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      /  [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
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Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 Next Page )
Poll : What do you think we should do with CUSA posts?
Let them be all the time .... CUSA has Amiga name, I like it and other reasons
It should be discussed after the product is realised
It shouldn`t be promoted at all at AW.net
Every user that promotes it against other Amigas should get abuse points
 
PosterThread
Karlos 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 5-Feb-2011 20:54:32
#161 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2020
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

I'm not really sure what it is that CUSA thinks it can sell, at least to Amiga enthusiasts.

We've all heard the arguments about new OS4 hardware being priced as if it is made of solid gold (and to be fair, the detractors do have a point) or PPC, be it a Sam/X1000 running OS4 or a Mac running MOS being a dead end architecture. Again, a fair enough point.

However, what does CUSA actually have to offer? A PC you could build (probably to a better specification) yourself, in an admittedly nice-looking case you can already buy, running an OS you can obtain for free.

I don't see this being attractive to Amiga aficionados. And, to be frank, the idea of taking linux and running some crippled window manager (which is frankly how anything remotely Workbench-like would feel to anybody accustom to Gnome, KDE, xfce or even fvwm) is not going to appeal to Linux users either. And yes, that is my opinion as both a long-time Amiga and Linux user.

CUSA dropped the ball, that's if they ever even caught it to begin with, when they disregarded AROS. IMNSHO, another Linux distro just isn't going to attract any users since any Amiga users remotely interested in Linux more than likely already have it. Likewise, I doubt any Linux users are going to be won over for reasons given in the previous paragraph.

So, why the hostility? Just let them be. And if they manage to sell anything then fair play to them as they're obviously better at marketing than their predecessors.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll just get off my soap box.

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Hammer 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 5-Feb-2011 20:58:48
#162 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4270
From: Australia

@vox

Quote:

vox wrote:
@Hammer

Also, when you have mentioned TripOS (which was base of AmigaDOS), it rang my bell that M$ could be judged harshly and called "86 DOS based" or that Windows NT was actually developed by DEC hired by M$. Everything has history, but advances from that point. There would be no Linux if our dear programmer did not learned to work his SinclairQL.

What's wrong with VMS/OpenVMS in relation AmigaOS?

Torvalds wanted a free OS that uses 386/486 features. Above the Linux kernel, it uses GNU unix-like environment.

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Feb-2011 at 09:07 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Feb-2011 at 09:01 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 5-Feb-2011 21:14:04
#163 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4270
From: Australia

@Wizzard_o

Quote:

Wizzard_o wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
AmigaOS 1.0 (Kickstart+Workbench) doesn't natively run on PPC. PPC is not 68K .


x86 is not 68K or PPC, nor can it run any genuine Amiga OS, 68k and PPC can.
Find a better argument next time, or at least elaborate more on the point your trying to make (if there was one)

My post was designed for

The PC C= USA are re-badging has absolutely NOTHING to do with Genuine Amiga's (That's Computers capable of running Amiga OS1.x to Amiga OS4.x NATIVELY by the way...)

AmigaOS 4 includes a software 68K emulator i.e. 68K apps is not "native".

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Feb-2011 at 09:14 PM.

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vox 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 5-Feb-2011 21:17:50
#164 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
/me views poll results.

Wow, the angry mob has spoken.

As little as a I care about CUSA, the attitudes expressed in the poll is rather disappointing. Of course, the poll itself is heavily weighted, with three negative options and one positive one (and no neutral), but given that the lion's share of the vote is in the two most negative options I have to wonder why people are so pro-censorship. Preventing people discussing or even raving about it isn't going to make it go away.


First one is "all time boner", second one is also positive (yes, but once you have what to present), only third is negative. Forth is optional, its just against flamme wars

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Hammer 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 5-Feb-2011 21:21:31
#165 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4270
From: Australia

@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote:
@terminills
yes sure, try explaining them the cusa's stuff is a PC with a camouflaged gnome, while AOS4 is the direct PPC translation of what you describe in your signature as the last genuine AmigaOS (by the way 3.1 is another Hyperion exclusive).

Or should be a third party plastic case with a PC motherboard and a camouflaged gnome, at the moment all the have is a big pile of fluff...


