@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: Well, the only way to fix that is 100% openness, right? That lays the blame at the wrong entity. If someone is going around assuming a conspirarcy and looking for evidence to support their conclusion it matters very little the % of openness of an agency. You gotta get those believers to the point they understand the value of an epistomological system where they evidence first and conclude last, not vice versa.

If all evidence was available first, wouldn't that be easy?

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National Security issues? If communications are not encrypted to satellites there is a much greater probability of external manipulation. I, and I doubt, NASA wants to lose a $200Million dollar mission because they failed to encrypt communications and some script kiddy drove the rover over a cliff.

Clearly your signals are crossed. Sound+video and controlling/command signals are two different things.

@Lou

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If all evidence was available first, wouldn't that be easy?

It'd sure make reaching a conclusion easy. Though all evidence available first would be impossible. Again the closest thing we have to this is science. Any conclusion always comes with a cavot of 'with the current state of evidence'. It accepts the best would be to have all evidence first along with the reality that the request is impossible.

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Clearly your signals are crossed. Sound+video and controlling/command signals are two different things.

My guess was not all extensive but a case I could think of why they'd want security. Along the same lines one wouldn't want an unencrpyted stream. Imagine if some one captured the stream inserted pictures of very small bacteria. NASA would then have to explain how the bacteria wasn't from Mars but a hacker. Damage to rep and costs to focus on such non-science crap would be more then a waste of tax-payer monies.

@Lou

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/landing-on-mars-is-hard-but-another-mission-to-the-red-planet-is-about-to-begin/2011/11/16/gIQA50ExhN_story.html

USA: Over came Mars problems in the 90s. 100% successful to Mars for the last 6 missions. The only successful landing, collection, and transmission of data from Mars.

Russia 0% successful to Mars for the last 20 missions. Russia's problems are believed to be related to failures of integration and reliance on the cheapest electronics.

Or it could possibly be... Space Aliens who helped Bush get elected prefer the USA.
http://astro.wsu.edu/worthey/astro/html/im-ufo/im-aliens/aliens9.html

@BrianK

All the evidence you need is right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzwTlf73xsk

Of course you will disregard everything.

@Lou

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All the evidence you need is right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzwTlf73xsk Of course you will disregard everything.

Don't have time to watch it all before work. I can probably do it tonight. But, in my first 5 minutes I saw some leading assumptions and fallacies.

One huge one is the establishment of a research agency does not guarantee the research is authentic. For examples of this we know that Russia, USA, Israel, and others had established groups trying to use mental telepathy and other PSI type of powers to influence wars and the opposition. There's nothing to indicate they ever useful. That's why we see military attacks instead of ghosts attacking Al Qaida, for example. Another example that is very large is http://nccam.nih.gov/ - the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. Their job is to spend billions testing the wife tale cures to see if they're real. Ginko, acupuntcure. echinacea and many, many other items have found to be equivalent in success rates to placebos.

The options (take NCCAM for example) are one of two. Either one is either going love CAM and hate science and thereby claim NCCAM is a billion dollar anti-CAM conspiracy OR those that like science will be satisfied that these alternative treatments are finally getting the testing they deserve to help our understanding. I don't see any reason a similar approach wouldn't occur in the politics of rock moving, cow exploding, anal probing, wheat destroying UFOs.

Last edited by BrianK on 30-Nov-2011 at 12:32 PM.

@BrianK

I suggest you watch that one and the one about the Mayans and crop circles which is only 17 minutes.

Regarding the video I linked, you can read the documents here:
http://majesticdocuments.com/sources.php

@Lou

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I suggest you watch that one and the one about the Mayans and crop circles which is only 17 minutes. Regarding the video I linked, you can read the documents here: http://majesticdocuments.com/sources.php

Back in the early 80s I was in Junior High. I read at least 1 book about the Majestic 12. It'll be interesting to see if there was any thing of more significance uncovered since then, and to remember the readings. In case you haven't figured it out yet I was one of those kids that loved Big Foot, Nessie, UFO, Bermuda Triangle, Ghosts, etc. Ingested all I could find from the local library and went to the bigger downtown St. Paul and Minneapolis libaries when my local one's were tapped out. And one of my favorite shows was Leonard Nimoy hosting In Search Of.

