@MikeB

Dunno if I posted this on AW already but you might be interested in a video by the now departed Ian Lungold

http://www.mygenie.tv/blog/index.php/2008/12/the-mayan-calendar-amazing-video-lecture-by-ian-xel-lungold/

It should be remembered that the only reason the Mayans (who still exist) is quoted so much is that they are the "newest - old civilisation" (apart from us) and thusly, left the best tracks.

Video is long but bloody interesting.

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@MikeB

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Yes, massive storms should be expected in such an event, but may not be directly linked by humans at the time to a temporary rotation stoppage. The length of days after such an event (I mean after passage) may also need to be recalibrated (days may last longer/shorter).

If I lived in an agricultural society and had just watched my cow whisked off by a 600 mph breeze, I think I would be too busy to notice that the sun had just stood still in the sky. Especially considering the minor detail that the cow was in the barn at the time. By the way, did I mention the fact that the barn is actually the lower floor of the house in many early agricultural societies?

Agricultural communities a recently as fifty years ago did not heavily use artificial light. (Cue claims of ooparts, antediluvian electric lamps etc) Any jobs not finished by sundown didn't get finished. Also the number of these new length days in a year would change.
This would have been noticed, and reported even more than the event that you are referring to.

Last edited by Nimrod on 18-Apr-2011 at 05:58 PM.

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@BrianK

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And for China - interesting sounds to me like a volcanic event.

An alternative Nibiru theory.

As I stated a Jupiter-like planet or Brown Dwarf star can act like a comet when it approaches the sun. A tail will develop due to solar winds blowing its atmosphere into space. As the earth and/or mars passes through its tail very fine dust may enter the atmosphere.

The red color is due to rusting iron minerals. Water will be a bit more alkaline if the compounds are similar as on mars.

@The_Editor

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It should be remembered that the only reason the Mayans (who still exist) is quoted so much is that they are the "newest - old civilisation" (apart from us) and thusly, left the best tracks.

The mayan common culture/history can also be expanded with the olmec civilization. Maybe similar as sumer/babylonia.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Apr-2011 at 07:07 PM.

@MikeB

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Yes, massive storms should be expected in such an event, but may not be directly linked by humans at the time to a temporary rotation stoppage.

Massive isn't the word for it. This is nearly double the fastest recorded winds ever. 1600BC Construction, trees, people and other life along with small hills would be leveled. There is no record or physical evidence of the stopping of the planet.

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The length of days after such an event (I mean after passage) may also need to be recalibrated

Didn't you claim a stoppage of the earth wouldn't be noticed? Isn't this a noticing?

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An alternative Nibiru theory. As I stated a Jupiter-like planet or Brown Dwarf star can act like a comet when it approaches the sun. A tail will develop due to solar winds blowing its atmosphere into space. As the earth and/or mars passes through its tail very fine dust may enter the atmosphere.

A hypothesis that AFAIK is unsupported. We haven't found rust particles from an extra-earth body that are nearly 4K years old in that amount. A comet's tail isn't dense. Most of the material is going to burn up in the atmosphere. We'd call those particles 'meteors'. In 1910 the earth flew through Halley's Comet's tail. There were some pretty streaks of light in the sky.. No biggie.

EDIT: When you layer maybe on top of maybe these events are seemingly more ridiculous. This all smells of special pleading : End EDIT

Last edited by BrianK on 18-Apr-2011 at 06:33 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 18-Apr-2011 at 06:24 PM.

@Nimrod

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Now that we're talking about volcanoes, I'm surprised that the nibiru theorists haven't claimed this one yet. After all it has been claimed before

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@BrianK

If the rotation stoppage happened, it was obviously a worldwide event.

Although the author of a well read book came to wrong conclusions his collection of proof is interesting (Note that although his theory was wrong, he fares well in proving such an event actually took place at all).

