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      /  [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
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Poll : How should AW.net handle Commodore USA's Amigas?
Treat it as off-topic except in General Technology, Alt Amiga OS, & Free for all.
Create a new forum for Commodore USA Amigas.
Allow it to be discussed in Amiga general chat like any other Amiga (classic, AmigaOne etc).
Some other option (explain in a post).
 
PosterThread
Rob 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 8:32:14
#301 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@eniacfoa

Quote:
Your responses to my statements are completely out of context and therefore way off base.


It's annoying when that happens isn't it.

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sundown 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 8:55:52
#302 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5120
From: Right here...

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
I do not want to share your amiga tradition if by tradition you mean the last 15 years of utter failure that resulted in bringing amiga name and platform in a near-death situation.

I didn't ask you to share it, you either lived it or you didn't. I only asked that you respect the feeling of others who did.

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emeck 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 8:59:08
#303 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Apr-2003
Posts: 683
From: Barcelona, Spain

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
Amiga tradition of the old ended in 1994 when CBM went bust. After that, I fail to see any Amiga tradition and it was well on it's way out even before bankruptcy.


Wrong. That old tradition had continue with AOS4, AROS and MorphOS. If you don't like it, that is another thing.

Quote:
It just happens so that I think and believe x86 is the only way of bringing amiga name back where it belongs. Mainstream computers for individuals. If that is my crime, then so be it, I pledge guilty...

It is ok if you feel that way. There is AROS for those of us who want an x86 PC for the Amiga experience. But a PC with windows/ubunto while waiting for something Amiga from C=USA is not why we are here. Is that a crime?

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ChrisH 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 9:00:22
#304 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@all
It's strange how the C=USA CEO & some of their "fans" claim to want to be associated with the Amiga, while at the same time screaming F*** Y** (or words to that effect) at the past & present Amiga fanbase...:

WolfToTheMoon wrote Quote:
That's right... I do not want to share your amiga tradition if by tradition you mean the last 15 years of utter failure


I guess that's what you get from people only interesting in (mis)using the name, rather than respecting what the Amiga was (and still is)...:

Quote:
I think and believe x86 is the only way of bringing amiga name back where it belongs.

(the bold emphasis is mine)

EDIT: Wrongly wrote CTO, when I meant CEO. Sorry.

Last edited by ChrisH on 21-Oct-2010 at 09:39 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 21-Oct-2010 at 09:01 AM.

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Manu 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 9:10:49
#305 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

I jusy want to point out that in no way am I a fan of CUSA (If you thought so, I don't know)
but I see there could be good things coming out of CUSA if people stopped being so d**n negative all the time.

For example A-Eon could use their cases for their motherboard, SAM too (if CUSA can provide them remaind to be seen.) It's a long way to go for them after all. The PC64 project must succeed both production wise and market wise otherwise I would be surprised if they went ahead with their other plans.

Today I just see CUSA as someone who can make a replica C64 for C64 fans and I must say i am just as much fan of C64 as I am of Amiga. It's all good old memories for me.
Not saying I will buy a replica but I could be tempted. And yes it's a " just for fun" thing and I know I can emulate c64 non my AROS system too

Last edited by Manu on 21-Oct-2010 at 09:12 AM.

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Plaz 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 11:14:06
#306 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
I think and believe x86 is the only way of bringing amiga name back where it belongs.


For me that's not achieved soley by a shiny sticker on a wintel/linux box. If by "bringing back" you mean sales numbers of boxes named Amiga, you've a good chance of making that happen.

I'm fond of the Amiga name, but it's the AmigaOS (and it's it's variants) that's of far more interest. It would be nice afte all these troubled years to have the Amiga regain some sort of glory. This plan alone however would be a hollow victory.

One more thought for the business minded:
As you admit... since 1994 Amiga has failed and failed and failed yet again. So here I am, a potential PC customer in need of a new system. I'm looking at the line up of offerings and see Dell, Acer, IBM, Compaq, Alienware... on and on. And there sits an Amiga/x86. Hmm, which to buy... oh surely the obvious choice must be the one so well known for failure and backrupcy. Right.