Last edited by BrianK on 30-Nov-2011 at 02:07 PM.

@BrianK

More documents have come to light in the 90s and the video I linked simply discusses the authenticity of the documents, not the actual text in them.

@Lou

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All the evidence you need is right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzwTlf73xsk Of course you will disregard everything.

I often find the difficult part of watching these videos is the presenters spoonfeed you their conclusions. This one isn't much different. It starts with the conclusions from a presenter. It then gives the evidence, again smattered with conclusions. To demonstrate problems one would have lay out the fallacies continually throughout the show. An excercise in futility as I don't persume one will critically assess a critique.

One part that got me laughing was the guy who essentially said, My Dad worked for the Army and he claimed aliens were real so I believe him. I wonder if his family had Santa or the Easter Bunny. In recent times it's been well documented that people tend to believe their friends and families more so than evidence. In certain ways social media and the internet thrive on this.

IMO the Majestic 12 did exist. So while some of the documents here are likely real this doesn't mean they actually proved aliens visit us from other planets. Which you seemed to indicate in your last post.

Last edited by BrianK on 02-Dec-2011 at 02:38 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 02-Dec-2011 at 02:33 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: All the evidence you need is right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzwTlf73xsk Of course you will disregard everything. I often find the difficult part of watching these videos is the presenters spoonfeed you their conclusions. This one isn't much different. It starts with the conclusions from a presenter. It then gives the evidence, again smattered with conclusions. To demonstrate problems one would have lay out the fallacies continually throughout the show. An excercise in futility as I don't persume one will critically assess a critique. One part that got me laughing was the guy who essentially said, My Dad worked for the Army and he claimed aliens were real so I believe him. I wonder if his family had Santa or the Easter Bunny. In recent times it's been well documented that people tend to believe their friends and families more so than evidence. In certain ways social media and the internet thrive on this. IMO the Majestic 12 did exist. So while some of the documents here are likely real this doesn't mean they actually proved aliens visit us from other planets. Which you seemed to indicate in your last post.

Perhaps you should also view the one on the cattle mutilations.

Here's your fallacy:

1) you assume parents will lie to their children when their children are adults as a rule to bring your view of things down to the mundane
2) you assume everyone is lying when it is the goverment who has been proven to lie even in court
3) you assume everyone is potentially crazy, except you
4) you assume you are perfectly normal

@Lou

1) People are people. We all do our best at trying to explain a situation. The parent tells the child their version of events. If the parent has misinterpeted the situation they will give the false understanding as the version to the child. The child, due to their bias believed the parent and failed to fact check the statement. The legal term for this it is called hearsay. It's inadmissible in court due to it's misrepentation of factual understanding. Now it may be true the problem lies with the child's inability to demonstrate it is in fact true.

2) A single statement is an unproven postulate. It's through multiple lines of evidence that give us the best indication of the factuality. Governments, like any other, need to be fact checked. So being these are government documents they need to be fact checked. As you say the video demonstrated them to be government documents but didn't demonstrate factuality of the documents themselves.

But really look at what you believe the cover up to be. You conceive of a conspiracy involving multiple governments throughout at least half a century, multiple militaries, multiple professional astronomers, multiple archeologists, multiple average joe astronomers to all hide and perserve the secrets of aliens? And to top that off the aliens themselves agree to hide themselves too so they spend their time stomping on wheat fields, exploding cows and anal probing farmers instead of landing on the White House lawn?

3&4) Who said I didn't assume I wasn't crazy? I might be, I'll go fact check that.

You probably want to fact check yourself too on this one. Is it a few thousand people misinterepeted something as aliens. (A few trillion believe in a Christian God over an Islamic God. Either group or perhaps both have trillions of misintereptations. So we do have a clear indication that people get it wrong.) Or that millions of people over multiple decades are all lying to hide Vistiors and yet while excellent actors failed to land any major movie roles?

