@Leo

You can pretty much expect a SOFTWARE DEVELOPER to take the stance that improvements should come from SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT. Rather universal, I believe.

Now, BUSINESS MANAGERS, on the other hand. Those buggers will often buy competitors or insist on technical details with little regard for the SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS sense of honour

Given that Rogue is a SOFTWARE DEVELOPER, it is not strange that he is interested in seeing how far he can DEVELOP his product. It's his job after all. The job of those around him is to point in the wanted direction (aim) and motivate (fire). Acquiring or copying competitive technology can be a great way to catch up, but it sucks in terms of leading the field.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Minuous

IMHO, Amigans.net is more like morphzone than amigaworld. More fanatic support of a color.

I personally might not be Amigans.net member without it being the official AOS4 forum site.

Amiga.org seems to be the core place of nay sayers or something like that? Sometimes it seems that moobunny has taken over amiga.org.... (but perhaps I've visited amiga.org only during "bad days" of the internet)

Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Jul-2010 at 09:33 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Rogue

"I do believe that one day, software companies will be able to make a living from the Amiga market. "

Interesting to notice that I dream about the thing you believe in.

Also, it would be nice if Amiga market could offer an usable and affordable alternative to Joe the Average user. I think neither that is impossible. Only the "world domination" things are impossible for our niche. (on the other hand .... we are the leaders of the survived microcomputers beyond x86 ?)

@pavlor
"I want Amiga computer powered by AmigaOS.."
+1

But to me the name does not need to be specificly "Amiga".
When I use a OS and it feels like AmigaOS, it should be (about) enough for me.

Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Jul-2010 at 07:32 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Jul-2010 at 07:31 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK
Amigans.net is mainly a tech site where problems, bugs and programming tips make the majority of the threads/posts.
I don't see any fanboyism there and popcorn lovers consider it a quite boring site, what minuous wrote to me doesn't reflect there the way he depicts it (not even close).

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SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@KimmoK

Quote:

moobunny is taken over amiga.org

Hmm.

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X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@Minuous

Quote:

I've noticed some OS4 users are quite fanatical in their hatred of OS3.9 and MOS. Eg. to the extent that if an OS4 program is available for OS3.9 or MOS they get really angry. Even the idea of someone converting one of their OS4 programs to OS3.9 is anathema to them. This seems to happen mostly at amigans.net.

????????

_________________
X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@Minuous
And such users exist in all amiga "camps". If you look around you will see the same from certain blue trolls, aros trolls and even classic trolls.

@Minuous

Quote:

I've noticed some OS4 users are quite fanatical in their hatred of OS3.9 and MOS. Eg. to the extent that if an OS4 program is available for OS3.9 or MOS they get really angry. Even the idea of someone converting one of their OS4 programs to OS3.9 is anathema to them.

Quote:

This seems to happen mostly at amigans.net.

?????????

@Ruud
These days you said to me "I live in the future" more than once, but that's NOT the case.

I was an adamant (and only) multi-teraflops PC guy up to 12 months ago and I still am (but also back to Amiga now), and I find these proclaims of vast superiority (from one side or another, in this case yours) laughable at best. If you come from my same planet (Earth-2010) Both Mos and Aos have a long road ahead of them, Obligement's tests are irrelevant (today the only thing that must be ironed out are the quite ready USB2.0 drivers and 3D subsystem).

3D is an interesting subject as for how faster MOS might be, no Amiga like flavor can claim moder 3D capabilities and in this new Amigaworld we live in after the settlement (things have changed make no mistake) I wonder how the situation will improve on all sides in the coming months.
WB modernization will happen don't worry, but improvements might not be worked on in the order you prefer, and in any case you should understand that It's stuff like being able to use a modern Radeon PCI-E card with new drivers, SMP, kernel advancements and more, that will build the AmigaOS of the future.

I believe Rogue and the AOS team, are (and will) concentrate on the infrastructures that will take AmigaOS where it deserves to be without having to look at yet another "way behind" OS as an example. Maybe they might learn a thing or two from more modern Operating Systems while adding their own original vision.

