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Poll : What do you think?
Plain simple paranoid BS
Interesting reading, still BS
Largely BS as Nibiru isn't nearby at this point
I'm open minded, could be true... But I'm sceptical
I think there's much truth in this
I'm convinced Nibiru/Planet X is looming nearby
Interesting gotta do some research
 
PosterThread
BrianK 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 13:35:50
#581 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@MikeB

Quote:
Scientists do not yet know how far the heliosphere goes, but I predict it will at some point be discovered it expands all the way to other stellar systems. The sun has a north and south pole just like the planets which circle around it, the planets are aligned in accordance of this polarity (based on just the theory of universal gravity the earth could just as well orbit above the Sun's north pole or south pole, but this is not the case).

Being open I accept your conjecture that planets are aligned in accordance of polarity.

I then check it with factual evidence and find that it's not supported. Uranus's magnetic dipole is off center. It's hypothesised the core doesn't create it but a salt ocean. North is at the bottom and solar winds are prendicular in alignment to the magnetic field. Not the same as Earth or Jupiter. Mars is another example. It has no dipole. Like the moon there are magnetized patched. The hypothesis here is a once liquid magnetic core was magnetic but has cooled and lost it's magnetism. One last example is Venus that has no magnetic field of it's own but is induced by solar winds interaction with the ionisphere.

Further holding of such an idea as true would be dishonest.

I had assumed that open and honesty would go both directions. I want to be sure this is how you're approaching this?

If honest you have many directions to learn of this and can demostrate for yourself your conjectures of magnetism are incongruent and unpredictable compared the the actual orbit of the planets. Is gravity 'wrong'? Perhaps but it's clearly more accurate in so far is a better predictor than the 'it's all magnets' theory.

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Lou 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 14:11:02
#582 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_gravity

So it seems the word is still out on gravity.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 14:32:18
#583 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@Lou

That article refers to the hypothesis that gravity is an entropic force rather than a particle interaction.

The other hypothesis is that gravity is 'transmitted' by a mediating particle that we have yet to discover, ie a 'graviton'.

Right now, the jury's still out on both of them. But if we can't find gravitons or find some solid proof to infer their existence from, the entropic force idea provides an alternative avenue of investigation to help us figure out exactly how gravity is transmitted.

But take note - this debate is about how gravity is transmitted. If you really wanted to look clever, you should have linked to the wikipedia articles regarding the assorted attempts to unify General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics. That's the bleeding edge of physics and one day the solution to that problem will make the General Relativity look as outdated as Newton's Laws of Motion do now.

And I can guarantee you one thing - MikeB won't be hailed as the visionary who came up with it, because he won't do the maths.

Last edited by T-J on 24-Apr-2011 at 02:50 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 14:33:14
#584 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_gravity

So it seems the word is still out on gravity.
Interesting. And even more it's confirmed F=Gm1m2/d^2 what we've been asking the 'it's all magnetic' crowd to be doing for about 1/2 the thread.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 18:47:22
#585 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@Nimrod

Quote:
If it was all due to magnets wouldn't the planetary poles all line up with the sun?


No, planet are not like tiny bar magnets. They are kept in place like this:
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/videogallery/index.html?collection_id=14658&media_id=82280481 (Thus can't suddenly crash into the sun)

The same goes for Saturn's ring. Maybe I should say rings, in inner part of the ring is cleared by Saturn's gravity and you see multiple rings due to bigger bodies such as moons clearing the orbits at different parts of the ring.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 19:13:36
#586 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@Nimrod

The sun is a big magnet which fully rotates every 26.24 days (all the planet move around it much slower). The force of this huge magnet rotation grows weaker further away from the object, but this is what keeps the planets (smaller magnets) in motion. Would the sun's rotation slow down, the planets will gradually slow down in their orbits as well (but not crash into the sun due to repulsion).

Quote:
I accept the fact that the magnetic pole is not the same as the axial pole, but wouldn't that make things even worse under a magnetically operated universe?


