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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Mar-2012 18:23:52
#1621 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

Space fireflies...

I expect many UF(S)O reports once this happens:
http://news.yahoo.com/space-tourism-set-takeoff-2014-faa-says-171151586.html

Last edited by Lou on 21-Mar-2012 at 08:14 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Mar-2012 20:28:14
#1622 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

AHA!

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120320/NEWS0201/303200034/TN-science-bill-protects-teachers-who-allow-debate-over-evolution

So, indeed, only 'approved' science is taught. More proof of the system that only supports the status quo... I don't care that this article is focused on religious overtones, its really bigger than that.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Mar-2012 20:52:23
#1623 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
You are making blind assumptions. To use (the) Nimrod's favorite phrase: "orders of magnitude". He's shown moving a maybe 3 ton stone on logs on a flat surface a few feet. Show me a 20+ ton stone on logs on a rocky irregular surface, uphill and across a river.
If you watch the video and read the pages there's the 15 ton barn that was moved. Seems to me to be compelling evidence for your 20 ton stone question. A bit later is the 19,400 pound block being stood on end, aka 9.5 tons. He's certainly getting the math right as 128 cubic feet of concrete would weigh 19,200 pounds. At least according to the road engineer just down the hall. One of the nice things about this experiment is it is approachable. Why don't you go try this? For example perhaps he lied and object is a hollow foam box painted to look like concrete.

How much do the pyramid stones weigh? Turns out most are 2.5 Tons - under the 3 ton stone he's rolling by himself. http://www.unmuseum.org/kpyramid.htm

Quote:
I didn't see him cutting any stones with string...
The experiment was how to easily move a stone not cutting big stones. So yeah you shouldn't see this. Do you go to Burger King and complain they don't serve Indian food?

Quote:
How does the shoe fit now that its on the other foot?
Always great to ask why or how. More depth of knowledge increasing understanding. What we see here is one version of how this could have worked. He's moving about 80-90% of the large objects. The very large 300 ton objects are a good question. And it'd be interesting to see this work expanded to see if those sorts of objects can be handled in a similar fashion.

One thing you have to admit is here we have a man moving a larger than average pyramid size stone all by himself. Which means we should not discount humans. Unfortunately there are no aliens willing to step forward and show us how to move pebbles let alone a 10 ton monolith.

Last edited by BrianK on 21-Mar-2012 at 08:53 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Mar-2012 20:57:38
#1624 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
You are making blind assumptions. To use (the) Nimrod's favorite phrase: "orders of magnitude". He's shown moving a maybe 3 ton stone on logs on a flat surface a few feet. Show me a 20+ ton stone on logs on a rocky irregular surface, uphill and across a river.
If you watch the video and read the pages there's the 15 ton barn that was moved. Seems to me to be compelling evidence for your 20 ton stone question. A bit later is the 19,400 pound block being stood on end, aka 9.5 tons. He's certainly getting the math right as 128 cubic feet of concrete would weigh 19,200 pounds. At least according to the road engineer just down the hall. One of the nice things about this experiment is it is approachable. Why don't you go try this? For example perhaps he lied and object is a hollow foam box painted to look like concrete.

How much do the pyramid stones weigh? Turns out most are 2.5 Tons - under the 3 ton stone he's rolling by himself. http://www.unmuseum.org/kpyramid.htm

Epic fail here BrianK! The key word was averaging 2.5 tons. They use small stones to hide the stepped nature of the big stones.

Quote:

Quote:
I didn't see him cutting any stones with string...
The experiment was how to easily move a stone not cutting big stones. So yeah you shouldn't see this. Do you go to Burger King and complain they don't serve Indian food?

A poor analogy.

Quote:
Quote:
How does the shoe fit now that its on the other foot?
Always great to ask why or how. More depth of knowledge increasing understanding. What we see here is one version of how this could have worked. He's moving about 80-90% of the large objects. The very large 300 ton objects are a good question. And it'd be interesting to see this work expanded to see if those sorts of objects can be handled in a similar fashion.