Can't wait to see what comes out.

But alas I'm confident because things have changed, and if you failed to notice that in the past 8 months (which is incredible considering that in such a short time-frame we received 2 OS updates, 2 new HW projects already presented in public, a ton of updated software that also take advantage of true transparency and the Ringhio notification server, apps such as Blender, FireFox, Gnash, RunInUae, a ton of missing games, + the HW lending program that will produce a lot of good software and so on) you certainly will.

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@Ruud

Quote:

Ruud wrote: @Rogue Again I think you miss the point. When i play games I am very competitive I want to beat them, that is my motivation. It makes me try harder but it doesn't mean i hate or envy my opponent if they beat me. This is slightly different when applied to a creative process but if you don't feel a competitive urge chances are you will always be lagging behind those that do.

In fairness to Rogue and the OS4 devteam, there is no 'objective' to achieve (game to complete). Having spent the last 7 months myself working on a process-based (not task-based) project (attempting to alter the workflows of a company to achieve legislative compliance) I can sympathise with what Rogue is saying.

To see OS4 (or MorphOS) development as a well laid-out path is ridiculously simplistic. The interdependencies, changes in development direction, lack of a fixed 'destination,' feedback from development into planning, etc make development an ongoing - and endless - task.
To have unrealistic aspirations (one more line of code, and we're ready to take over the world) is over-simplistic, counter-productive, and would act to remove the ongoing motivation required to continue working. Let alone the marketing gaffe that would create (should anyone in the 'outside world' actually notice us - see OS5 (better than OSX) if you want a good laugh).

Additionally, I can understand the OS4 teams refraining from laying out development paths and announcement timetables - (recent) history shows that for every OS4 announcement, MorphOS devs tend to release a MorphOS-related announcement (and the same is true vice-versa to some degree). Bad timing? Upping the competion? Stealing the limelight? Giving users a bit of good news to brighten their day? Different people see it in different ways.

On the other hand I can understand the reaction from MorphOS users/devs when repeatedly given the impression that they are not 'welcome' at the Amiga 25th events ("stealing the limelight"), given that these are celebrations of the rich history of the Amiga in which we all share.

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

@opi

Quote:

Lately I realized I prefer three communities that are happy and have 1000 participating people than a community of 5000 people where no one is happy at the end. How would you convince MUI fans to switch to Reaction and vice versa? Workbench vs. Ambient? The list can go on and on.

Just by providing both, as like as Linux does with Gnome and KDE?

@paolone

Heretic!!

_________________
http://www.amigasoft.net

IIRC amigans.net was running some kind of bounty for OS4 apps, I was told I was ineligible because the program is also available for OS3 & MOS. The implication being, that there had not been released OS3 & MOS versions, it would have been eligible.
Clearly that's ridiculous. Is Timberwolf, for example, a less valuable program for OS4 users just because you can get Firefox for Windows? If anything, that makes it better (eg. less for users to relearn), not worse, than it would otherwise be.
Plus, I made the following post in a thread a few years back and got some kind of official warning about it. I still don't see what the problem with the post was, other than that I don't worship OS4 (nor MOS for that matter!): "OK, let's assume for the sake of argument that you've convinced me to upgrade to OS4. Oh, that's right, there's no hardware to run it on and no emulator of it. There goes that idea. (Any reason Hyperion couldn't make OS4 run on generic PPC? I mean, Amino probably wouldn't like that, but I don't [think] Hyperion are too bothered about what Amino think these days)". There's reasonable moderation and then there's just being ridiculous, and that kind of moderation is definitely ridiculous.
Obviously there is now hardware available on which to run OS4, but at the time I made the statement it was correct.

Last edited by Minuous on 29-Jul-2010 at 02:45 PM.