Scientists haven't found an answer to why the planets are tilted. Possibly because they are looking at such interesting facts wrongly. Possibly they would find an answer to many of such questions when simulating the magnetic interactions (of moons, planets and stars) of repulsion/attraction (as well as gravity!). IMO scientist will never find the true answer to many of their questions when only looking at universal gravity.

Last edited by MikeB on 24-Apr-2011 at 07:15 PM.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 19:31:58
#587 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
No, planet are not like tiny bar magnets. They are kept in place like this: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/videogallery/index.html?collection_id=14658&media_id=82280481


The planets with geomagnetic fields form magnetic dipoles. Translation: They are like gigantic bar magnets. We can observe this directly. Feel free to deny the evidence, but you'll be wandering into the realms of blind faith again if you do.

And now, the repeated misuse of that NASA video: That video shows how Saturn's and Enceladus' magnetic fields interact. That magnetic interaction has absolutely stuff-all to do with why Enceladus orbits Saturn, or why it moves at the speed it does, or anything.

If that magnetic field interaction did explain Enceladus' orbit, which it doesn't, but if it did, how then do all of Saturn's other moons stay up? Because they lack magnetic fields. How does Venus stay where it is, with a magnetic field 500 times weaker than the Earth's? The list goes on, Uranus, Mercury, Pluto, you can't explain any of their abnormalities with your magnetism idea, so your theory is bunk.

Quote:
but not crash into the sun due to repulsion


Ah, a magical mystery force that we can't detect or experience in any way. Look, if there were a magical stellar repulsion force such as the one needed to make your crazy idea work, it would be powerful enough to totally screw up all our interplanetary probe and satellite missions. Because we calculated and planned them based on the Theory of Gravity. But lo! The satellites go where they're supposed to!

Quote:
Scientists haven't found an answer to why the planets are tilted. Possibly because they are looking at such interesting facts wrongly. Possibly they would find an answer to many of such questions when simulating the magnetic interactions (of moons, planets and stars) of repulsion/attraction (as well as gravity!). IMO scientist will never find the true answer to many of their questions when only looking at universal gravity.


I'm just going to answer all of that in one go:

Yes we have. No, we're not. Believe it or not, we have actually simulated magnetism as well, and that's how we know your magnets theory is bunk. Strepulsion is also bunk. And finally: You think? Perhaps that's why we've been busily working away at Quantum physics and trying to figure out a unified theory combining Quantum with Relativity since Einstein's time.

Go and do some maths that demonstrates your magnets theory working, and then we can discuss it. Until you do that, all you're doing is making yourself look silly quoting peoples' parodies of Creationism as your scientific source.

Last edited by T-J on 24-Apr-2011 at 07:34 PM.
Last edited by T-J on 24-Apr-2011 at 07:32 PM.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 20:06:53
#588 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@T-J

Quote:
They are like gigantic bar magnets


The bar magnet is a simplification. For example the poles here on earth can shift, that's one clear indication the earth is not like a bar magnet. Actually it's likely we have a stronger north pole and south pole due to the sun being a big magnet. The sun's heliosphere interaction with earth's magnetoshpere is likely largely causing this polarity.

Quote:
That magnetic interaction has absolutely stuff-all to do with why Enceladus orbits Saturn, or why it moves at the speed it does, or anything.


No, but due to the exchange of particles as shown in this video the major field lines becomes visible. I used it as an illustration for you to understand (as these field lines are otherwise invisible).

Quote:
Ah, a magical mystery force that we can't detect or experience in any way


It's not so magical. On a molecular, atomic and sub-atomic level there is also repulsive force next to attractive force. Although the used models you got taught at school are greatly simplified.

A simple question. Why don't negatively charged electrons crash into positively charged atoms?

Last edited by MikeB on 24-Apr-2011 at 08:09 PM.

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T-J 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 20:49:32
#589 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
A simple question. Why don't negatively charged electrons crash into positively charged atoms?


A simple answer to an over-simplified question would be 'due to conservation of angular momentum'.

However, your question presupposes that we accept the notion that electrons orbit the nucleus in a simple, momentum against attractive forces system. This notion is no longer up-to-date with current physics and hence the question is a little redundant.

