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      /  red vs blue: why?
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PosterThread
Spirantho 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:16:40
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2004
Posts: 1044
From: Aberystwyth, Wales

Personally I just ignore the flamefest threads.... they can usually be ignored safely (ditto with some posters).

In my experience, though, there isn't as much hatred between the camps as people believe. People see a flamewar thread and think there's a war between the camps - that's not the case usually. Usual progression is this (os A could be AmigaOS or MorphOS or whatever):

1) Someone posts about something new in os A.
2) Someone posts disparagingly about new feature, and uses it as a cheap shot to attack os A, claiming os B either has it or doesn't need it.
3) 10 people come out in defence of os A, some of which will attack os B in return
4) 10 people defend os B and so and so forth
5) Rinse and repeat.

There are certain people here and other Amiga websites who will take any opportunity available to snipe at the OS they don't like - they're usually responsible for the apparent wars. It only takes a few small voices to create a large furore.

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opi 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:20:41
#22 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@1970

Going against AROS? AROS' legit and in my eyes it's perfect safety route. There will be no cooperation at system level between developers on system level. Reasons are both technical and personal. Not going to happen. 3th part developers, OTOH, are seems to be co-working from time to time. That's all we can hope for.

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Colin_Camper 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:21:53
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2003
Posts: 1188
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Yes there were individuals involved. But also a large army on each side!

Quick summary (It is more tortuous than Lost!) from memory only so please don't hang me out to dry if I got something wrong or slightly out of time.

Amiga (Under Gateway)
Gives up on NG Amiga and talks about a Linux Desktop box type platform.
Bill McEwen and Fleecy leave Gateway.
'GreenBoy' ) and some people behind Phase V (powerup) and the Phoenix consortium, including Bill McEwen & Fleecy start an NG Amiga consortium.
Bill and Fleecy buy assets of Amiga Tech from Gateway including sources for OS3.1 and free use of patents. (They thought they were getting OS3.5 but they weren't).
Amiga Snoq bring out OS3.9 (developed by H&P who hold on to the sources).
Amiga also bring out a development platform based on TAOs elate and announce that this is the future of AmigaOS (Amiga Anywhere and Amiga DE).
The Phoenix consortium announce Morphos as the next gen Amiga platform. Bill & Raquel Buck (Who nearly bought Amiga Inc after the Escom bankruptcy) join Phoenix.
Petro shafts Amigas finances by selling all the new old stock to someone in India for the same money as they were making every month by selling stock in the West.
Amiga Inc stops paying wages, bills & rent etc.
Amiga Inc announces a three way partnership between Eyetech (a prominent UK based Amiga retailer), Hyperion (a prominent Amiga games porter) and itself to bring to the market a new PPC platform and a new version of Amiga OS called OS4 within a year.
Amiga doesn't bring any help whatsoever to the table (as we find out later not even the sources for AmigaOS).
Amiga Inc perpetrates the infamous coupon and t-shirt scam.

At about this time the flame wars between the opposing camps is reaching a crescendo - pretty nasty personal and public fights are happening between people at ALL levels in the community.

Genesi (Bill & Raqcuel Buck) launch the Pegasos 1 to run Morphos. They quickly find an issue with a chip produced by Mai and is also used by Eyetech for their platform.
The infamous 'There is no Mai without April' incident where Genesi release a hardware patch for the Mai chip but Eyetech call it FUD.
Genesi launch the Pegasos II which is well received by the Morphos community.
Hyperion bring out OS4 much later than planned due to Amiga Inc not having sources for any version of AmigaOS and difficulties with large portions of 68k assembler having to be rewritten.
Amiga Inc renege on deal with Eyetech and demand more money. Eyetech leave the Amiga market.
OS4 is left with no hardware.
Amiga inc goes quiet.
Amiga Inc announces it is selling OS4 to a company called KMOS
KMOS is headed by Garry Hare (Google for Garry Hare business card!)
Morphos development continues
OS4 development continues
KMOS turns into Amiga (Delaware)
Garry Hare steps down and is sued by Amiga Inc.(Delaware)
A couple of vapourware OS4 platforms are touted - ACK, Amy etc
Amiga Inc sues Hyperion over OS4
The Morphos development team spectacularly fall out with Bill & Raquel Buck.
Acube bring out a PPC platform and sell it with OS4 - it is well received by the OS4 community.
At this time Amiga Inc announce a vapourware high and low end Os4 system in partnership with ACK controls.
Amiga Inc scam a whole town in the US called Kent over a multi-million deal.
Amiga Inc are exposed in no small part due to the furore of the Amiga community on the net.
Morphos development continues - now ported to the fastest consumer PPC ever and available on cheap Mac minis.
OS4 development continues - Acube on their 3rd gen hardware and Aeon entering the market with a high end PPC system.

The above is further complicated by the existence of AROS which has suffered abuse at the hands of Amiga Inc and Hyperion along the way.

I expect there are a few errors and many, many omissions but it was from memory.


Whoops I can't believe I forgot about the Amiga Inc (Snoq) and Genesi court case!