Suddenly that mentioned $30 million advertising budget makes sense. How else to attempt to overcome that rep.


Plaz

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Plaz 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 11:22:13
#307 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@Manu

Quote:
I see there could be good things coming out of CUSA if people stopped being so d**n negative all the time.


I agree. But I'm struggling to find the positive side of C=USA's venture in to the classic based forums so far. The message to me at this point is is... "You've been a failure, and you're not very bight if you don't think Amiga stickers on wintel/linux boxes is a much better idea."

Plaz

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 11:34:17
#308 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@emeck

Quote:
Wrong. That old tradition had continue with AOS4, AROS and MorphOS. If you don't like it, that is another thing.


In my very humble opinion, those 3 OSes represent a pale shadow of once both a great community and OS. It's not that I wish to belittle the effort of people behind those projects, but the fact remains that neither of those projects achieved much in a sense of repeating the success of the original nor introduced a great deal of new things to attract new customers. I do think if it wasn't for the constant obsession of being backwards compatible with OS 3.1 we would be having a much bigger community now. I never understood that obsession and I think it has done a great, great deal of DAMAGE to the community and Amiga in general.

Many people left Amiga because they couldn't use their amigas as their main computer anymore. Me included. I continued to use both C64 and A500 as a source of retro fun, but soon replaced them with emulators as they were getting better and better and computers in general having more power. I do still own them.

A lot of people in this community have negative feelings towards C=USA's approach to Amiga. I ask you, why? Because, why would you want yet another PPC-AOS4-like project? OS4 had, what, 3-4 years to catch up and become popular, and it failed to do that. MorphOS had even more time, it failed too. AROS has only recently become useable to a broader audience but I doubt you'll be seeing much people flocking to it because it is, pretty much, the very same deal as the other 2 OSes which failed. Thus, chances of it becoming more popular are slim if it continues with OS 3.1 APIs even if it was THE OFFICIAL OS of the new Amiga.

the other thing... Notion that C=USA is in this for money. I mean, it's ridiculous. You want to tell me that Acube, Hyperion or A-eon are charities? That they are not in it, partly,for money. Take a look at Leo's(BigBenTheAussie) older posts before he started working for C=USA. He's been here since 2003. You tell me that that guy is not a proper Amiga enthusiast? Do you think he's in it solely for money?

I hate to break it to you, but we do live in a capitalistic system where pretty much everything is revolving around money. No money, no game. And since it is C=USA who is investing money, it is THEIR GAME. You can decide whether you'd like to watch it or not. Don't like the game? Switch to another channel.

I myself have absolutely nothing against them. It is evident that the PPC Amiga project failed in most regards. Instead of repeating old mistakes several times again, let's see if we can make something different. If it happens to be yet another mistake, so be it. Nobody on this board has anything lo lose, but only to gain.

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 21-Oct-2010 at 11:35 AM.

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Fransexy 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 11:40:06
#309 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
why would you want yet another PPC-AOS4-like project?


And what the hell you want another Wintel machine vendor ?


Quote:
et's see if we can make something different


what have of differente another standar PC running a standar operating sytem?

Last edited by Fransexy on 21-Oct-2010 at 11:40 AM.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 11:44:29
#310 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@Fransexy

Quote:
And what the hell you want another Wintel machine vendor ?


because Wintel wins and PPC-AOS lose?
I see that Apple has failed miserably after they went x86....


Quote:
what have of differente another standar PC running a standar operating sytem?


Wait another week or two and we will have more info on the Amiga line. From what little info I have I do not think it will be a bog standard operating system, nor do I think it will be a completely new OS but that is not possible at this stage. Something in between. Patience. If it fails, I'll be the first to critisize.

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Plaz 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 12:24:41
#311 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
I see that Apple has failed miserably after they went x86....


Apple ported their own OS to x86, they didn't just drop on an apple sticker on a Mac looking case. A significant difference to what's known of the C=USA plan so far.

Quote:
From what little info I have I do not think it will be a bog standard operating system, nor do I think it will be a completely new OS but that is not possible at this stage. Something in between


I would probably then call it good if some middle ground is reached, but we are a picky bunch. Time will tell I guess.