From the New World: "In the Mexican annals it is stated that the world was deprived of light and the sun did not reappear for a fourfold night." "Sahagun, the Spanish savant who came to America a generation after Columbus and gathered the traditions of the aborigines, wrote that at the time of one cosmic catastrophe the sun rose only a little way over the horizon and remained there without moving; the moon also stood still." [Worlds in Collision, p.62]

"In the manuscripts of Avila and Molina, who collected the traditions of the Indians of the New World, it is related that the sun did not appear for five days, a cosmic collision of stars preceded the cataclysm; people and animals tried to escape to mountain caves. 'Scarcely had they reached there, when the sea, breaking out of bounds following a terrifying shock, began the rise of the pacific coast. But as the sea rose, filling the valleys and the plains around, the mountain of Ancasmarca rose too, like a ship on the waves. During the five days that this cataclysm lasted, the sun did not show its face and the earth remained in darkness.'" [Worlds in Collision, p.76]

From China: "At the time of the miracle is said to have happened that the sun during a span of ten days did not set, the forests were ignited, and a multitude of abominable vermin was brought forth.'In the lifetime of Yao [Yahou] the sun did not set for full ten days and the entire land was flooded.'" [Worlds in Collision, p.114] "Thereupon Yaou [Yahou] commanded Hi and Ho, in reverent accordance with the wide heavens, to calculate and delineate the movements and the appearances of the sun, the moon, the stars, and the zodiacal spaces; and to deliver respectfully the seasons to the people." [Worlds in Collision, p.116]

"Pomponius Mela, a Latin author of the first century. wrote: 'The Egyptians pride themselves on being the most ancient people in the world. In their authentic annals . . . one may read that since they have been in existence, the course of the stars has changed direction four times, and the sun has set twice in the part of the sky where it rises today.'" [Worlds in Collision, p.119]

@MikeB

So the Earth ceased its rotation for four days while the moon also stopped orbiting,but did not fall into the Earth[Worlds in Collision, p.62]. It also stopped for five days, accompanied by huge tsunamis and tectonic uplifts of epic proportions[Worlds in Collision, p.76]. Also ten days accompanied by more tsunamis and forest fires[Worlds in Collision, p.116], while at the same time going into reverse for two days.[Worlds in Collision, p.119]
In summary a large piece of Jupiter declares independence, defies gravity and leaps off into space changing the earths orbit and axis in passing. It then straightens things up restarts the spin, and settles down into a stable orbit.
You do know that Immanuel Velikovsky is one of the few people with less scientific credibility than Von Daniken, don't you?

Following BrianK's frequent exhortation to do the math, I assumed the assertion of a global stop and restart was correct, and calculated the force necessary to achieve this.
The numbers were quite large for a meteor strike, (two hits actually, one to stop, one to start) but this left huge craters and a major extinction event wiping out all life larger than a rabbit. I then calculated the force required for a passing object to achieve the preferred result without an actual impact. This would produce the tectonic effects described and a tsunami of sorts, as it piled up all of the worlds oceans into one spot. It could not produce the winds that BrianK said would be produced by the simple expedient of stripping away the atmosphere. No air, no wind. (Simples. as the T.V. ad would say).
I then asked a geologist if there was any evidence of the Pacific climbing over America , into the Atlantic recently*, or the total loss of the atmosphere. He hasn't answered yet for some reason.

*To a geologist 3600 years ago is modern

Last edited by Nimrod on 18-Apr-2011 at 09:34 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 18-Apr-2011 at 09:34 PM.

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@MikeB

[quote[Although the author of a well read book came to wrong conclusions his collection of proof is interesting (Note that although his theory was wrong, he fares well in proving such an event actually took place at all).[/quote] Literary Terms are probably as old as humans ourselves.

Didn't you post that Greek knowledge was based upon cultures before it and possibly the Mayans? Why not the myths or religions built upon the same? In such this proof isn't independent, as would be necessary for proof, but highly dependent.

We know Christianity was built upon the religions it replaced. Else we would see the holy day of the week as Saturday not Sunday, for one example. Other religions have done similar things. People are exposted to cultures other than their own say hey that's cool and next thing you know Justin Beiber is a pop idol.

So why the 'wrong conclusions' -- The reason is pretty frickin' huge. He assumed that stories to explain unknowns were somehow historically accurate retellings. As such there's no proof in any of the myths you quoted.

