@BrianK
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If all who believe in the Elenin conspiracy crap stopped breathing would we consider that an Elenin caused extinction level event?

If I had to be strictly honest, my answer would be yes

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@BrianK

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Now that might be impressive for size as the smallest objects mass that is classified as a brown dwarf is 8x Jupiter.

You misunderstand completely. Most brown dwarfs are probably about the size of jupiter, You read about density. The least massy brown dwarf star found to date is 8x the mass of jupiter. Of course lower mass/volume brown dwarfs will be harder to spot.

Jupiter is a gas giant hence its relatively large size compared to its mass compared to a brown dwarf.

@MikeB

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You misunderstand completely. Most brown dwarfs are probably about the size of jupiter, You read about density. The least massy brown dwarf star found to date is 8x the mass of jupiter. Of course lower mass/volume brown dwarfs will be harder to spot.

Thanks for the blame here but I don't feel the problem is mine.

A Brown Dwarf is a object mass whose bigger than Jupiter but still unable to sustain fusion. Wikipedia is a good starting place for you.

A "Brown dwarfs occupy the mass range between that of large gas giant planets and the lowest-mass stars;this upper limit is between 75[1] and 80 Jupiter masses (MJ)." So while there is an upper limit for mass the lower limit is a bit more fuzzy. The smallest known and classified brown dwarf is 8x Jupiter's mass. It's name is Cha 110913- 773444 And as you can see in that article there is some debate if something 8x Jupiter might be too small to all a Brown Dwarf.

Sorry -- evidence shows by mass the 8x Jupiter is about the start of the classification and it runs up to the equivalent of 80 Jupiter masses.

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Of course lower mass/volume brown dwarfs will be harder to spot.

And most likely will be first classified as a Gas Giant.

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Apr-2011 at 05:22 PM.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: the smallest objects mass that is classified as a brown dwarf is 8x Jupiter

http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=14250
http://viewzone.com/browndwarfx.html

Last edited by Lou on 15-Apr-2011 at 05:25 PM.

@Lou

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http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=14250

Interesting. Though as we stand today such an existence is not confirmed nor is it easily classified. IF it exists we're bound to learn more and refine what we mean by planet or brown dwarf.

Now let's assume this 4x Jupiter Mass is in the Oort Cloud, as the article contends. The Oort Cloud is at least 2000 AU from the sun. Jupiter is roughly 5AU from the sun. Jupiter's gravity has no visually detectable effects on earth. The visually detectable gravity effects are tides and the moon. Clearly Jupiter doesn't have as much pull on the earth as the moon does. Thusly, Tyche has even less influence than Jupiter. Afterall it's 4x bigger but 400x further.

If people want to know the force compare Jupiter to earth and Tyche to earth compare (Mass of Jupiter/distance to earth squared) vs (Mass of Tyche/distance to earth squared). These are, of course, dervied from the known formula of F=Gm1m2/d^2.

Tyche, if it exists, certainly didn't cause Fukushma.

@BrianK



The approximate size of a brown dwarf (center) compared to Jupiter left) and the Sun (right). Although brown dwarfs are similar in size to Jupiter, they are much more dense and produce their own light whereas Jupiter shines with reflected light from the Sun. (Illustration: NASA/CXC/K.Arcand)

Source: http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_sources/browndwarf_fg.html

The diameter of "comet" Elenin's "Coma" is according to Leonid Elenin at least significantly larger than Saturn last week! It passing us closer than at least Venus' closest point to earth is a very significant event nomatter how much closer it may actually come, how much bigger and more massy it may be!

Last edited by MikeB on 15-Apr-2011 at 06:10 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 15-Apr-2011 at 05:56 PM.

@MikeB

Again Mike Brown Dwarfs are determined by mass. The article you linked to indicates Mass too. "The dividing line between planets and brown dwarfs occurs with objects that have masses below about 1 percent of the mass of the Sun, or 10 times the mass of Jupiter."

Why is size unimportant? (1) At least in this thread we were told the consipiracy was a brown dwarf was in alignment with the earth and caused an earthquake. The size doesn't mean anything in relation to this question. The way one object exerts force on another object is by gravity. That's a mass driven action. (2) As shown repeatedly the classification of a Brown Dwarf is dependant upon the mass of the object.

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The diameter of "comet" Elenin's "Coma" is according to Leonid Elenin at least significantly larger than Saturn last week

A comet is a snowball. The diameter of the comet is that measure of the snowball. The Coma is the vaporizing ex-parts of the comet. If the comet wasn't by a sun there would be no vaporization. As the comet flies away from the sun the coma shrinks as less energy from the sun is impacting the comet. It'll snuff out the flame and just be a flying snowball.