Plaz

Last edited by Plaz on 21-Oct-2010 at 12:28 PM.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 12:30:46
#312 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@Plaz

You mean they bought NeXT's x86 OS and reworked it into OS X?

Look, it is not possible to expect a completely new OS from a start-up. How much time it took Hyperion for them to do what is, by their own admission, a rewrite of much of the OS 3.1 code for PPC platform?

You cannot build a house from the roof down. You have to start with the foundations, a strong foundations at that, if you want more than 1 floor, and then build up.
If the business allows it in the future, a completely custom OS is always possible. Just don't expect it from the start, it is not realistic.

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 21-Oct-2010 at 12:31 PM.

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Plaz 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 12:54:19
#313 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@WolfToTheMoon

I definitely find your last several comments much more on par with the type of discussion we should be having. Guess we just had to get through 12-13 pages of other fluff first.

We understand as a startup (and especially a statup braving the name Amiga) C=USA must move carefully and conservitavely to succeed. It would be nice to see a new Amiga market. But for many in this hobby, if that market doesn't include the bits we always liked the most, there's little interest, and for some, contempt.

I think to at least some degree C=USA will succeed by banking on Amiga nastalia. Perhaps they will succeed a lot. What will they do with that success that might interest this merry band? If they can't say now, I totally understand. But if they can't say now, or never intended to embrace the classic in any way... back to my earlier question, why come now or at all? And especially with the attitude?

My suggested first contact.... "Hey guys, we're new in town and were going to be doing some new things. Some we're sure you'll like, some you won't, but give us a chance before you decide."

Plaz




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cha05e90 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 12:56:29
#314 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

If there will some day be a real buyable "chinese-x86-Amiga" from "CommodoreUSA" running some kind of Ubuntu, I'll expect that users will come here and telling all others (AmigaOS-, MorphOS- and AROS-users) how
- crap and inferior the OS' are and how
- crap and inferior their HW is.

Oh dear. It already had started without being a real product...


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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 13:06:12
#315 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@Plaz

Plaz, how about this? (just saw this posted over at a.org)

Intel Stellarton Atom + FPGA

Ok, so the Atom is not a powerful machine, but could this be of interest to some amigans? FPGA, be it this very model or some other, could be used to run a 68k hardware emulation and 68k OS, and the Atom could be, possibly, replaced by something a little bit more powerful in the future to run the new OS, whatever that may be.

I cannot see it as a massive mainstream product, but possibly something closer to how the more conservative amigans would like to see a new x86 Amiga. Maybe a A500x styled machine for retro fans with this...

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marko 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 13:11:06
#316 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Dec-2007
Posts: 1816
From: Gothenburg, THE front side of Sweden ;), (via Finland), EU

@WolfToTheMoon

Why use AmigaOS 4 in 2009?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx3q2wFIn6k

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C128, A500+, A1200, A1200/40, AmigaForever 2008+09+16, 5 x86/x64 boxes
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m4rko.com/AMIGA

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 13:53:27
#317 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@Plaz

Quote:
I think to at least some degree C=USA will succeed by banking on Amiga nastalia


I'll tell you what I did last night... I did a little primitive basic market research of these new x86 Amigas. I did something I never had done before... I read and joined some Apple forums

I joined 2 of the biggest apple community sites in my country. I figured, the closest thing to what Amiga was once to people wanting more individuality in computing today is Apple.
So I searched and read their forums. Before that, I had a look at some of the people writing articles for their portal(s). I was somewhat surprised to find out that much of the people writing those articles were ex amigans by their own admission.

Then I also read posts concerning Amiga. Much positive thoughts were written about amiga in Apple forums, some die-hard apple "fanboys" even admitting the only time they had more fun using a computer when compared to today's Apple products were - Amigas.

Here's the best deal. Those people left the amiga scene way, way before the flame wars and petty bickering, so they are not "poisoned" by this elitist approach to a specific Amiga(like) flavor. The other good thing is that they're marketing amiga name and brand in apple forums - for free, to apple users of today who have got no prior amiga experience. People that will not be bothered by issues that are bothering some amigans here.