One thing you have to admit is here we have a man moving a larger than average pyramid size stone all by himself. Which means we should not discount humans. Unfortunately there are no aliens willing to step forward and show us how to move pebbles let alone a 10 ton monolith.

As you had failed, as noted above, I repeat my question.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Mar-2012 21:01:37
#1625 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120320/NEWS0201/303200034/TN-science-bill-protects-teachers-who-allow-debate-over-evolution

So, indeed, only 'approved' science is taught. More proof of the system that only supports the status quo... I don't care that this article is focused on religious overtones, its really bigger than that.

No it's not bigger than that. People want to teach belief over science. Belief is the acceptance of something without evidence. Science is the acceptance of something only after it has been evidenced. This are significantly different philosophical concepts. The debate here is one that is properly tackled in philosophy or speech classes not the science class.

We see no one attempting to teach Astrology, for example. And we don't see diverse creation thought being taught either. Instead they focus on a Christian version of Creation. I'd love them to teach all creation stories - Islam, Norse, Navajo, etc. Though that's not what's happening either.

The real story here clearly is not evolution versus creationism. The real story here is are we going to teach our kids science or something non-scientific and falsely claim it is scientific.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Mar-2012 21:06:31
#1626 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
Epic fail here BrianK! The key word was averaging 2.5 tons. They use small stones to hide the stepped nature of the big stones.
You were worried about 3 tons and about 1/2 the pyramid is less than that. And we later see 10 tons being moved which even more are under that. My point still stand we need them to test even larger stones.

Quote:
A poor analogy.
It's an excellent analogy. The experiment was moving stones not cutting. Your demand that this guy cut stones is unrealistic and about as useful as asking for Matar Paneer at your local Burger King.

Quote:
As you had failed, as noted above, I repeat my question.
Failed at what? Here we have demonstrated construction methods of stones that were larger than the average pyramid stone and the guy's recreating stonehedge with stones of the same weight by himself. Wow!

You can drive out to his field, look for tire tracks, see it done, etc. As always we can further evidence something by repeating the experiment or doing experiments in other ways.

Heck I offered you to pay me my time and I'll build you a pyramid using this methods. It's amazing how money makes this all the easier. Hint it worked that way in Egypt too.

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Mar-2012 21:33:50
#1627 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
He's shown moving a maybe 3 ton stone on logs on a flat surface a few feet.
And in doing so has shown that it is possible for one man to move a 3 ton stone easily by making correct use of the power of his mind. What has yet to be shown is a flying saucer teleporting rocks in the same manner.

Quote:
As your saying goes: "with extra-ordinary claims must come extra-ordinary evidence". Result = none.
Firstly, there is nothing extraordinary in the idea of human stonemasons having an ability to cut and work stone. They have had a lot of practice at it, going right back to the earlies days of flint knapping. Second, it doesn't matter how long you spend with your eyes closed, your fingers in your ears, and shouting "I can't hear you." the fact remains that this demonstration is far more evidence than you have been able to bring to the table. All of the relevant information is freely available, and the experiment is repeatable by anybody who cares to try. This is in direct contrast with your own assumption, which has no reproducability, no evidence and no historical record, only the assertion that since you were not there personally, to see that there were no little green men, then the answer must be LGM.

Quote:
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120320/NEWS0201/303200034/TN-science-bill-protects-teachers-who-allow-debate-over-evolution So, indeed, only 'approved' science is taught. More proof of the system that only supports the status quo...
I assume that the teachers in Tennessee will also be giving equal time to teaching the "stork" theory of human conception in biology classes. Has it ever occured to you that there may be a reason why phlogiston chemistry is not taught in schools? All that the teachers in Tennessee have achieved is to guarantee that future scientific advances will not be made in Tennessee, and if this spreads, not even in USA.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

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olegil 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 6:01:33
#1628 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@BrianK

I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Lou doesn't believe in inductive logic (premise A: one man can raise a 10 ton stone on end and premise B: 2 men can move a barn cannot possibly lead to premise C: a few thousand men can stack a pyramid). At the same time he has no problem leaping to great conclusions without ANY supported evidence: The aliens did it.