Under the normal, macro-scale laws of electromagnetism, an electron orbiting a nucleus must radiate energy in the form of electromagnetic waves, reducing the electron's total energy and causing it to crash into the nucleus - this is where you wanted me to go, whereupon I should have thrown my hands up in defeat and joined the church of strepulsion. However, the trail doesn't end at electromagnetism.

We have known for decades that such models are not applicable on the micro (or 'quantum') scale. Instead, we have a quantum physics to describe this. We understand the 'motion' of an electron as random, but that on average the regions of highest probability to find the electrons (for a given energy state) will be a spherical region in 3-d space. This is equivalent to the electron 'orbits' described by the simpler Bohr model of the atom. Under this random motion of quantum mechanics, the electron will not radiate any energy because its motion is not due to angular momentum but instead due to random quantum jumps. Hence it can continue in this random quantum motion for as long as it likes without crashing into the nucleus.



Now, the challenge of modern physics is to join up this quantum mechanics, which works at small scales but gives silly answers on a macro scale, with relativity, which works on the macro scale but can't deal with things like electrons.

This will take a lot of hard work, and won't be helped by woo about magnetism. We already know about magnetism. Heck, we know much more about magnetism than we do gravity, we know exactly how powerful it is, and we even know exactly what particle transmits its force through space.

Gravity, well, gravity is complicated by the fact that we haven't found its transmitting particle. And it might not even have one, instead being an entropic force. But it definitely exists, its an intrinsic property of mass and since the Sun has mass, it exerts gravitational attraction, not magical repulsion.

Last edited by T-J on 24-Apr-2011 at 08:50 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 22:07:59
#590 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@MikeB

Quote:
No, planet are not like tiny bar magnets. They are kept in place like this: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/videogallery/index.html?collection_id=14658&media_id=82280481


While I am perfectly capable of understanding and accepting the existence of a magnetic flux "circuit" existing between two adjacent magnetic fields, the flux densities are simply too weak, and the distances are too great to generate the forces that you describe, and if they were magnetically "attached" in the way you describe the planet would have its magnetic axis and its rotational axis exactly aligned with each other and with the magnetic flux of the controlling magnetic field. The fact that the rotational axes of the majority of planets does not align with the suns rotational axis demonstrates that the magnetic forces are of negligible relevance in determining the motion of the planets. This point is hammered home even more so when you consider the fact that the Earths magnetic field dipole is gently wandering around in such a way that magnetic north does not in any way correspond with either the Earths rotational north or the Solar north. This tilting of rotational axes is impossible in a magnetically operated system, and irrelevant in a gravitationally operated system.

Quote:
A simple question. Why don't negatively charged electrons crash into positively charged atoms?

While I could give an in depth answer to this question I feel that there is a risk that I could overflow this thread and bore everybody to tears, besides somebody else has done a far better job of explaining electron orbits than I ever could.
Of course, being a dinosaur, and coming from a time before quantum mechanics got their quantum toolkits, I was taught using the particle/wave duality, and the fixed "orbits", and "packets" of light released when an electron moved to a lower exitation level were explained in terms of resonant harmonics of the electron as a wave.
As has already been explained, scientists are willing to update their theories if a better one comes along, but it does have to be better.
As an engineer I just go along with what works the best. Occams razor and all that sort of stuff.

Last edited by Nimrod on 24-Apr-2011 at 10:42 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 24-Apr-2011 at 10:08 PM.

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Lou 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 24-Apr-2011 23:13:19
#591 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

Why the planets appear "stable".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_stabilized_magnetic_levitation

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BrianK 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 25-Apr-2011 1:50:16
#592 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@MikeB

Quote:
The sun is a big magnet which fully rotates every 26.24 days (all the planet move around it much slower). The force of this huge magnet rotation grows weaker further away from the object, but this is what keeps the planets (smaller magnets) in motion. Would the sun's rotation slow down, the planets will gradually slow down in their orbits as well (but not crash into the sun due to repulsion).

We've seen this hypothesis. Why have you failed to provide any evidence? There are 4 fundamental forces strong, weak, electromagnetic, and graviational forces. Show us the amount of each force at play here. The largest amount of Force in these interactions have the overriding force. We're open to the evidence you simply need to bring it.