Also, some members were not happy with Apple becoming more mainstream. They think it somewhat denotes Apple's brand image, "specialness" and makes it less appealing to them.

So I guess, with a right marketing campaign and with good products, a nice number of ex-amigans and new amigans coming from Apple products might be tempted to buy new amigas. I'm not saying that it would be a big number. Probably very, very small in the larger scheme of things(apple sells millions of computers afterall), but maybe enough to "get things going".

To people without specific knowledge of what was happening to Amiga in the last 15 years, Amiga is still cool, individual and so to say apple-like, but without apple's bad things of today, consumerism and their somewhat strange politics towards some issues.

Now, the only thing C=USA has to do is to ensure Amigas are cool enough for those posh Apple users to get interested in


well, those are my thoughts... feel free to add your opinion.

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 21-Oct-2010 at 01:54 PM.

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Plaz 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 14:06:15
#318 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@WolfToTheMoon

[quote]Plaz, how about this? (just saw this posted over at a.org)
Intel Stellarton Atom + FPGA
quote]

I think there are many workable options given time and money. Atom migth be one. The technoids amoung us will have to investigate. Are you familiar with the FPGA based MiniMig? How might that be leveraged in an x86 world? Ports to ARM, coldfire and even x86 have been discussed for AOS4, but would require resoruces.

I see two roads here (more actually). One where C=USA does their retro looking PC products and leaves AmigaOS/Classic behind. That's a practical choice for them really. Or they could try to do some kind of modern restoration on the old classic. More work, more money, more irratation, but possibly the most rewarding option if/when completed.

And we seem to be avoiding it mostly in this discussion, but ultimately many here are going to be interested in what Hyperion has to say and how C=USA might work with or against their efforts.

Plaz

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 14:08:09
#319 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

Also, to add some none-Apple oriented perspective...


there are many people in the x86 world that are always ready to pay things more because they look nice and are somewhat different to the rest of the x86 world. Good design and quality may be enough to interest some of those. Some of the ex amigans that are today PC users might be also tempted.
And some of those crowd who pathologically hate Apple products but secretly wants something more special come to mind also(also a plus to them might be that amiga was once considered a big rival to Apple ).

So yeah, market opportunities are there. I mean, if brands like MSI or Asus can sell branded x86 computers and make money, why not Commodore or Amiga. Naturally, both amiga and commodore brand must be played with their strengths and this is where I believe C=USA did the best job possibly when deciding to make these C64 and A500 replicas. You say commodore or amiga, most poeple would think of those. This makes it that much easier for C=USA to establish brand recognition which is VERY important.

Overall, I think they certainly have a good chance of reviving the brand, if they play it well. Remember, CBM had a lot more resources and a much bigger, established market, but they still managed to fail. So, nothing is sure, but hard work and good thinking can make anything possible.

Quote:
One where C=USA does their retro looking PC products


I think some of you misunderstood their intentions... Yes, they will play the retro game, but only with C64x and A500x. The rest of the products will have modern, contemporary design while playing on the brand's strength.

edit:typos/grammar

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 21-Oct-2010 at 02:15 PM.
Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 21-Oct-2010 at 02:11 PM.
Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 21-Oct-2010 at 02:09 PM.

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number6 
Re: [Poll] Commodore USA's Amigas and Amigaworld.net
Posted on 21-Oct-2010 14:10:33
#320 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@WolfToTheMoon

I don't think the apple connection is a mystery to anyone here.
After all Carl Sassenrath, who is attending Amiwest, dragged a good bit of Amiga influence over to Apple.
And, as he has stated publically, he still gets calls from lawyers to supply information concerning prior art as regards amiga technology.
This may be a bit off-topic, but I'm still curious, for my own education, to get an explanation of what went on in all the following lawsuits and who ended up with what rights. Perhaps you are familiar with all of this and can explain:

Amiga Development LLC v Hewlett-Packard Company

There seems to be a lot of publically undisclosed information.

#6

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