@Minuous
Quote:

Minuous wrote: IIRC amigans.net was running some kind of bounty for OS4 apps, I was told I was ineligible because the program is also available for OS3 & MOS. The implication being, that there had not been released OS3 & MOS versions, it would have been eligible. Clearly that's ridiculous. Is Timberwolf, for example, a less valuable program for OS4 users just because you can get Firefox for Windows? If anything, that makes it better (eg. less for users to relearn), not worse, than it would otherwise be. Plus, I made the following post in a thread a few years back and got some kind of official warning about it. I still don't see what the problem with the post was, other than that I don't worship OS4 (nor MOS for that matter!): "OK, let's assume for the sake of argument that you've convinced me to upgrade to OS4. Oh, that's right, there's no hardware to run it on and no emulator of it. There goes that idea. (Any reason Hyperion couldn't make OS4 run on generic PPC? I mean, Amino probably wouldn't like that, but I don't [think] Hyperion are too bothered about what Amino think these days)". There's reasonable moderation and then there's just being ridiculous, and that kind of moderation is definitely ridiculous. Obviously there is now hardware available on which to run OS4, but at the time I made the statement it was correct.

I would have to agree with you if that is what happened.
I stay the heck away from amigans myself as the moderation there is more strict than amigaworld was in the old days. I think you would have gotten a different picture of the OS4 "camp" if you spent some more time here.

@kudlaty

Quote:

But Clebin's suggestion would work, I think.

Okay I took a look. One problem I see is that OS4 is closed source. AROS code is public. But, what's to stop there being a contribution here?

Quote:

AROS comes with a licence that allows to share code with the other two

Does it really? I don't think AROS needs a license at all, it's a free open source work. Should be unrestricted. But it is interesting it has a licence allowing it to share itself with the offical closed source AmigaOS. How does this work?

Quote:

That's not only a hippie notion, it actually works.

Be nice if it was working right now.

@Tomas
Or maybe when Minuous went there was also to be considered like "back in the day" (in the sense that it was in the past when i reckon the situation was touchy to say the least).

@Minuous
I would suggest to try again there it seems quite a nice place nowadays, they certainly wouldn't refuse if you want to port a program for AmigaOS, just because it is available (or you will also make it available) for MOS and 3.9 too, I'm sure of it.

Last edited by DAX on 29-Jul-2010 at 04:24 PM.

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

About the topic...

To me it seemed that Phase5&Laire wanted to protect their "domination" on AmigaPPC by doing whatever they could to stop WarpUP from running on all PPC Amigas. (at one point companies like metabox seemed to only wait for the PowerUP vs WarpUP war to end before really starting AmigaPPC production)
After CBM died Phase5 had taken the technology leader position and did not want to give it away.
To me it seems laire lives according to the same heritage also during this millennium.
+The war later took also GFX libraries & MUI with it... etc.

And there can not be war without two opposing sides, so there's about equal blame also on some of the red ones.

In the end... It would be nice if AROS becomes the winner in the long run, it could leave the big egoes whining after their lost fame.

- kimmok, ex "priest" of the red camp

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK


who are you and what did you do with KimmoK? j/k

_________________
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"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

@Minuous
Sounds weird, do you have a link to that bounty/contest please?

Last edited by Troels on 29-Jul-2010 at 04:48 PM.

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@Hypex

Pretty much every open-source project in the world has such a license.

Open-source licenses, as usually approved by the OSI, vary in their restrictions. AROS's APL is about as open as it gets, like BSD, or the LGPL (Lesser Gnu Public License). Correct me if I'm wrong!

The most famous license, the GPL (Gnu Public License) requires that any changes to the code must be contributed back and if the code is incorporated into a product that product itself must be released for free under the GPL license. This is a hard-line open-source license that Microsoft once dubbed as a 'cancer' (or at least I think they called open-source a cancer, but it was surely the GPL they referred to)

Linux is released under the GPL, and so is MorphOS's desktop, Ambient. This is why AROS can't include Ambient - because then AROS would have to be released as GPL too.

AROS's license is extremely open. It would allow Hyperion, MorphOS or anyone else to use bits of code. It would be their choice, depending on goodwill, conscience and so on, whether they contributed their changes and fixes back. Of course AROS doesn't have a license that says it can take code from OS 4.


Chris

Last edited by clebin on 29-Jul-2010 at 04:46 PM.
Last edited by clebin on 29-Jul-2010 at 04:43 PM.