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It passing us closer than at least Venus' closest point to earth is a very significant event nomatter how much closer it may actually come, how much bigger and more massy it may be

It's cool because it may be closer to us than Venus and 'on fire' as it passes through our solar system. The pyromanics out there will see a very cool fire.

Significance would be an impact on earth. (Simplifying a bit)there's two options here either we hit the comet or part of the coma. Or the comet is massive enough to have a gravitational effect. The conspiracy nutters are telling us things that depend upon the graviational effect. GE has two variables - mass and distance. In the case of Elenin the combination of proximity and mass is insufficent to produce a gravitational effect on earth.

Coma size may be 'huge' on Elenin far smaller than the 2AU Great Comet. And the 'significance' of the Great Comet was the pretty streak of fire in the sky. There was 0 impact gravitationally. The data we have on Elenin, at present, indicates the same thing 0 impact.

Again - Elenin will be pretty to see in some binoculars. Life as we know it will continue unimpacted.

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Apr-2011 at 07:24 PM.

@BrianK

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A comet is a snowball.

Well officially, according to NASA guidelines, a comet has to be at least 85% ice in order to be considered an actual comet. Actual close inspection of Comet Borrelly showed no evidence of ice. It has a hot dry solid surface.

So the guideline is IMO a bad joke. How to determine this?

@BrianK

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Why is size unimportant?

Size, speed, direction, mass and compounds are all important.

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And the 'significance' of the Great Comet was the pretty streak of fire in the sky

Which great comet are you referring to? Which year?

@BrianK

Ah, they're clutching at the Tyche straw again. I think I've been over it twice before now, and you've just covered it, so there's no point me going over it again. The only thing I can be bothered to add is to point out that Tyche is being tested by NASA using the Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer, preliminary results from which are expected this month, apparently.

Personally, I hope it does exist, because if it does we'll have another 'is it a planet or isn't it' debate raging over the decades, with Tyche being swapped between 'Planet' and 'Brown Dwarf' every decade or so.

With Pluto being variously classified as a 'Planet' or 'Dwarf Planet' at different times, we'll have a solar system with 8, 9 or 10 planets, depending on who's winning which arguments and when. Fun!

@MikeB

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Which great comet are you referring to? Which year?

Many would suffice. The point is that the size of the comet really is completely irrelevant - its mass remains small, therefore its gravitational effect remains insignificant.

Comet Holmes is my favourite example of a comet with a huge coma, simply because it was briefly larger than the sun in terms of volume. This had no effect on anything, though, because a fraction of the mass of a small comet being spread out over a volume greater than that of the sun results in an extremely diffuse gas that is only just perceptible and certainly not dangerous.

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Well officially, according to NASA guidelines, a comet has to be at least 85% ice in order to be considered an actual comet. Actual close inspection of Comet Borrelly showed no evidence of ice. It has a hot dry solid surface. So the guideline is IMO a bad joke. How to determine this?

A bad joke? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Guidelines are only guidelines. Comets that have lost their ice to evaporation are known as extinct comets and are unremarkable. Also, it is not impossible to suppose that someone could have misidentified an asteroid as a comet.

@MikeB

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The diameter of "comet" Elenin's "Coma" is according to Leonid Elenin at least significantly larger than Saturn last week! It passing us closer than at least Venus' closest point to earth is a very significant event nomatter how much closer it may actually come, how much bigger and more massy it may be!

In the outer part of its orbit, a comet has no tail. The tail, or coma is formed as the comet moves closer to the sun, and always points away from the sun. As the coma gets larger, the total mass of the comet (nucleus + coma) remains the same. No matter how large the coma becomes the mass does not increase. It just becomes more diffuse.

@Lou

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http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=14250

This link reports on an article by the Daily Mail. This is a tabloid "news"paper that will regurgitate the same information that has already been quoted, with a slant to suit its own agenda.
I suspect that the Daily Mail is afraid that this will bring in more immigrants to take our jobs, live off our state benefits, etc.

Last edited by Nimrod on 15-Apr-2011 at 08:37 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 15-Apr-2011 at 08:36 PM.

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Aww man, when will this God forsaken planet give us a break? I remember the devistation it caused during it's last pass 3600 years, back in 2010. The floods, the earthquakes, the volcanic eruptions, the tsunami's, the fire raining from the sky. To this day I have no idea how we survived. Not to mention the even more devastating pass 7200 years ago, in 2009. And who could forget the pass 10,800 years ago, in 2008? Not to mention the previous 2 or 3 passes prior to these most recent passes. It leaves civilization in ruins on each and every gawd darned pass and only serves to highlight to me just how freakin old I am to have remembered each of these passes so vividly. Oh all the horrific things I have seen! ;-/

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@MikeB

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So the guideline is IMO a bad joke. How to determine this?