Last edited by Colin_Camper on 28-Jul-2010 at 02:35 PM.
Last edited by Colin_Camper on 28-Jul-2010 at 02:17 PM.
Last edited by Colin_Camper on 28-Jul-2010 at 01:34 PM.

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Rogue 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:23:59
#24 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:
Because PowerUP people went to make MorphOS and WarpOS people went to make OS4 they can not love each others


That's actually not quite true. I never had anything to do with either PowerUp or WarpOS. At the time they came up I couldn't care less. The initial implementation of Warp3D and the drivers were 68k. Sam Jordan ported to PowerPC, and yeah, he chose WarpOS. A choice I neither supported nor opposed. I was told at that time that WarpOS was faster, but since I didn't have PPC hardware, I didn't know and didn't care.

When all the slandering began, I still didn't have PPC hardware, and I never promoted WarpOS or PowerUP. I might have ended up using PowerUp if I had the hardware at the time, which I didn't because I thought it was way too expensive. Of course, my involvement with Warp3D meant I was branded as one of the bad guys by the PowerUP crowd. When I finally got PPC hardware, I actually had considered porting Warp3D over to PowerUP. However, all the flames I got from the blue camp convinced me to stay away from it.

The rest, as they say, is history.

I do not think I ever made any public statement on PowerUp or MorphOS' quality. I did get quite vocal, however, over the trolling that attacked me or the project(s) I worked on. For me, the whole affair never was red vs. blue. It was trolls vs. trolls. A vocal minority of reds versus a vocal minority of blues.

There's no going back. There is not going to be any reunion. It just drifted apart, and nobody will want to give up what they have. And why should they? It wouldn't be a problem, really, if they all just left each other in peace. However, some individuals are trying to push their solution on the back of the userbase of the other solution, without realizing that the only thing they manage is to chip away the opposing camp's users. They do not switch over, they go away. And in that way, all the evangelizing, in-fighting, and missionary work will only serve to make things smaller and smaller.

The obvious solution would be to leave each other in peace, but that is not going to happen. And so this fighting will go on, until one side ceases to exist.

I am quite sure any number of people will jump on my posting here and tell me that I am a rabid red troll that is actively doing what I was saying up there. I don't care. Contrary to what you might think, I *really* don't care about MorphOS, or AROS for the matter. I do not care whether their OS is better or worse at something. I only care to make our product as good as possible. Things would be nicer if everybody thought that way, but what I heard in Essen last weekend implies it is not going to be that way.

Oh well...

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opi 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:25:34
#25 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Colin_Camper

Very good recoup. We do live in soup opera. :-p

_________________
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Boot_WB 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:28:06
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@Rogue

Good to see you posting on here again (even as a one-off), and nice to hear your personal perspective.

Regards



Rich

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

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opi 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:29:29
#27 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Rogue

Quote:
There's no going back. There is not going to be any reunion. It just drifted apart, and nobody will want to give up what they have. And why should they?


They shouldn't have. Good to see core developers don't follow the dream of "ein platform, ein community". It's impossible. We just need 3th party developers work together. Leave core devs alone!

Last edited by opi on 28-Jul-2010 at 01:30 PM.

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Boot_WB 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:33:45
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@opi

Quote:

opi wrote:
They shouldn't have. Good to see core developers don't follow the dream of "ein platform, ein community". It's impossible. We just need 3th party developers work together. Leave core devs alone!


+1

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

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Rogue 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:36:00
#29 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@1970

Quote:
There should be a reorganization with AOS and MOS, so that the Amiga may go up a division against the rest of the world (AROS).


I am not quite sure what you mean with that, but if you think that AmigaOS or any of its clones can go up against the "rest of the world" (i.e. Windows, Mac, Linux), then I can only advice you to make a reality check.

Let's face it. Anybody thinking they can beat Windows or even Linux is seriously deluded. AmigaOS will never "get back to the top" or anything like it. That chance ended when Commodore was pushing all the profit from Amiga into their PC line. What we can hope is get to a stable and self-sustaining user base that supports commercial development of software.

Lack of vision? Lack of a dream? No. It's just facts.

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1970 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:40:39
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 184
From: Unknown

@opi

Quote:

opi wrote:
@1970

Going against AROS? AROS' legit and in my eyes it's perfect safety route. There will be no cooperation at system level between developers on system level. Reasons are both technical and personal. Not going to happen. 3th part developers, OTOH, are seems to be co-working from time to time. That's all we can hope for.


Well I did not mean it quite literally.
But, after a little while, we could fight against the top league, a top OS.
And get good sponsors, get new famus third-party software.
And it will lead to much greater interest and users for the Amiga, I think.

There are many great developers in all camps.

Last edited by 1970 on 28-Jul-2010 at 01:41 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:40:51
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Colin_Camper

Only simple correction:

Quote:
Amiga Inc renege on deal with Eyetech and demand more money. Eyetech leave the Amiga market.


Do you have any source? You put that phrase before release of Pegasos II (H2 2003), but Eyetech introduced uA1-C in late 2004 and ceased production in 2005.

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Anonymous 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:42:15
# ]

0
0

@Rogue

Thanks Rogue for that great response. I agree, but I think an involvement in open-source would be mutually beneficial to OS 4 and AROS. You don't have to have these conversations in public, and if the developer involved is unreasonable, you can walk away.