Last edited by BrianK on 02-Dec-2011 at 09:17 PM.

@BrianK

One last video...the Bill Meier story.

real pictures
real footage
real oval laser holes put thru trees
real extra-terrestrial material scientifically examined

even prophecy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoZO6CAXxsI

Last edited by Lou on 02-Dec-2011 at 09:52 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 02-Dec-2011 at 09:33 PM.

@Lou

I'll check it out.

Prophecy. Brings to mind the huge problems with Nostradamus. His predictions are, claimed to be, the most accurate ever created. Except they've been unusable. we appearently don't understand what they mean until after the event. As they say hindsight is always 20/20.

I watched about 5 minutes and Bill predicted a cure to AIDS to happen in 2006. I didn't make it much farther due to time. But, I'd like to note - didn't happen. It'd be earth shattering to have such a cure and highly profitable for whatever organization were to come up with such a cure. Though the announcer claims Bill Meier to be right on the facts, dates, and players? So we already see cherry picking in the first few minutes.

Again I'll check it out some more...
Here's something for you to check out.
http://www.thebiggestsecret.org/home/index.php/articles/ufo-et/meier-hoax/60-meier-hoax/76-meier-smoking-gun
http://www.thebiggestsecret.org/home/index.php/articles/ufo-et/meier-hoax

Updates - at the 4th tick mark. Found many interesting things. There's some guy that's interpeting truthfulness by reading body language. Doesn't work. We're definitely used to certain behaviors as honest answers and try to read in motivation. If one is deluded they'll have the same behaviors. If one is conscious of these behaviors they can use them to help manipulate the situation in their favor. Actors take advantage of these, of course. So, I don't really give any weight to this guy's opinion, as it is nothing more.

I found it amusing that aliens told him he'd meet and marry his wife but they choose to leave out the marriage would be a bad one. How ####ed would you be about traveling with someone who can travel into the future. The alien clearly would have known about the sucky marriage but didn't bother to warn him? I'd kick the alien in the balls.

One question I have for you. Within this they claimed that the little green men is all a fabrication. That aliens are truly humanoids from other planets. "We'd be surprised how many aliens out there look exactly like us", I believe was the line. So how do you use this 'evidence' to offset the 'evidence' of people that claim to see greens and greys at the foot of the bed and using anal probes on them?

Oh and I may add -- there clearly are false prophets in this world. Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite are some good examples of this. How do you analyze and seperate the wheat from chaff if you will.

Last edited by BrianK on 03-Dec-2011 at 03:38 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 03-Dec-2011 at 03:35 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 02-Dec-2011 at 10:30 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou I'll check it out. Prophecy. Brings to mind the huge problems with Nostradamus. His predictions are, claimed to be, the most accurate ever created. Except they've been unusable. we appearently don't understand what they mean until after the event. As they say hindsight is always 20/20. I watched about 5 minutes and Bill predicted a cure to AIDS to happen in 2006. I didn't make it much farther due to time. But, I'd like to note - didn't happen. It'd be earth shattering to have such a cure and highly profitable for whatever organization were to come up with such a cure. Though the announcer claims Bill Meier to be right on the facts, dates, and players? So we already see cherry picking in the first few minutes.

Actually that's not true. A cure has been discovered but it's expensive. I forget if it was something to do with TB or bone marrow. Besides, I don't see Magic Johnson dead, do you?

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Here's something for you to check out. http://www.thebiggestsecret.org/home/index.php/articles/ufo-et/meier-hoax/60-meier-hoax/76-meier-smoking-gun http://www.thebiggestsecret.org/home/index.php/articles/ufo-et/meier-hoax

The "recreation" of the wedding cake video was pretty pathetic. The ufo couldn't be seen until it was "zoomed" and even then it wasn't moving.