Both SAM and X1000 follows X86 PC motherboard form factors, hence it is uses desktop PC cases.

My DELL Studio XPS 1645 laptop's motherboard doesn't follow to any standard X86 PC motherboard form factors i.e. 100 percent custom/non-standard.

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Feb-2011 at 09:27 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Feb-2011 at 09:23 PM.

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vox 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 5-Feb-2011 23:18:41
#166 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
So, why the hostility? Just let them be. And if they manage to sell anything then fair play to them as they're obviously better at marketing than their predecessors.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll just get off my soap box.


Well there would be no trouble, but they want to be the Iznogud
("Amiga instead of Amiga") and present them and their non existing
product as much Amigan as they can pretend to ... (Workbench, look,
with Amiga history ending with Commodore and again beginning with them).

Generally, they purchased both names to exercise retro exploit.
I don`t see much reason why anybody would get it, but they will compensate that
with huge desirable marketing and very little real info ...

- 200 Amiga Zealots here don`t want it (even ~50 are tolerant and might be interested in info about it, it still doesn`t mean they will buy it. Some of the CUSA fanboys might get it for merits freely)

- Amiga Classic lovers already use WinUAE, Amikit, Amithlon, AresOne ... there is more I am sure and don`t need CommodoOS5. Case they might be able to buy separately and then they can put their fav machine in it, or components they like it.

-Linux lovers don`t like modded Linux

-AROS users cant use AROS on it, or already can on their own PC

-Windows users don`t get Windows by default on it

-Beside case it has really nothing unique and even beside x64 Amiga cases don`t resemble coressponding Classic models at all

-I assume price will be higher than equal PC system. Tech lovers might get more numbers on their own

Other risks:

-Zillion of richer PC brands can get more exlusive product which will be boom

-Apple might realise some new Mac in 2011/2012 that would be competative since they use same cheap PC components now but good design, better OS feel then CommodoOS 11

Some users might be dissapointed even when they buy it:

- Well, those 30M people that used CBM 64 and Amiga are now grownups ...
and not all of them have so good rememberance of Commodore since they
failed to expand Amiga at its best

How good will be the Linuxbench, CommodoOS (I am sorry I cant say the magic words for it) compared to other Linux distro and Windows? People usualy buy the box, if you don`t supply Windows as standard they will judge you by Commodo.

- Some people might really expect something more by your glorious PR that hides reality, get dissapointed and never again buy your product, spread their experience. Same goes for magazines and many sites and persons that will judge it, not only the AW.net

-Use of Workbench, Kicstart and other files under this "if they don`t sue us its OK even we don`t have it on paper" might bring someone to sue company even if it goes well

- For the same reasons, even their Commodore x64 might not sell that well

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 5-Feb-2011 23:50:15
#167 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1770
From: Unknown

@vox
don't forget the sweet littile imica ; )
We are living in the "now" ... i can not understand why people are jumping on the cusa train (well there is no train yet and who knows if there will be one at all)

Should i make a press release?
"Fusion of ClusterUK and Ares Computers starting with a free liquidity of 30.000.000$ - oh wait sorry: Euros."
// crazy.

I still think that this is a last try by Amiga Inc. to melk the name. CUSA boys and girls are just puppets. - as told before i have seen the complete X-files series : D

On the other hand:
Workbench X is not done by CUSA so their is a chance that it will come.
Well i think it is ok to have a Linux looking like AmigaOS. If you are looking for this.

Than again.... this could be done by everyone...
Than again... why has no one made it already...

questions over questions...
Is it worth to discuss this .... day by day? Shouldn't we have fun with what we have?
Shouldn't we support those who are working to don't let the Amiga die.

Apple has shown what a system is all about.... it is not the Hardware it is the OS.
This means if you have no OS based "technological or ideological" it never will be a Mac or Amiga. If i install a Auqua Theme on WindowsXP do i get a Mac? No...

Strange world... really strange.

What is Amiga? Is it just a "name", a symbol, a sticker???

Nope.

This is my user POV.

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vox 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 0:40:47
#168 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@phoenixkonsole

Simply agree: they call us dead, while we living

They worship the name, we worship the feeling

Each and every true Amiga soft hard developer deserves support
in every way to keep the fire burning!

