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      /  Nibiru, what if ? - part 2
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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 0:01:55
#1461 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
Faster than Light Neutrinos? Error identified . It was a lose wire causing the clock to count time incorrectly.

LOL that sounds suspicious... Like they had a big meeting and said "we can't all be wrong, let's just make something up". I mean a loose wire...really? How does a loose wire affect an atomic clock exactly? What wire? Where is the 'proof' so to speak?

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 0:15:54
#1462 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
So in other words, magnetic fields can cause tornados.
If you think that the movement of a few gas bubbles is a tornado, then you are very easily sold on an idea. If you want to prove EM causes tornadoes you need to show changes in the magnetic fields in and around tornado alley. You also need to explain why there is no tornado generated at every single checkout in your local supermarket when the checkout moves your shopping to be scanned. (Rotating magnetic field in the conveyor motor)

/facepalm

Quote:

Quote:
I'm glad you have submitted more evidence towards my EM_IS_EVERYWHERE mantra
I am aware that there is EM. I am also aware of the amount of EM that there actually is, compared to the amount of EM needed to do what you claim. The term is "orders of magnitude"

I find it amusing that you failed to grasp the fact that the strength of magnetic fields can vary in orders of magnitude. Infact, you can use that phrase in the rhetoric just above this one in your reply.
Have you ever wondered why lightning usually surrounds an active volcano?
Oh and let's not forget this: http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/mercurys-magnetic-tornadoes-and-big-picture

EPIC FAIL ... again ...

Quote:

Quote:
Nassim H. explained to you that strong force is gravity. ...which passed peer review, btw...
I don't know how best to tell you, but the site that you linked to is not "peer review", and since it does nothing other than repeat the original claim without actually researcing it, or even checking the maths, it adds exactly and precisely nothing to the validity of the original flawed claim.
The equation to find the schwartzchild radius of a mass is Rs=2*M*G/C^2 Rearranging this equation to find the mass at any given schwartzchild radius gives us M=Rs*C^2/2G. Inserting the values into the equation gives a mass for the proton that does not match actual measurements. Conversely the schwarzchild radius of a mass of 1.673*10^-27kg would be approximately 1*10^-30 of the Planck length. Harameins idea is simply not supported by mathematics

even more references for you since you just love saying 'evidence doesn't exist' smack dab in the face of existing evidence....he has been peer-viewed before:
http://earthtransformation.com/topic-Haramein.htm
to quote:
Quote:
a fascinating discussion geared to a layman's understanding of the fundamental nature of the universe and creation that includes black holes, gravitational forces, dimensions, and the very structure of space itself - all of which are integral parts of his now-complete Unified Field Theory. Haramein's theory was published in the peer reviewed Noetic Journal, July 2005

In order for me to accept your math, can you please cite me your peer-reviewed papers? Please and thank you.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 2:17:11
#1463 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
Faster than Light Neutrinos? Error identified . It was a lose wire causing the clock to count time incorrectly.

LOL that sounds suspicious... Like they had a big meeting and said "we can't all be wrong, let's just make something up". I mean a loose wire...really? How does a loose wire affect an atomic clock exactly? What wire? Where is the 'proof' so to speak?

Excellent question - where's the data?! There's a couple of 'data' here. There's direct data -- The experiment is going to be rerun now that the equipment connections are no longer below spec. And there's heaps of indirect data - in so far as multiple other experiments have never seen this effect. And we've never found streams of neutrinos years prior to the light from a supernova. Something that would be seen if the the conditions were measured without error.

Though - I would like to note your foundation is all twisted up. You're demanding proof not because it's a scientific requirement (which it is) you're demanding it because it breaks your EM is everything faith. You need an open system where you don't start with the conclusion. As Dolby says - Science!

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 15:42:42
#1464 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@BrianK

LOL that sounds suspicious... Like they had a big meeting and said "we can't all be wrong, let's just make something up". I mean a loose wire...really? How does a loose wire affect an atomic clock exactly? What wire? Where is the 'proof' so to speak?

Excellent question - where's the data?! There's a couple of 'data' here. There's direct data -- The experiment is going to be rerun now that the equipment connections are no longer below spec. And there's heaps of indirect data - in so far as multiple other experiments have never seen this effect. And we've never found streams of neutrinos years prior to the light from a supernova. Something that would be seen if the the conditions were measured without error.

