyone would have had the ability to spread this negativity with such speed during the "print" days.

#6

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@Rogue

Quote:

teleports hookers into your living room

You rock !!

Martin

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@Rogue

Quote:

Nice try. I don't hate users. There's quite a lot of them, and I try to be helpful to everyone if I can.

Your actions speak louder than words. Look at your posts here full of anger. You respond to me with, Nice Try. Accusing me of something, what exactly I'm not sure. Why do you post like that?

Quote:

However, I do wonder why people make demands.

I'm referring to people that ask Hyperion not the programmers necessarily. How many times have people asked for just an idea of the Hyperion road map. Are they doing any planning on the next year? 5 years? There have been years of examples, but take the X1000 currently. What is Hyperion's plan with that? From a few steps back there seems to be no short term or long term gain from this project. People just want to know what the plan is.

But what we here is exactly what you posted above.
"You seem to think that you have any "rights" or "claim" to something. Let me tell you, you don't."

Quote:

and all we ask for it is 100 Euros.

Is that what you see? It takes 1000 Euros to get into AmigaOS 4 Rogue. I know you know that.

@Valis

I think you should do something with your frustration. I suggested Chaos Engine, but Populous II is also nice game. And if I have really bad day, I usually play Gloom Deluxe...

@Valis
Where do you see the hate I wonder. Just because they don't want to make a ton of promises doesn't mean they are not working hard on it.
I've seen more stuff from last January till today then the previous couple of years, I don't think it's the right time to complaint. it is the right time to be giddy at what's next.
Even if they don't work the needed parts in the order you would like the important thing is that they are worked one after the other. Eventually they will be all updated.

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Quote:

Rogue wrote: Even if an Amiga company would invent a machine that has 1024 cores and teleports hookers into your living room..

How about teleporting both OS4 team and MorphOS team into the same room to sit down and have a cup of coffee together?

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@Darth_X

Quote:

How about teleporting both OS4 team and MorphOS team into the same room to sit down and have a cup of coffee together?

Hmm...since Hyperion and Amiga Inc. required a mediator, I think your little gathering would require a similar solution.

#6

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@Darth_X

Believe it or not, that would actually work out well. The hated exists only in the forums.


@number6

Err, he said the MorphOS & OS4 teams...

Last edited by sundown on 28-Jul-2010 at 11:01 PM.

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@sundown

Quote:

Err, he said the MorphOS & OS4 teams...

Yes, I know.
That one would take 2 mediators minimum.
And prolly about 4 translators to tell the mediators what the speaker meant to convey. heh.

#6

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@number6

You forgot about the hookers, I see...
Bring back the cowboy hats...

Last edited by sundown on 28-Jul-2010 at 11:33 PM.

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@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: @Ruud Well, thanks for that example, because it illustrates quite nicely what I mean. I have never seen or used Ambient, so I cannot comment on which one is better.

Really, you've not seen any screenshots of MorphOS with Ambient as it's desktop?

Quote:

Should we prioritize Workbench just because "Ambient is better"? The answer is no. It doesn't matter what desktop filemanager is better, nor does it matter in how far Ambient is better than Workbench. The point is making Workbench better, and eventually we will do that, but the decision to do so, and the direction to develop into, will be independent of what MorphOS or AROS does.

I wasn't suggesting you prioritise Workbench. The point I was making was that in the case of comparing Workbench to Ambient, which is "better" or "worse" is not a subjective matter. Ambient is clearly better and sadly you can't argue otherwise because you've not used Ambient (or even seen it!?) and compared them

The other point I was making is that it is a good idea to pay attention to what AROS and MorphOS are doing so that when you do come to do something you have the oppurtunity to think "they did that well, we'll do somthing similar" or "they really messed that up, we'll do it this way instead".

Quote:

That is the point, we DO know where our system lacks, but just because there might be something better "on the other side" is no reason to do it. Improving the user's experience is the reason. This isn't a competition, and we do not regard it as such. It's about making a good product.

Maybe if you did consider it a competition your OS would be better than it is? Healthy competition can push people to create extraordinary things.

Quote:

At the show in Essen I overheard someone say "We regard this as a competition". Which, I think, is the wrong motivation to do something. Development should be driven by user's needs, by what is good... not by envy and hatred for whatever the other side has.

I don't think your competition is driven by envy. What have you got they want? A very tarnished brand name?
Again I think you miss the point. When i play games I am very competitive I want to beat them, that is my motivation. It makes me try harder but it doesn't mean i hate or envy my opponent if they beat me. This is slightly different when applied to a creative process but if you don't feel a competitive urge chances are you will always be lagging behind those that do.

Last edited by Ruud on 28-Jul-2010 at 11:50 PM.

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