Very few operating systems left, to play like that is just easy game
but still they are not 100% winners as they believe. We cant stop them,
they can stop us even they pretend to be what we already are.

But in the end, those who cheat and lie deserve to fail.

_________________
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BCP 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 3:00:30
#169 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2003
Posts: 184
From: Indianapolis, IN USA

@vox

I really don't mind if what Commodore USA is saying or doing is discussed on AmigaWorld, but I do not want to see their products promoted or advertised here in any manner. Now if they were willing to pay Hyperion to port Amiga OS4 to a very narrowly defined x86 platform, that might be acceptable (maybe...).

Also, the threads here regarding Commodore USA do serve the purpose of informing the curious, that find AmigaWorld thru search engines, that CUSA's proposed products are not based on anything that is really Amiga related other than by name.

_________________
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AmigaOne X1000 & Amiga 4000

Amiga Response Crew Users Group
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Hammer 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 7:06:09
#170 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4270
From: Australia

@vox

Quote:

vox wrote:

...
- Amiga Classic lovers already use WinUAE, Amikit, Amithlon, AresOne ... there is more I am sure and don`t need CommodoOS5. Case they might be able to buy separately and then they can put their fav machine in it, or components they like it.

-Linux lovers don`t like modded Linux
...

On Linux comment, Google's Android OS/Chrome OS and MeeGo says Hi.

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Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 2080 Ti
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DAX 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 9:43:22
#171 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Karlos
Quote:
However, what does CUSA actually have to offer? A PC you could build (probably to a better specification) yourself, in an admittedly nice-looking case you can already buy, running an OS you can obtain for free. I don't see this being attractive to Amiga aficionados. And, to be frank, the idea of taking linux and running some crippled window manager (which is frankly how anything remotely Workbench-like would feel to anybody accustom to Gnome, KDE, xfce or even fvwm) is not going to appeal to Linux users either. And yes, that is my opinion as both a long-time Amiga and Linux user.


And to that end I would like to add: go figure how interested Windows7 or SnowLeopard users will be...

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DAX 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 10:21:08
#172 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@T-J

Quote:
Some sort of games console, then? Its just as well for us that Commode did go bust in '94, then. I suppose they might have stumbled on selling these games consoles for a while, before being destroyed by Sony or Nintendo eventually. But really, no AmigaOS + no exclusive games = no sales. That's just true in 2011 as in 1994, too.

We cannot pay such a high price for success as "total loss of identity" would be.
How delusional would it be for the Amiga community to boast success just because we sell face-lifted gnome installations?

This is like a soccer player that wants to be great: you can decide to train yourself and grow (ie:improve and evolve the OS) or secretly open David Beckam's locker, put a sticker with your name on his shirt and then enjoy the match on tv all satisfied that some unsuspecting TV watcher will mistake those assists for your own.

Gnome and other OSs have been available for years, Amiga on its part can only try to become a competent platform again, adding modern features such as SMP and advanced 3D (among many others) and sell to those that care for having an Amiga system instead of something else.
Buying that something else and believing you have an Amiga is simply wrong (when not plain dead ridiculous).

From a business stand point it would be misleading to end customers who think Amiga is back (it is, but not because of face lifted gnome distros) and from a fan point of view it's delusional at best.

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Troels 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 10:41:48
#173 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1995
From: Unknown

@Hammer
Quote:
On Linux comment, Google's Android OS/Chrome OS and MeeGo says Hi.


Irrelevant as these are not targeted at "linux lovers" but joe average. Again totally different platforms than what cusa is aiming at (exeption being ChromeOS, maybe..).

_________________

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linnar 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 11:06:22
#174 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

Respect each other's opinions!

My opinion is that the new Commodore is the true inheritor of the old Commodore Amiga and their is a straight continuation of the classic Amiga. Workbench5 is a natural continuation of OS3.9.
Everything else is the clones!
Therefore, I think the Commodore shall have their natural place here on the forum.
If any year, the majority of Amiga users use the Commodore Amiga anyway.

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vox 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 11:26:34
#175 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@Hammer

Quote:

-Linux lovers don`t like modded Linux
...