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Updates - at the 4th tick mark. Found many interesting things. There's some guy that's interpeting truthfulness by reading body language. Doesn't work. We're definitely used to certain behaviors as honest answers and try to read in motivation. If one is deluded they'll have the same behaviors. If one is conscious of these behaviors they can use them to help manipulate the situation in their favor. Actors take advantage of these, of course. So, I don't really give any weight to this guy's opinion, as it is nothing more.

? Intelligence agencies do this all the time...

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I found it amusing that aliens told him he'd meet and marry his wife but they choose to leave out the marriage would be a bad one. How ####ed would you be about traveling with someone who can travel into the future. The alien clearly would have known about the sucky marriage but didn't bother to warn him? I'd kick the alien in the balls.

A marriage is a marriage, no?

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One question I have for you. Within this they claimed that the little green men is all a fabrication. That aliens are truly humanoids from other planets. "We'd be surprised how many aliens out there look exactly like us", I believe was the line. So how do you use this 'evidence' to offset the 'evidence' of people that claim to see greens and greys at the foot of the bed and using anal probes on them?

There are many races. They are mostly humanoid in that they have a head, 2 arms and 2 legs. Why does that seem strange to you? Greys are humanoid.

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Oh and I may add -- there clearly are false prophets in this world. Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite are some good examples of this. How do you analyze and seperate the wheat from chaff if you will.

Religion ... and a lack thereof.

@Lou

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Actually that's not true. A cure has been discovered but it's expensive. I forget if it was something to do with TB or bone marrow. Besides, I don't see Magic Johnson dead, do you?

This might help you. AIDS cure? There perhaps might be 1 person cured and in 2007 not 2006. So yeah that prediction was a fail.

As for Magic Johnson being disease free, aka cure, and being dead are different things. I can't think of a disease one might contract that kills them a second later. Instead many diseases have, varying, levels of manageability while one's alive but again that doesn't mean it's cured.

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The "recreation" of the wedding cake video was pretty pathetic. The ufo couldn't be seen until it was "zoomed" and even then it wasn't moving.

I'd agree that wasn't great. Though some of other stuff, like construction of the fake UFO appeared very spot on.

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A marriage is a marriage, no?

If someone knows your future. Tells you you're marry this woman and fails to say 'Your life is going to suck' would you not consider the 'time traveler' fairly calloused? I sure do.

But really how well was the description that Bill received about his wife to be? He says it was a description. Was it as general as you'll meet a brown haired girl and marry her? That'd be fairly useless and fairly easy to misinterpete as valuable.

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Intelligence agencies do this all the time

Sort of. It's not usually interpeting a video. It's talking to the person in an answer and response. And they can be fooled. A really good actor is one instance. Another is someone that believes the lie so deeply they no longer consider the concept false. For example, someone with a deep psychosis.

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Religion ... and a lack thereof.

Religion is simply organized and controlled spirituality. I think it was about tick 3 or so there was clearly a guy that believed in UFOs and astal projection to the degree he some Bill as what religious people might call a Saint. And the myserious direction and discovery of scrolls. Seems to happen all the time. Joseph Smith II?

Last edited by BrianK on 04-Dec-2011 at 05:12 PM.

@Lou

Some of this is just too amusing. The aliens would come when others weren't around. (Actually my superhero power is invisibility though it only works when no one else is looking at me. So I know where he's coming from.) And the space-apple that some just don't believe made me bust a gut.

But, getting back to some of the quality of the evidence. The one woman took 3 pictures of aliens but didn't know it until she had the photos in her hand. What's the chain of evidence here? It's not like a photoshop is prefectly security and a guarantee that someone didn't manipulate the film and or developing. There was the picture of the sparks coming out from the ship. Which clearly was a dude spinning a sparkler on the end of a string. Photoshop might have done some of these images good. Many, not all, are clearly fake. Pendulum swining come on!

I don't know if I can go on. The gun which is undetailed, undemonstrated but claimed to be a 37mile range burning weapon is laughable. They searched toy stores for something similar? Really how about DIY? That's how Hollywood does it.