AROS now has a few technologies which are ahead of OS 4. If you were to make use of them and commit changes and bug-fixes back, everybody wins. Ok, you are helping AROS, but it doesn't stop OS4 being the more polished, complete and of course official solution.

The most important benefit being to your customers, and what you said earlier: "I only care to make our product as good as possible".

Chris

 
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Colin_Camper 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:44:21
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2003
Posts: 1188
From: Unknown

@Rogue

Well people may say what they may but you are in the 'camp' of people who did something constructive. Ie: OS4.

I think the chances of the X1000 would be greatly improved if OS4 had a ultra low end option - like the EFIKA 5200b. That way people could use it to fiddle around with embedded and XMOS. It would be nice to see an embedded CLI version of OS4 - cheap enough for geeks to buy on impulse. This would drive the high end market for X1000.

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Colin_Camper 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:46:15
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2003
Posts: 1188
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Thanks for the correction - I am getting forgetful in old age!

Quote:
Do you have any source?


Yes but I can't name!

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Zylesea 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:46:42
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@djrikki

Quote:

djrikki wrote:
@eliyahu

I suppose it has something to do with the fact it runs AmigaOS software, even though no legal agreement is in place to allow this AFAIK.

Plus as an Amigafan it becomes annoying to read about what is essentially another operating system pseudo-advertising on this forum. Eg. after the Essen show had finished a new thread MorphOs thread opened up by someone posting 'yay MorphOs the fastest PPC operating system on the planet ever!' or some crap.

Thats my objective reply with no malice.

the red car and the blue car had a race, all red wanted to do was stuff his face. he eats everything he sees from trucks to prickly trees, but smart old blue he took the milky way


Ah, there comes the fuel for the flames lasting on.... Well done!
OMG!

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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rzookol 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:48:03
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2005
Posts: 318
From: Poland, Lublin

@opi

The problem is with technologies.
If i wanted to write usb driver i would choose poseidon and os4 doesn't have poseidon. Nobody will use Reaction for amiportable software. os3, morphos and aros uses lowlevel.library for usb joypads, os4 uses amigainput. it would be good to have poseidon ported to os4 and reaction backported to amigaos3.9

Last edited by rzookol on 28-Jul-2010 at 01:50 PM.
Last edited by rzookol on 28-Jul-2010 at 01:48 PM.

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Rogue 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:48:24
#37 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@opi

Quote:
Good to see core developers don't follow the dream of "ein platform, ein community". It's impossible.


I said that as a person, not as a core developer of AmigaOS. But yeah, I don't believe in this, and it wouldn't even be necessary to reunite everything if the enmity between the camps wouldn't pollute the atmosphere so much that nobody is motivated to do anything anymore.

Third party developers can pick what they support. We all have to accept and respect that. Just because there is three "Amiga-like" systems doesn't mean you have to support them all. If someone wants to support MorphOS, so be it. Don't flame the guy because he picked that. People don't flame the author of, say, the game "Arma 2" just because they don't do a Mac version. You might ask them, politely, whether they would consider, but respect their choice.

If I decided to make Timberwolf for AmigaOS 4.x only, that is my choice too. No need to flame me.

Someone ported Blender to MorphOS but not to AmigaOS. Their choice. No need to flame them.

If these idiotic mud wrestling competitions would stop, things would start to look better. Eventually, there might even be cooperation on certain parts between the core developers, however, as it is now, the few vocal MorphOS trolls make me dislike and not even consider everything that is connected to MorphOS, and I am quite sure this goes the other way too.

To this date, no one ever asked me whether we would consider Timberwolf for MorphOS or AROS. They just flung more mud.

I don't have any delusion that this post or my other post will change anything. It won't. I bet there is a large number of people foaming over their keyboards right now when they read that, calling me all sort of things and proposing all sort of uncomfortable places where I can stick this post.

_________________
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Colin_Camper 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:49:10
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2003
Posts: 1188
From: Unknown

@opi

Quote:
We do live in soup opera. :-p


Absolutely! It is a soup opera!

A very thick and opaque Pea Soup Opera

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Hypex 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:50:15
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Colin_Camper

This:
Quote:
Bill and Fleecy buy assets of Amiga Tech from Gateway including sources for OS3.1 and free use of patents.


And then:
Quote:
Amiga doesn't bring any help whatsoever to the table (as we find out later not even the sources for AmigaOS).


Hang on, so did Amiga still had OS3.1 but didn't give it to Hyperion for developing? So who had the OS3.1 for OS4?

Quote:
Hyperion bring out OS4 much later than planned due to Amiga Inc not having sources for any version of AmigaOS.


Okay, so Amiga buy OS3.1, and now they don't have it. Who did they give it too?

Quote:
Amiga Snoq bring out OS3.9 (developed by H&P who hold on to the sources).


Who gave them the sources and when?

It wasn't in your history line.

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pavlor 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 13:53:45
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
Who gave them the sources and when?


Developers. I think Olaf Barthel had OS3.1 sources and some developers of OS3.5/3.9 participated on the OS4 project.

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