On Linux comment, Google's Android OS/Chrome OS and MeeGo says Hi.
[/quote]

My Android driven phone sais hallo, and he sais "I am built on Linux foundation, but I am not just modded Gnome, I am a real reworked OS and I am not 100% Linux compatibile at kernel, driver or X Windows level. Thus I am not Linux anymore". Same goes for OS X on Unix foundation and ChromeOS. Simply CommodoOS isn`t even that because they have 0 programmers. Like I and few my user friends customized a bit Windows 7, added our pack of software installed via possible Windows modders and call it "Windows Workbench 8". I even like such stuff, but its e.g. called Windows 7 Extreme edition but its mostly distributed by pirates.
It will not be a new Linux distro, neither original makers of distro are contracted to do the mod. So it`s for now "playing the game as having something new while not". Especially for OS this is too silly, but is at the same level as their hardware innovation.

Try something else in defense.

@damocles

There were no drives in the C64x, but the full mobo/keyboard (OMG is that keyboard expensive to make!) and case. Redrumloa should have pics of all c64x and Vics online this weekend. Pity we can't mention company names, the company in charge of designing the plastic C64x case is a very well known name in Amigaland.
[/quote]

OK, finally some real product pics not renders. This was (model) to be done first and NOW you could launch some more real campaign instead of folling people on how end product should look like. Same goes for AROS. When contracted and in progress. Or CommodoOS, even the name and features are decided, but it`s got a support forum. There must be some nasty name in English for this kind of marketing.

Glad you still have all those TOP SECRET stickers all over the development. That`s the way to do the mistery CPU PR. Next year we will learn who designed the keyboard. Get serious and I hope working prototype will be there soon, you need mass production for April launch?

Quote:

No, not sure why you are taking all this personally either. If you think Hyperion has the better product, by all means buy it and be happy. Simple isn't it?


Because you are trying to misslead general public you are the only Amiga out there
while being a simple licencee for a series of modded PCs. Even (ab)using same (real and dead) Commodore names for machines, and using Workbench name is missleading. If you create new products give them a new names. Commodore USA Amiga 2011 with free Linux distro. What is wrong with that?

Quote:
That's too bad for you, isn't it?


In reality, you will pay the price of false marketing, not me.
One way or another.

Quote:
You use whatever floats your boat. It's your money, you should be able to buy whatever you like that is for sale. Do you honestly think I give rat's rear end on what you buy and use? If you want to shell out that many EUROs for a A1X1K, more power to you! Buy ten units for all I care. I was once a PPC supporter during PIOS/Met@Box days when Haynie was crafting a quad PPC mobo. Till Jobs killed AIM alliance and the project was dumped. PPC had it's day, and today it's a sad tale of fail to evolve with the competition.


It`s not about my consumerism, I am happy with what I have, and am looking twice where I will be invest, what will I support. I am not TV shop shopper or commercial addict, its called "consciousnes buyer". I will buy more expensive product (like any PPC Amiga is) if I believe its understable why its expensive and deserved. No, I don`t have money for ten X1000, if I had that extra money (its an apartment) I would give it away to the ex Amigans to get the feel back

PPC is obsolete when compared to AMD/Intel R&D (and who isn`t?) but is not neither dead or unsuable as your troll claims. Its quite obvious what this kind of "We are Amiga Iznogud" campaign is leading to: I expect mass histeria of dumb Amigans (note: there are many educated, smart and good Americans, but I believe they will not "buy it" and buy it) who really believe you are new Amiga sometime at summer this year or next year. Just because you paid some well done commercial. Thanks for your mass education in best interest of CUSA / Amiga Inc!

@Karlos
Quote:

So, why the hostility? Just let them be. And if they manage to sell anything then fair play to them as they're obviously better at marketing than their predecessors.


Well, I am not sure about the last part. There wouldn`t be much resistance if campaign was fair so far, related to what they really have and do and in some at least neutral relationship with current Amiga community (cause they yet have no product neither real user community, just a cult of belief in upcoming products even beyond what they have promised for now)

@BCP

Quote:

I really don't mind if what Commodore USA is saying or doing is discussed on AmigaWorld, but I do not want to see their products promoted or advertised here in any manner. Now if they were willing to pay Hyperion to port Amiga OS4 to a very narrowly defined x86 platform, that might be acceptable (maybe...).