Last edited by BrianK on 04-Dec-2011 at 05:46 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: Actually that's not true. A cure has been discovered but it's expensive. I forget if it was something to do with TB or bone marrow. Besides, I don't see Magic Johnson dead, do you? This might help you. AIDS cure? There perhaps might be 1 person cured and in 2007 not 2006. So yeah that prediction was a fail. As for Magic Johnson being disease free, aka cure, and being dead are different things. I can't think of a disease one might contract that kills them a second later. Instead many diseases have, varying, levels of manageability while one's alive but again that doesn't mean it's cured.

Perhaps you don't know the difference. He has HIV but is AIDS free.

Quote:

Quote: The "recreation" of the wedding cake video was pretty pathetic. The ufo couldn't be seen until it was "zoomed" and even then it wasn't moving. I'd agree that wasn't great. Though some of other stuff, like construction of the fake UFO appeared very spot on.

Most of his videos came in the 60's and 70's. I'd argue anyone can recreate them today. No one could recreate them then.
But I don't understand how any recreation could not be spot on. If you give me a picture of something I can recreate it. In the end, there is no such thing as "alien geometry". Everything is made of circles, ovals, rectangles, etc...

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Quote: A marriage is a marriage, no? If someone knows your future. Tells you you're marry this woman and fails to say 'Your life is going to suck' would you not consider the 'time traveler' fairly calloused? I sure do. But really how well was the description that Bill received about his wife to be? He says it was a description. Was it as general as you'll meet a brown haired girl and marry her? That'd be fairly useless and fairly easy to misinterpete as valuable.

This is a useless point. I could get a prediction that I would win the lottery. Would that be wrong if I did it after being turned into a quadrapeligic and made unable to enjoy it?

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Quote: Intelligence agencies do this all the time Sort of. It's not usually interpeting a video. It's talking to the person in an answer and response. And they can be fooled. A really good actor is one instance. Another is someone that believes the lie so deeply they no longer consider the concept false. For example, someone with a deep psychosis.

Great, go prove he has a deep phychosis...

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Quote: Religion ... and a lack thereof. Religion is simply organized and controlled spirituality. I think it was about tick 3 or so there was clearly a guy that believed in UFOs and astal projection to the degree he some Bill as what religious people might call a Saint. And the myserious direction and discovery of scrolls. Seems to happen all the time. Joseph Smith II?

Generally, even people to are atheist or non-religious believe in the human spirit. I think you are intentionally confusing issues here to disinform. There is no Billy Meier cult.

Last edited by Lou on 04-Dec-2011 at 05:57 PM.

@Lou

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He has HIV but is AIDS free.

Perhaps you don't know the difference. AIDS is defined as the last stage to HIV. So yes we have people that have HIV but are not yet in the final stages of the disease. It takes 10-15 years for HIV to develop into AIDS if one doesn't receive treatment.

Now again to the statement it was claimed BIlly Meiers stated AIDS would be cured by 2006. There isn't anything that eliminates AIDS, eg cures, from a body. If your point is Magic Johnson doesn't have AIDS the answer is that it's due to prevention or delay from using drugs. Prevention is not a cure. Meiers was wrong about this one.

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I'd argue anyone can recreate them today. No one could recreate them then.

This is more of a question of timing. The people today could recreate them using technology of the 60s and 70s. It's not like they broke out the Video Toaster to make these. If they had you might have a valid point.

In a way what you are saying here is if we use 5K BC tools in the 21st century it gives us no indication whatsoever of the possibilities in 5K BC... aka archeology is bunk.

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This is a useless point. I could get a prediction that I would win the lottery. Would that be wrong if I did it after being turned into a quadrapeligic and made unable to enjoy it?

There's a clear difference here. It's highly doubtful winning the lottery made you a quadrapeligic. On the other hand the unhappy marriage couldn't exist without a marriage. I never invalidated anything. I made the simple and honest observation that if an alien knows the future, tells you about your wife, and fails to say it's going to suck for you I'd consider the alien a callous ####. The alien clearly knows the future and therefore knows your life will suck.