Though - I would like to note your foundation is all twisted up. You're demanding proof not because it's a scientific requirement (which it is) you're demanding it because it breaks your EM is everything faith. You need an open system where you don't start with the conclusion. As Dolby says - Science!

I'm asking for proof because the excuse is laughable. A fiber optic cable either transmits light or it doesn't.

Recall the experiment was rerun in November with the same results.
If the original results are RE-confirmed, then it just adds weight to the possibility of a broken model as many believe it to be already. It doesn't, however, depend on it.

Last edited by Lou on 23-Feb-2012 at 03:43 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 15:56:51
#1465 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
I'm asking for proof because the excuse is laughable. A fiber optic cable either transmits light or it doesn't.
It's not all as binary as you'd like. Light travels in all directions. For example with fiber arrays there can be cabling backscattering effects that degrades the signal causing bit-rate errors. This can happen through improper shielding, damage to the cable, or manufacturing defects.

Quote:
Recall the experiment was rerun in November with the same results.
It appears the line issues were discovered post Nov's run. If you run an experiment on the same set of equipment it's likely to validate you saw what you saw on that equipment. Had the experiment been re-run on new equipment it's likely the calibration could have been improved and the error would have been reduced or dropped out all together.

Remember the strength of multiple experiments and multiple lines of experimentation creates a larger swath of information to audit. Just 1 experiment is generally fairly weak. As you took your final conclusion on faith it's fairly easy to just cherry pick the 1 experiment out of the masses that confirms your view. Again be open and follow where the evidenceS lead. Don't put the conclusion before the horse.

Last edited by BrianK on 23-Feb-2012 at 03:59 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 16:31:03
#1466 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
I'm asking for proof because the excuse is laughable. A fiber optic cable either transmits light or it doesn't.
It's not all as binary as you'd like. Light travels in all directions. For example with fiber arrays there can be cabling backscattering effects that degrades the signal causing bit-rate errors. This can happen through improper shielding, damage to the cable, or manufacturing defects.

Quote:
Recall the experiment was rerun in November with the same results.
It appears the line issues were discovered post Nov's run. If you run an experiment on the same set of equipment it's likely to validate you saw what you saw on that equipment. Had the experiment been re-run on new equipment it's likely the calibration could have been improved and the error would have been reduced or dropped out all together.

Remember the strength of multiple experiments and multiple lines of experimentation creates a larger swath of information to audit. Just 1 experiment is generally fairly weak. As you took your final conclusion on faith it's fairly easy to just cherry pick the 1 experiment out of the masses that confirms your view.

Recall that the conclusion was that neutrinos can travel faster than light.
Recall this upset many people.
If they discovered a loose cable...and a fiber optic one at that...after the experiment, that certainly doesn't mean the experiment was run with a loose cable. You'd think this would have been checked on the second test in November...?

Quote:
Again be open and follow where the evidenceS lead. Don't put the conclusion before the horse.

Actually, I think you are the one assuming the original results are wrong, before there is actual proof they are wrong...because it agress with your views. Pot, kettle, black.

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olegil 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 17:00:17
#1467 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Lou

You're the one who ridiculed the idea that the experiment could be wrong. There seems there's something you don't know about optical signalling.

It's not binary. It's a continous curve (what many call analog) with properties like rise time, dispersion, overshoot, undershoot etc. This means that you will get jitter (phase noise). Not due to variable delay, but due to variable decision point of when something is a zero and when it's a one.

Yes, I work in that field (broadcast signal transport over fiber optics, and control systems for such things)

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 17:18:33
#1468 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@olegil

Read a little more. It was a GPS sync signal that was giving an error of 60ns. 60ns is a heck of a lot for one bad connection. But GPS sync is usually divided into one 1Hz signal and one 1MHz signal. 60ns is not a lot of phase noise on a 1MHz signal. So depending on how they used that 1MHz at the receiver, it's not all that unlikely after all.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 19:40:02
#1469 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@Lou

You're the one who ridiculed the idea that the experiment could be wrong.

No, I did not.

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 20:53:33
#1470 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
Have you ever wondered why lightning usually surrounds an active volcano?
So perhaps you could tell me exactly how many active volcanoes there are in the state of Kansas. Also the song "Oklahoma" from the 1955 movie of the same name seems to neglect to mention the proliferation of volcanic eruptions. If you want to prove that tornadoes are produced by EM, you will need to demonstrate the presence of magnetic fields in these areas, more powerful than those around the rare earth magnets used on high end magnetic separators used in industry. A column of bubbles rising in a conductive medium, acting as a homopole motor, just doesn't have the same impact.