Also, the threads here regarding Commodore USA do serve the purpose of informing the curious, that find AmigaWorld thru search engines, that CUSA's proposed products are not based on anything that is really Amiga related other than by name.


So far, they claim Hyperion denided their offer, which remains unknown. On a long stick, they promise to do some kind of x86 AmigaOS in their forums and by their trolls (I assume based on advancement of their current CommodoOS project as they first mentioned it on their old website). Maybe if they would be extremely successfull all over the world from Croatia to Australia, USA and Germany, like they dream to, they could buy Hyperion and pay them to do it. But that is even on a longer stick.

About second part: if the people don`t get it from their website, once their product is out it will get Wiki page, with Criticism part too and real characteristics as well as we can always make www.cusaisnotamiga.com or similar. I would gladly pay for the domain while some of you could do the contents. These two pages with proper headers could be first ranked. You wouldn`t get AW.net either if you started to google CUSA and Amiga or Amiga.

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DAX 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 11:30:30
#176 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@linnar
OS3.9? The one where the Friedens brothers wrote the 3D part? The one where Olaf Bathel offered big help? The one based on OS3.1, an OS that was turned into 4.0 by the Friedens (and Barthel and other os3.9 developers such as Massimo Tantignone and Andrea Vallinotto for ex.)?
And the natural continuation for you would be this: LINK
Sorry but it cannot be respected.

It's not about opinions, it's about facts, and Cusa stuff has no amiga connection whatsoever.

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vox 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 11:32:09
#177 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote:
Respect each other's opinions!

My opinion is that the new Commodore is the true inheritor of the old Commodore Amiga and their is a straight continuation of the classic Amiga. Workbench5 is a natural continuation of OS3.9.
Everything else is the clones!
Therefore, I think the Commodore shall have their natural place here on the forum.
If any year, the majority of Amiga users use the Commodore Amiga anyway.



Joke of the year! First, they have ABSOLUTELY nothing with Commodore as we know it. They have nothing real with OS 3.9

And they do use what we used to call IBM PC clone back in 90s just a decade or two after.

In majority, none of the current Amiga users want or use CUSA PC.

For This kind of #### is reserved option No. 4

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 11:33:20
#178 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1327
From: CRO

@vox

Quote:
Maybe if they would be extremely successfull all over the world from Croatia to Australia, USA and Germany, like they dream to, they could buy Hyperion and pay them to do it. But that is even on a longer stick.


If you read Red's report on Amiga.org, they have no intention of buying Hyperion.

They do have a intention to, sometimes in the future, buy Amiga Inc and Commodore corp and unite them once again under the same banner.

This could get big

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DAX 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 11:46:44
#179 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@WolfToTheMoon
Quote:
This could get big

The problem is, the word big isn't a technology. IBM is Big. Microsoft is Big. Guess why we do not worship them?

Let me take away the mystery right away: because they have nothing to do with Amiga.

Cusa not only has nothing to do with Amiga, but they have nothing to do with Commodore as well.
Talk about it with Jack Tramiel and see what he thinks. He fought in a war and then went on to create Commodore out of sweat and blood. He bough a CPU engineering firm in order to bring down manufacturing costs and attain engineering freedom.
Buying logos won't convince people you are anything more than everyday stuff hidden behind colored images.
You must be the nth small step in a long line of small steps that took place during 25 years of handwork to be AmigaOS.
And you must develop your own custom computers to be Commodore.

I don't know if Cusa will ever get Big, but I'm not interested in "Big" (I already have many options to choose from in that regard), I am interested in Amiga.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: [Poll] Should CUSA posts and promotions be allowed at AW.net now and in the future?
Posted on 6-Feb-2011 11:49:34
#180 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1327
From: CRO

@DAX

Quote:
And you must develop your own custom computers to be Commodore.


they did that( C64x ), and will be doing it in the future.


Quote:
Cusa not only has nothing to do with Amiga, but they have nothing to do with Commodore as well. Talk about it with Jack Tramiel and see what he thinks. He fought in a war and then went on to create Commodore out of sweat and blood. He bough a CPU engineering firm in order to bring down manufacturing costs and attain engineering freedom.


I have great respect for Jack Tramiel.

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 06-Feb-2011 at 11:49 AM.

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