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Great, go prove he has a deep phychosis

It's an important point to consider that Meier believes what he says even if what he says. We have many cases of people believing in untruths and considering them true. Though for any evidence on the truthfulness of the statements themselves it's worthless. I already explained Hearsay to you. If I did a bad job, fine, go find a better source as that's what's going on here. It's worthless for validation. It's usefulness is limited to helping compelling the theatatrics of Meiers.

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There is no Billy Meier cult.

Go back and view the section with the guy that wanted to track him down. The guy was convinced by the stories to believe in Meiers even though he never met him or experienced him. There clearly is at least 1 case of belief in Meier through stories in such a way it convinced someone to become a follower.

Last edited by BrianK on 04-Dec-2011 at 06:11 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 04-Dec-2011 at 06:07 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Some of this is just too amusing. The aliens would come when others weren't around. (Actually my superhero power is invisibility though it only works when no one else is looking at me. So I know where he's coming from.) And the space-apple that some just don't believe made me bust a gut.

I don't see how an apple grown in a greenhouse would be different from an apple grown in a forest so I don't really care where it was grown.

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But, getting back to some of the quality of the evidence. The one woman took 3 pictures of aliens but didn't know it until she had the photos in her hand. What's the chain of evidence here? It's not like a photoshop is prefectly security and a guarantee that someone didn't manipulate the film and or developing. There was the picture of the sparks coming out from the ship. Which clearly was a dude spinning a sparkler on the end of a string. Photoshop might have done some of these images good. Many, not all, are clearly fake. Pendulum swining come on!

Going back to the apple issue, I don't see how electrical effects with air emenating from a ufo would be different from a sparkler but to support your mundane view, you will assume a sparkler.

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I don't know if I can go on. The gun which is undetailed, undemonstrated but claimed to be a 37mile range burning weapon is laughable. They searched toy stores for something similar? Really how about DIY? That's how Hollywood does it.

Well, can you explain the oval hole in the tree?

For that matter, can you explain his scientific "predictions" about the moons of Jupiter and Saturn and about Jupiter's ring? ...amongst others... In the end, anything is reproducable on film - yet that's your best excuse for the mundane. What's not reproducable is those scientific (better word) relevations. You can't reproduce those.

Last edited by Lou on 04-Dec-2011 at 06:14 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 04-Dec-2011 at 06:09 PM.

@Lou

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I don't see how an apple grown in a greenhouse would be different from an apple grown in a forest so I don't really care where it was grown.

It was claimed to be an extraterrstial apple larger than our own. It'd be invaluable to sample the apple see if it's genetic code is the same as other apples.

For example, the SweetTango apple didn't exist until roughly 2009 when a scientist at the University of Minnesota scientist created it. It could be some very compelling evidence if this time traveling alien stole a Sweet Tango from the future and grew it on their ship then it fell into the hands of someone from the 1940s.

Or perhaps it's genetic code is unlike any other apple we know of. Again that evidence could be huge.

Of course there I go again demanding evidence for faith. 4

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you will assume a sparkler

Yeah because I can clearly see the guy spinning a sparkler in the photo. Though all aliens look like us, according to the early Meier video. So perhaps it's an alien spinning a sparkler.

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Well, can you explain the oval hole in the tree?

Looks to me like a propane torch made hole. It's no skin off my back if people out there believe craziness. Care to pay me per hour to run some experiments? Afterall it's not for me to disprove it's for the claiments to prove.

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For that matter, can you explain his scientific "predictions" about the moons of Jupiter and Saturn and about Jupiter's ring?

I had to stop watching and do some actual life worthy stuff today. If I bring myself to stop laughing about the fake gun I might finish it later.

Felt it time to add this in lest ye forget -- "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence " - Carl Sagan.

Last edited by BrianK on 04-Dec-2011 at 06:32 PM.