I really like the rolling road this guy has made. There is nothing to suggest you couldn't roll something much larger as long as you made a flat surface and had the manpower to move wooden blocks.

How to cut the stone is obviously an intriguing problem. But the difference between one man: a few feet and thousands of men: hundreds of miles is simply one of scale.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 11:23:24
#1629 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@olegil

Quote:
I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Lou doesn't believe in inductive logic (premise A: one man can raise a 10 ton stone on end and premise B: 2 men can move a barn cannot possibly lead to premise C: a few thousand men can stack a pyramid). At the same time he has no problem leaping to great conclusions without ANY supported evidence: The aliens did it.

I really like the rolling road this guy has made. There is nothing to suggest you couldn't roll something much larger as long as you made a flat surface and had the manpower to move wooden blocks.

How to cut the stone is obviously an intriguing problem. But the difference between one man: a few feet and thousands of men: hundreds of miles is simply one of scale.

The rolling road is cool. There have been others. Someone made a curved road and used a square bike tire. The result is a nice smooth ride. And it should be it's just inverted from the way we think of round tires and flat roads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wheel

Lou did raise a good question - how does he use these round roads for a hill. And I say the question is good because there's probably an angle where the round road doesn't work as well, or perhaps at all. However, his answer is bad here for the reason you indicated - a failure in inductive reasoning. The guy picked a block up and placed it on top of another. This is a movement of the block at a 90 degree angle. Induction says if he can move a block at 0 degrees and at 90 degrees then a subset of the two angles, eg a hill, is tackleable in that same fashion.

Indeed if the Egyptians used this method the rest is simply a question of scale. 15 tons were moved by 1 man. It's failure to believe 1 man couldn't move the 2.5 ton average block size. 1 man picked a many ton block up 90 degrees. A hill is angle then that. 1 man moved tens of tons at once over 600'. Making the block travel 150 miles is simply putting 1 foot in front of another.

How to cut block is an interesting problem. Though Lou's completely wrong asking a conclusion of that out an experiment never meant to test that.

Last edited by BrianK on 22-Mar-2012 at 11:25 AM.
Last edited by BrianK on 22-Mar-2012 at 11:24 AM.

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olegil 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 11:39:32
#1630 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@olegil

Why is cutting granite a problem?

Because it contains quartz, which is hard as bugger-all the egyptians had.

How could you then cut granite?

Well, why not use quartz, then? Seeing as it's harder than granite. Turns out quartz sand sprinkled between a copper saw blade and a granite block will grind down the non-quartz elements of granite. It has been shown that with copper tools and quartz sand you can cut and drill granite, forming exactly the same shapes we find on any ancient egyptian monument.

This would obviously have worn down the copper tools, but it reduces the problem to one of time and money. Obviously egyptians had neither time nor money, so aliens must have assisted.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 11:48:56
#1631 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@BrianK

I used to get all sorts of questions about how a man who isn't particularly fit (me, at 117kg) could bike over a thousand km in a week (personal best, 1204km in 9 days). Same thing, really. You get up in the morning and start cycling, and you don't stop until you've gotten to where you wanted to go.

People who do any sort of long distance cycling look at me and say "so?", as they've already cycled 300km before lunch, while people who don't cycle more than a few km if at all think it must involve some sort of magic. The difference between the two world views is extreme.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 13:50:47
#1632 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@olegil

Quote:
People who do any sort of long distance cycling look at me and say "so?", as they've already cycled 300km before lunch, while people who don't cycle more than a few km if at all think it must involve some sort of magic. The difference between the two world views is extreme.

I agree. A similar story is July 5th, 2011 I walked by first mile. Yet I was able to build myself up to running a 1/2 marathon by Oct 28. Sure not fast, just under 3 hours, and lost 43 pounds now. There is a serious prespective change. A 3 mile run is an 'appetizer' run now. When people tell me they can't, 90% of the time it's their head holding them back.