Last edited by BrianK on 18-Apr-2011 at 10:35 PM.

@Nimrod

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So the Earth ceased its rotation for four days while the moon also stopped orbiting,but did not fall into the Earth

Of course the moon won't fall into the earth due to rotation stoppage / orbit halt. The earth/moon are both experiencing attraction as well as repulsion from each other. The only way for the large solid moon to hit the earth would be if other forces being greater than this repulsion are at play. For example as for some reason the moon is moving at great speed towards the earth (the repulsive for not being big enough to bent the object away from its path, for example it is impacted itself by an enormous object). Or for example a Nibiru moon is dragged along at great speed which poses an overwhelming force on the object.

Assuming Nibiru exists it's very unlikely that Nibiru will destroy the earth when it passes. If it exists it has passed the earth so very many times already. But it will change the world as you know it today on so many levels.

NASA recently claimed to have found an object which is orbiting the sun in the same line as the earth and has been doing so for thousands of years while on collision course with earth. Apparently its movement speed is not enough for a true collision to happen.

Note not only is the moon repulsed away from the earth, it's actually vice versa in space.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Apr-2011 at 10:58 PM.

@MikeB

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Or for example a Nibiru moon is dragged along at great speed

Unsupported logical fallacy of special pleading.

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NASA recently claimed to have found an object which is orbiting the sun in the same line as the earth and has been doing so for thousands of years while on collision course with earth. Apparently its movement speed is not enough for a true collision to happen.

Poppycock! Provide what you believe to be this at a link at NASA's website. Else this is unsupported woo-woo if not a bold faced lie.

Last edited by BrianK on 19-Apr-2011 at 12:11 AM.

@MikeB

You're quoting Velikovsky? Its already been addressed, but I'd just like to add my input:

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Of course the moon won't fall into the earth due to rotation stoppage / orbit halt. The earth/moon are both experiencing attraction as well as repulsion from each other. The only way for the large solid moon to hit the earth would be if other forces being greater than this repulsion are at play.

What repulsive force? I honestly don't know what you're on about. You can generate repulsion with magnets, but the moon hasn't had a geodynamic magnetic field in billions of years, if ever. So that's not it.

No, the only reason I can think of for why the Moon hasn't crashed into the Earth yet is because its moving so fast. Halt the moon's orbit (this wouldn't be possible even with 'Nibiru', but still...) and there's nothing to stop it from simply... falling in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_cannonball

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Assuming Nibiru exists...

I'm sorry, have we not just spent several pages of this thread demonstrating that it does not?

I think we have. Using physics as we understand it, Nibiru cannot exist. It is therefore now the job of the Nibirists to propose a new physics that is equal to or better than the current physics for describing the real Universe, and at the same time allows Nibiru to exist. I look forward to your publication in peer-reviewed journals.

@The_Editor

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The_Editor wrote: @MikeB Dunno if I posted this on AW already but you might be interested in a video by the now departed Ian Lungold http://www.mygenie.tv/blog/index.php/2008/12/the-mayan-calendar-amazing-video-lecture-by-ian-xel-lungold/ It should be remembered that the only reason the Mayans (who still exist) is quoted so much is that they are the "newest - old civilisation" (apart from us) and thusly, left the best tracks. Video is long but bloody interesting.

Another educated man stating the Oct 28, 2011 date.
2012 is a diversion.

@The_Editor

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Video is long but bloody interesting.

Trying to watch and about 10 minutes in he talks about Vancouver having a consciousness different than Whitehorse. Which is bunk as a place has no consciousness. And in conflict to the 'agreement' (around 3:45) that 'consciousness is the awareness of being aware' that he stated is the definition of what he'd be talking about. By that definition the City of Vancouver isn't conscious as it's not only not aware of it's awareness it's simply not aware of anything. Though the idea makes good fiction

@BrianK

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Poppycock! Provide what you believe to be this at a link at NASA's website. Else this is unsupported woo-woo if not a bold faced lie.