Classifications of objects are just that. There's nothing that dictates what a comet is except for consensus of scientific usage. This will/may be redefined as we learn more science about our universe. For a similar example see the fights over Pluto.

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Quote: Why is size unimportant? Size, speed, direction, mass and compounds are all important.

First, let's not forget the concern. That concern from the conspiracy was the effect on earth. Newton's law of gravitational force is G*Mass of the first body * Mass of the 2nd body / distance squared.

So in reference to effects on the planet (eg gravity). Size - unimportant. Compounds - unimportant. Direction, a side factor to help determine 'distance squared'. As is speed. Neither is important unless combined they indicate 'distance squared' is zero. And that's not the case. Look at the formula the force of gravity from any object is determined by masses of the two bodies and the distance between them. (And of course Big-G which is the universal constant and may be different in different universe. (OMFSM I'm sure that'll be a mess.))

EDIT: Oh and as for the Brown Dwarf producing it's own light... Perhaps Tyche is not a Brown Dwarf as the link Lou posted says the temperature is likely about -40 Kelvin.? Perhaps it's an ex-Brown Dwarf that has ran out of it's fuel. Apparently there's no light there detected.: End Edit

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Which great comet are you referring to? Which year?

I've posted this in earlier posts but I'll do it again. Check out the Great Comet of 1843. You're worried about this tail that's 80K km but pales to the 300,00K km (over 2AU) tail of that puppy. Besides a pretty light show during the day the Great Comet had 0 effect on earth.

The point should be a clear illustration for you. The size of the tail (Coma) doesn't matter. It's distance and mass that counts.



@T-J
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Ah, they're clutching at the Tyche straw again. I think I've been over it twice before now, and you've just covered it, so there's no point me going over it again.

I probably should have paid attention to earlier to this. It'd be cool if Tyche exists. Using their own data from the linked article the estimates (4 Jupiter masses at 40x the distance) it's gravitational impact is basically non-existent. For comparison sake when a baby is born the Doctor's gravitational pull is larger than these #s for Tyche.

Last edited by BrianK on 16-Apr-2011 at 03:41 AM.
Last edited by BrianK on 15-Apr-2011 at 10:28 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 15-Apr-2011 at 10:28 PM.

@Nimrod

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Comet Holmes

Comet Holmes comes no closer than about 2 AU to earth. If the outburst (to a size larger than the sun) would have happened at 0.24 AU - 40,000 km from earth it would have been most spectacular.

@BrianK

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I've posted this in earlier posts but I'll do it again. Check out the Great Comet of 1843. You're worried about this tail that's 80K km but pales to the 300,00K km (over 2AU) tail of that puppy.

No tail was visible in the provided image.

The great comet of 1843 did not pass the earth as close as comet ELEnin will. Elenin will pass the earth multiple times closer.

It was an amazing comet though, , more than 60 times brighter than the full moon.

Last edited by MikeB on 16-Apr-2011 at 09:55 AM.

@BrianK

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Again Mike Brown Dwarfs are determined by mass.

Scientists have great difficulty estimating the mass of comets and their compounds. And with regard to brown dwarfs: "It has puzzled us; we're not sure where to draw the boundary between planets and brown dwarfs".

I have said nothing about the mass of ELEnin as we don't really know at this point. So I don't understand your comment in relation to anything I said.

The only thing: "Brown dwarfs are all about the same radius; so anything that size with over 10 Jupiter masses is unlikely to be a planet."

Even that doesn't sound too definite or does it?

@MikeB

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Scientists have great difficulty estimating the mass of comets and their compounds. And with regard to brown dwarfs: "It has puzzled us; we're not sure where to draw the boundary between planets and brown dwarfs".

I somehow doubt that astronomers cannot differentiate between a comet and a brown dwarf.

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@Nimrod

When Uranus was first discovered it was thought to be a comet instead of a planet. As it did not move closer to the sun, it was later discovered to be a planet orbiting the sun.

A brown dwarf star or even a Jupiter-like planet coming close to its primary star may well develop a coma and tail just like a comet.

Optically it may be hard to distinguish between a brown dwarf star / Jupiter-like planet and a large comet.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: When Uranus was first discovered the French still had a king

Really how lame can one get ?

If there was an object with a mass bigger than Jupiter so close to earth it would be easily be spotted.

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