As for pyramids they're like any other building project. They can be as big and complex as the finances allow. Certainly aliens or fairies or dragons could have built them too. However, we have no evidence that any of those 3 actually did it. Lou rejects a guy for moving 15 tons by himself using wood and stone as having any possiblity. Yet Lou accepts that an unknown entity flew an unknown amount of light years and used an unknown technology to move some boulders around for unknown reasons? Things That Make Ya Go Hmm

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 13:51:47
#1633 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120320/NEWS0201/303200034/TN-science-bill-protects-teachers-who-allow-debate-over-evolution

So, indeed, only 'approved' science is taught. More proof of the system that only supports the status quo... I don't care that this article is focused on religious overtones, its really bigger than that.

No it's not bigger than that. People want to teach belief over science. Belief is the acceptance of something without evidence. Science is the acceptance of something only after it has been evidenced. This are significantly different philosophical concepts. The debate here is one that is properly tackled in philosophy or speech classes not the science class.

We see no one attempting to teach Astrology, for example. And we don't see diverse creation thought being taught either. Instead they focus on a Christian version of Creation. I'd love them to teach all creation stories - Islam, Norse, Navajo, etc. Though that's not what's happening either.

The real story here clearly is not evolution versus creationism. The real story here is are we going to teach our kids science or something non-scientific and falsely claim it is scientific.

The real story is that science is filtered. End of story.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 14:00:15
#1634 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@olegil

Quote:
How could you then cut granite?

Well, why not use quartz, then? Seeing as it's harder than granite. Turns out quartz sand sprinkled between a copper saw blade and a granite block will grind down the non-quartz elements of granite. It has been shown that with copper tools and quartz sand you can cut and drill granite, forming exactly the same shapes we find on any ancient egyptian monument.

This would obviously have worn down the copper tools, but it reduces the problem to one of time and money. Obviously egyptians had neither time nor money, so aliens must have assisted

Good postulate. And easily evidenceable. You, Lou, or I should be able to conduct that experiment.

Also, the pyramids are not exclusively granite. There are limestone blocks. Though because limestone is softer than granite everything used to cut granite will work for limestone too. The other plus is that it'll cut limestone either faster. (Lou don't be afraid of induction.) I suspect the Egyptians discovered easier ways to work limestone too because it does so easily split.

For example, Khafre has the casing stones made out of granite. Though most of the pyramid is limestone.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 14:08:29
#1635 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
The real story is that science is filtered. End of story.

You had mentioned the bluring of lines of what people mean by science. So might want to be a bit careful to ensure you're talking about 'science' or the 'scientific community'. Science is not filtered, it can't be by definition. What you mean to say is the scientific community filters and favors certain science. This really is a complaint about the politic of the people involved doing science, but not science itself. Because more than 2 people are doing work it's a truism that politic always plays a role. However even with that filtering and politic in the community; science (proper) has always won out. Why? Because science is postulates and evidences. When the quality and quantity of evidence is huge enough it collapses any filter of the community. Again do some reading of Karl Popper and Thomas Kuhn. They did quite a bit of thinking about the politic in community and the shift of scientific paradigms.

When we're talking school kids IMO we filter everything else why should this be any different? For example, you certainly wouldn't throw a Kindergarden a copy of War and Peace on the first day then flunk him because he didn't complete a 30 page dissertation. Likewise it's makes little sense to introduce the complexities of a philosphical debate between evidence and belief in a class that's about evidence and before the individual is ready for those discussions. And once the individual is ready to 'Teach the Debate' then it should be in a class meant to do that. Schools have classes for debate such as debate, comparative writing, and speech.

Last edited by BrianK on 22-Mar-2012 at 03:08 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 22-Mar-2012 at 03:06 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 22-Mar-2012 at 02:13 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 14:10:58
#1636 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
He's shown moving a maybe 3 ton stone on logs on a flat surface a few feet.
And in doing so has shown that it is possible for one man to move a 3 ton stone easily by making correct use of the power of his mind. What has yet to be shown is a flying saucer teleporting rocks in the same manner.