You claim a moon and a planet has magnetism that establishes orbit. But, even here you've not brought us data or calculations to demonstrate that to be. And you've yet to explain how the non-magnetic objects are suddenly influenced by a magnetic charge.

And certainly we've talked about how other planets don't coorespond to magetism. Uranus' dipole is off center and North is close to our South pole. If it's aligning itself to the sun it should, in the least, have it's pole in a similar alignment to the other planets. But you've yet to demonstrate how.

There's a simple catch phrase here -- Do the math! This will show us the results, and convince us that the magnetic force is truly larger than the gravitational force.

Last edited by BrianK on 25-Apr-2011 at 01:54 AM.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 25-Apr-2011 5:16:41
#593 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@BrianK

Quote:
There's a simple catch phrase here -- Do the math! This will show us the results, and convince us that the magnetic force is truly larger than the gravitational force.


It may be difficult to understand, but to perform such math you need to perform exact measures (or at least know in some way, outer space experiments can help). Based on the orbits of the sun, planets and moons one could probably roughly estimate the bulk forces responsable in a computer model (but if a Nibiru exists the model will fail without also taking this into account). Not only that but also the magnetic push/pull of nearby star systems is important and we also have an enormous magnet in the middle of our galaxy. Our galaxy as a whole will also push/pull onto other galaxies.

One thing to understand is that moons don't need to be able to generate their own magnetic fields entirely on their own. Like the sun turns the earth and jupiter into such strong magnets, the planets will strenghten their moons into behaving like magnets and thus orbit at a certain distance. So what is puzzling so many scientists/astronomers for why this or that moon generates a magnetic field may not be too puzzling at all if you understand the body they are orbiting in large part may generate this magnetic field for them. And for some to think this force needs to be extremely strong, I think they dont understand there's not much resistance in outer space. If all other resistant forces are extremely weak, the required force can be weak (as in relatively weak as everything on planetary scale is enormous).

The Sun is the dominant magnet in our system, but Jupiter is a big magnet as well and will play a very significant influence especially on the gas planets nearer to Jupiter than to the sun. To understand their behaviour though you need to understand there is repulsion as well (as one magnet pulls into one direction another may push into another direction and a balance between forces will be found).

I believe the only reason why there are seperate particles is only possible due to repulsion. Essentially IMO everything you see, touch and don't see and can't touch are made out of waveforms. Particles are just contained waves due to repulsive forces.

Particles have mass due to attractive forces. Particles can pass through matter without collision due to repulsive forces (creating a relative emptiness between atomic particles and planetary/stellar objects).

Last edited by MikeB on 25-Apr-2011 at 05:44 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 25-Apr-2011 at 05:32 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 25-Apr-2011 at 05:18 AM.

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Kronos 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 25-Apr-2011 6:50:41
#594 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@Lou

That one will only work if you position the object stable above one pole of the magnet.

But as allready pointed out, the sun rotates faster than any of it's orbiting planets so that doesn't work.

This also destroys the theory that magnetic fields of some planets are just induced by the sun's, cos they would need to change with every sun-rotation.

There is also the issue that we have 4 types objects (artificial an natural):
- object with a "dynamo" like earth creating their own magnetic field changing alignment with every sun-rotation

- objects with magnetized iron also changinging aligment

- objects with conducting material and a therefore an induced magnetfield which according to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz's_law]Lenz's law[/url] is opposed to the sun (or whichever object they orbit)

- objects made of non-conducting material, no magnetic effects here

But yet all these kinds of object can retain a stable orbit (the last one should just escape the solar-system in a straight line, while others would wobble horribly).

And furthermore all these orbits can be calculated according to the laws of gravitation.

So even if there is some unknown force, and even if it's having a major impact over interstellear distances, there is one thing we can say for sure, it's NOT magnetism.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 25-Apr-2011 7:41:38
#595 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@Kronos

Quote:
And furthermore all these orbits can be calculated according to the laws of gravitation.


Understand that the mass of planets are estimated through astronominal observations and not the other way around.