Quote:
he has been peer-viewed before:
http://earthtransformation.com/topic-Haramein.htm
Your article is not a form of peer review. If they print an article about Haramein in Readers Digest, it will not be peer review. Peer review is when an idea is put before people who understand the concepts being reviewed and can find no problems or errors. I as an electrical engineer can peer review electrical engineering ideas, and can follow many mathematical propositions, but my opinion would not count as peer review if I were to comment on new surgical techniques, for example. Harameins CRAP fails to pass muster because of his faulty mathematics, as does the technobabble put out by Znidarsic in his claims about anti-gravity.

Quote:
In order for me to accept your math, can you please cite me your peer-reviewed papers? Please and thank you.
Unlike yourself, I have placed relevant equations on this page, and have even entered the figures and demonstrated the mathematics. All you need to do is follow the working out to perform peer review yourself. That is how the scientific principle works, and if I am wrong you can point out where. I do not need to be peer reviewed, I simply point out the errors in somebody elses idea. If my maths is correct, their Idea is wrong. No amount of ad hominems against me will make the mathematics any different.
To make it easier for you I will quote another item of mathematics for you to peer review.



1+1=2

Perhaps that one is not too complicated for you to follow and review.

Quote:
I'm asking for proof because the excuse is laughable. A fiber optic cable either transmits light or it doesn't.
So I assume that you have never heard of fibreoptic strain guages, as used on yacht masts, and wind turbine blades.

Last edited by Nimrod on 23-Feb-2012 at 09:14 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 23-Feb-2012 at 09:12 PM.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Feb-2012 21:36:14
#1471 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
Have you ever wondered why lightning usually surrounds an active volcano?
So perhaps you could tell me exactly how many active volcanoes there are in the state of Kansas. Also the song "Oklahoma" from the 1955 movie of the same name seems to neglect to mention the proliferation of volcanic eruptions. If you want to prove that tornadoes are produced by EM, you will need to demonstrate the presence of magnetic fields in these areas, more powerful than those around the rare earth magnets used on high end magnetic separators used in industry. A column of bubbles rising in a conductive medium, acting as a homopole motor, just doesn't have the same impact.

Quote:
he has been peer-viewed before:
http://earthtransformation.com/topic-Haramein.htm
Your article is not a form of peer review. If they print an article about Haramein in Readers Digest, it will not be peer review. Peer review is when an idea is put before people who understand the concepts being reviewed and can find no problems or errors. I as an electrical engineer can peer review electrical engineering ideas, and can follow many mathematical propositions, but my opinion would not count as peer review if I were to comment on new surgical techniques, for example. Harameins CRAP fails to pass muster because of his faulty mathematics, as does the technobabble put out by Znidarsic in his claims about anti-gravity.

Quote:
In order for me to accept your math, can you please cite me your peer-reviewed papers? Please and thank you.
Unlike yourself, I have placed relevant equations on this page, and have even entered the figures and demonstrated the mathematics. All you need to do is follow the working out to perform peer review yourself. That is how the scientific principle works, and if I am wrong you can point out where. I do not need to be peer reviewed, I simply point out the errors in somebody elses idea. If my maths is correct, their Idea is wrong. No amount of ad hominems against me will make the mathematics any different.
To make it easier for you I will quote another item of mathematics for you to peer review.



1+1=2

Perhaps that one is not too complicated for you to follow and review.

Quote:
I'm asking for proof because the excuse is laughable. A fiber optic cable either transmits light or it doesn't.
So I assume that you have never heard of fibreoptic strain guages, as used on yacht masts, and wind turbine blades.

This is not a peer-reviewed site. I didn't directly link to Nassim's peer reviewed sites, I linked to site which TOLD you what those sites were.

Also, this is not a peer-reviewed site, so I don't care how many equations you post.

If this simple logic of reading a page that tells you where he was peer reviewed is too complicated a process for you, then I suggest you quit the internet.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 24-Feb-2012 0:42:55
#1472 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
If this simple logic of reading a page that tells you where he was peer reviewed is too complicated a process for you, then I suggest you quit the internet.
Ihate to be the bearer of bad news...Just because it is on the Internet does not mean it is true. This citation is not a scientific peer review.