The alledged asteroid discovered by NASA:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42475565/ns/technology_and_science-space/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_SO16 (with link to NASA)

A video about its orbit from a lady:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPp9hzCbowc

@T-J

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there's nothing to stop it from simply... falling in.

Yes there is. You seem to think the moon acts like a bolder in a sling spinning here on earth. But the conditions are entirely different in outer space for large seperate bodies.

@BrianK

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Trying to watch and about 10 minutes in he talks about Vancouver having a consciousness different than Whitehorse.

You misunderstand. He was trying to explain that under different circumstances awereness/consciousness is different.

Your consiousness will be different when climbing a mountain in the alps compared to when you're walking through traffic in poluted/crowded Tehran.

Despite a few insignificant inaccuraties IMO his lecture is worth listening to. His basic message in the end is that things will improve for the better for the long run, but for the short run there will be disaster.

Last edited by MikeB on 19-Apr-2011 at 08:54 AM.

@MikeB
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The alledged asteroid discovered by NASA:

Reading your first link I noticed the paragraph below.
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The space rock, called asteroid 2010 SO16, has been following Earth as our planet orbits the sun for at least 250,000 years and is up to 1,312 feet wide, scientists said. It was initially spotted by NASA's WISE infrared space observatory.

At 400 metres wide it is not exactly very large. You allege that this object has sufficient mass to influence the orbit of the Earth. Just how dense do you think this rock is?

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A video about its orbit from a lady: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPp9hzCbowc

Since you linked to this, I assume that you agree with its findings. An interesting correlation between the "turning point" and the fall of the Mayan civilisation to the conquistadores.
Just a few more events that have exactly as much relevance in the cause and effect sequence.

April 5 – Karl XII becomes king of Sweden upon the death of his father, Karl XI. Karl XII is known as the "Swedish Meteor".
May 7 – The royal castle "Tre Kronor" ("Three Crowns") in Stockholm burns to the ground. A large portion of the royal library is destroyed.
June 30 – The earliest known first-class cricket match took place in Sussex.
September 11 – Battle of Zenta – Prince Eugene of Savoy crushes the Ottoman army of Mustafa II and effectively ends Turkish hopes of recovering lost ground in Hungary.

Please try to differentiate between astronomy, and astrology

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@Nimrod

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At 400 metres wide it is not exactly very large. You allege that this object has sufficient mass to influence the orbit of the Earth. Just how dense do you think this rock is?

You misunderstand my comments completely. This quote may help you to understand my comments better:

Archimedes: "Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the Earth".

The repulsion goes both ways. Of course in this case one is a very small slow moving object, the other is enormous. In the same light also view my earlier comments regarding everything orbiting each other.

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Since you linked to this, I assume that you agree with its findings.

No, I even consider the possibility "comet" ELEnin and this space rock as both reported by NASA do not exist at all. I also consider the possiblity the data provided by amateur astronomer "Leonid Elenin" is fake. But I don't know.

It's all meant as food for thought.

@MikeB

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The repulsion goes both ways.

There is no repulsive force. Asteroid 2010 SO16 orbits the sun in an orbit that averages 1AU.
When its orbit is less than 1AU it travels slightly faster than the Earth, and after 175 years it is almost ready to lap us. At this point gravitational attraction accelerates it into a higher, and therefore slower orbit in accordance with Keplers third law. It now travels slightly slower until the Earth is almost ready to lap asteroid 2010 SO16. Gravitational attraction accelerates it into a lower, and therefore faster orbit. You will notice that both changes in orbital velocity are due to attraction, there is no requirement for a repulsive force.

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@T-J Quote: there's nothing to stop it from simply... falling in. Yes there is. You seem to think the moon acts like a bolder in a sling spinning here on earth. But the conditions are entirely different in outer space for large seperate bodies.

In order to prevent an Earth/Moon collision while locking positions the object would need to be sufficiently massive to generate a Lagrange point at exactly the correct point, and hold it for four days before moving off in such a way as to restart spin and orbit rates sufficiently close to the originals to prevent undue comment. This would be an even more massive object than I already calculated and would have done a bit more damage than merely stripping off the atmosphere.

Incidentally my tame geologist got his breath back and said no.

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