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Kronos 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 25-Apr-2011 7:47:48
#596 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@MikeB

The mass of earth, moon and mars can be measured by their gravitation.
The mass of satelites is very well known


These cover all 4 types of objects.

And they all orbit based on gravitation.

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Nimrod 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 25-Apr-2011 7:59:06
#597 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@MikeB

Quote:
It may be difficult to understand, but to perform such math you need to perform exact measures (or at least know in some way, outer space experiments can help).


It may be difficult to understand, but people have been doing precisely that for a long time now. The curvature and diameter of the Earth was calculated by the ancient Greeks, and the method they developed has been refined and improved by the addition of modern electronics.
We have measured the orbits of the Sun, its planets, and their natural satellites. We have measured the magnetic fields where applicable. We have put artificial satellites into orbit of the Earth using calculations based on Newtons laws of gravitation and motion, not Faraday and Lenz. We also have satellites in Solar orbit so that we can carry out observations on the entire surface of the sun st the same time. There are also probes like Cassini/Huygens, as well as orbital telescopes like Hubble.

You are still glossing over the fact that the magnetic force needed to control the orbit of a planet would first align its magnetosphere with the suns magnetosphere. Earths magnetic dipole does not align with the suns, and Mars and Venus only have localised magnetic fields indicating the presence of some ferromagnetic material rather than a planetary dynamo.

Your theory fails due to its own internal inconsistencies. In a gravitational model, non aligned or non existent magnetic fields are irrelevant. In a magnetic model they are a fatal flaw.

Quote:
Understand that the mass of planets are estimated through astronominal observations and not the other way around.

Measurements made during the Voyager flypast corrected observation errors of planetary mass removing the evidence for "PlanetX" as a large planet orbiting outside the orbit of Pluto

Last edited by Nimrod on 25-Apr-2011 at 08:04 AM.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 25-Apr-2011 8:19:11
#598 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@Kronos

Quote:
The mass of earth, moon and mars can be measured by their gravitation.


Can you point towards some independent studies on this matter?

In any case atmospheric pressure will play a role while "weighing". As the moon holds no real atmosphere the results there should be more genuine than here on earth.

For example if the atmospheric pressure here on earth would be as high as in liquid water we would float in the atmosphere.

And how would you want to check if the estimated mass is the actual mass?

If you understand this the ways to put this "law" to the test do not really exist at this point. If the law of universal gravity does not work, you can *make it work* by lowering or upping your estimated mass!

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Kronos 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 25-Apr-2011 8:37:43
#599 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote:
@Kronos

Quote:
The mass of earth, moon and mars can be measured by their gravitation.


Can you point towards some independent studies on this matter?


We have landed probes/spacecrafts on both the moon and mars (hint)

Quote:

In any case atmospheric pressure will play a role while "weighing". As the moon holds no real atmosphere the results there should be more genuine than here on earth.

For example if the atmospheric pressure here on earth would be as high as in liquid water we would float in the atmosphere.



ven IF air-pressure had real impact, ever heard of a thing called "vakuum" ?

Read a helium-filled object in a vakuum would fall down and meassure wheigt just like the seamen in a U-boat still stick to the ground even if the boat is floating.

But it's interesting to see how much energy you waste in finding holes in gravity by fail to address the obvious failures in you magnetic theory.

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MikeB 
Re: [Poll] Nibiru: What if?
Posted on 25-Apr-2011 8:43:29
#600 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

Without repulsion we couldn't even exist in our current form.

The repulsion of earth's molecules also provides us a place to stand on. As for example molecules are stated to be mostly "empty" according to modern day scientists. The atoms are tiny in between a lot of nothingness (according to scientists) and the electrons moving around the atoms are stated to be even smaller. Without repulsion the molecules we are made out of would fall through the matter of the earth. Obviously that's not the case.

IMO it's clear both attractive and repulsive forces exist everywhere, keeping things together as well as seperate.

Last edited by MikeB on 25-Apr-2011 at 08:57 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 25-Apr-2011 at 08:50 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 25-Apr-2011 at 08:47 AM.

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