As for the fiber line issues. It appears the experiment will be rerun this spring. It will include multiple independent collectors and clocks. This should provide even better quality of evidence.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 24-Feb-2012 4:36:49
#1473 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Thought you might like a small list of Higgless Standard Model postulates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgsless_model
So again the lack of Higgs doesn't negate the entire theory as you wish.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 24-Feb-2012 14:52:16
#1474 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Thought you might like a small list of Higgless Standard Model postulates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgsless_model
So again the lack of Higgs doesn't negate the entire theory as you wish.

I guess then that depends on your definition of the 'the' in 'the entire theory'...
It's either 'the Standard model' or it's not.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 24-Feb-2012 14:53:49
#1475 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
If this simple logic of reading a page that tells you where he was peer reviewed is too complicated a process for you, then I suggest you quit the internet.
Ihate to be the bearer of bad news...Just because it is on the Internet does not mean it is true. This citation is not a scientific peer review.

As for the fiber line issues. It appears the experiment will be rerun this spring. It will include multiple independent collectors and clocks. This should provide even better quality of evidence.

http://www.mindspring.com/~noeticj/board.pdf

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 24-Feb-2012 22:10:52
#1476 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
http://www.mindspring.com/~noeticj/board.pdf
Please tell me you are not serious! Noetic "science" has to be the ultimate form of self delusion. claiming that something is true because the consequences of it not being true are unpleasant. Claiming that something is true simply because it "feels right" has to be the surest way of stifling progress since the days of the spanish inquisition.

If an idea cannot be proven mathematically, either by means of an equation that can be confirmed by experiment, or statistical analysis that gives a sufficiently high probability of repeatability,then it is nothing more than opinion. If the same idea can be shown to be wrong by use of mathematics, then regardless of the consequences, the idea is wrong. Among the wrong ideas are telepathy, faith healing, prescience, and telekinesis. all of these dreams are supported by the list of names quoted in your link

Quote:
The Institute of Noetic Sciences proposes noetic sciences as an alternative theory of "how beliefs, thoughts, and intentions affect the physical world"
Somebody needs to tell these people that Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the Jedi Knights are fictional creations, not a recording of actual historical events.

Quote:
Also, this is not a peer-reviewed site, so I don't care how many equations you post.
Primarily because you are not interested in facts. If the act of looking at an equation that has been put directly in front of your nose is too complicated for you then how can you hope to understand that the site that was linked to by the site that you sent me to was also not a peer review. Peer review is something that happens every time an idea is used to explain the result of experiments. If the idea has no relation to the real world then it has failed.[url=Also, this is not a peer-reviewed site, so I don't care how many equations you post.]herthffkj[/url]

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 25-Feb-2012 1:08:01
#1477 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
Quote:
If this simple logic of reading a page that tells you where he was peer reviewed is too complicated a process for you, then I suggest you quit the internet.
Ihate to be the bearer of bad news...Just because it is on the Internet does not mean it is true. This citation is not a scientific peer review.

http://www.mindspring.com/~noeticj/board.pdf [/quote] Yes a Board of which the vast majority do not have a scientific background doesn't inspire confidence in a high quality scientific review. Did you happen to read the mission statement where they clearly spell out the scientific approach has no place in their interest?

Oh and having worked with James H Fetzer at the University of Minnesota, dULuth I seriously question the accuracy of those named on the Board. There o no dEluth nor any William.

Last edited by BrianK on 25-Feb-2012 at 01:15 AM.
Last edited by BrianK on 25-Feb-2012 at 01:11 AM.
Last edited by BrianK on 25-Feb-2012 at 01:09 AM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 25-Feb-2012 22:26:14
#1478 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK & Nimrod,

Using mass-energy equivalence, how does 1 photon have 1,000,000 times more energy than another if they travel at the same speed?

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olegil 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 25-Feb-2012 23:28:44
#1479 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Lou

Because the energy of a photon isn't connected to its speed but its frequency.

Are you asking "why is the energy of a photon connected to its frequency instead of it speed"? Cause then I have a response for you. Why is an elephant?

Last edited by olegil on 25-Feb-2012 at 11:29 PM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 25-Feb-2012 23:34:39
#1480 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
Using mass-energy equivalence, how does 1 photon have 1,000,000 times more energy than another if they travel at the same speed?

Not sure what exactly you're trying to get at? Is this what you're asking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics_binding_energy

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