Quote:
As your saying goes: "with extra-ordinary claims must come extra-ordinary evidence". Result = none.
Firstly, there is nothing extraordinary in the idea of human stonemasons having an ability to cut and work stone. They have had a lot of practice at it, going right back to the earlies days of flint knapping. Second, it doesn't matter how long you spend with your eyes closed, your fingers in your ears, and shouting "I can't hear you." the fact remains that this demonstration is far more evidence than you have been able to bring to the table. All of the relevant information is freely available, and the experiment is repeatable by anybody who cares to try. This is in direct contrast with your own assumption, which has no reproducability, no evidence and no historical record, only the assertion that since you were not there personally, to see that there were no little green men, then the answer must be LGM.

....blah blah blah...

Quote:

Quote:
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120320/NEWS0201/303200034/TN-science-bill-protects-teachers-who-allow-debate-over-evolution So, indeed, only 'approved' science is taught. More proof of the system that only supports the status quo...
I assume that the teachers in Tennessee will also be giving equal time to teaching the "stork" theory of human conception in biology classes. Has it ever occured to you that there may be a reason why phlogiston chemistry is not taught in schools? All that the teachers in Tennessee have achieved is to guarantee that future scientific advances will not be made in Tennessee, and if this spreads, not even in USA.

People who stop questioning science become engineers.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 14:13:59
#1637 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
People who stop questioning science become engineers.

Oh sure now you're a UFO Engineer. Right.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 16:37:49
#1638 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
People who stop questioning science become engineers.

Oh sure now you're a UFO Engineer. Right.

Look in the mirror. I'm the one coming up with "postulates" here...

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 16:38:59
#1639 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

How about a 100,000 ton stone like pictured http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXsdNiFac8w at 7 minutes into the video?

Riddle me that one....

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Mar-2012 19:06:02
#1640 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
How about a 100,000 ton stone like pictured at 7 minutes into the video?
Riddle me that one....

First question is that stone really 100K tons? The one in the image is clearly not 100K tons. The dimensions and density of that stone don't align with the author's presented value. Take a look at this Largest cut stones The largest one listed here, which is larger in all dimensions than the one they showed in the image is 1,200 tons. So do we take the evidence of density*dimension which shows the weight to be 1%, at best, of that the presenter claimed?

If the question is about real stones then we certainly need to consider the real weight. I'd say we have enough difference here that we'd want to verify whose version is corrrect. Science's determiniation of density*size for weight or the presenter. We could do this through statistical material sampling.

So, if I may change your wording a bit let's ask the heaviest monolithic stones moved. If we see the list of heaviest stone we're talking at most 2K tons. What we'd need to do is create postulates and evidence. Aliens is certainly a postulate - now you just have to invite them to show up and provide the evidence. Others are usage of teams of workers with levers, using other materials like sand and wood to aid the movement and journey. One would have to pay, most likely, a team to test various postulates and determine if these possible combinations could move it.

What we know is 1 guy can move 15tons. It's been demonstrated. The question I see here is how does this scale. Is it linearly? Logrithmically? Some other method? We'd have to try different things and see what happens. Experimentation is a wonderful thing.

First, we know the alien experiments failed as they didn't bother to show up. People can show up. We need money. So if you collect the money I'll collect the bodies and we can build some 1K ton objects and see if ropes, wood, stone can move it.

EDIT -
Another way to approach this is what is the largest monolith ever moved by man and how did they move it. Largest Monoliths ever Turns out there are some here we can't know for sure - For example Ramses II. We're asking how they might have moved that in Egypt. We dont' have direct knowlege. So then what do we have direct knowledge of ? Thunder Stone was moved by people. It was a great boulder of 1500 tons, moved in 1768. It was dragged over frozen ground, put on a metal sled on top of spheres, people used blocks and tackles to push and pull it. No animals nor machines were used to move it. 6KM isn't far compared to 150 miles but again if one can go 6KM then 150 miles is merely a matter of time and resources.

We can look at other things in history such as in the middle 1500s the Obelisk at the Vatican is ~350 tons. It was again placed by manpower. It was lifted by a crane. A wood one! Steel came ~200 years later during the Industrial Revolution.

Last edited by BrianK on 22-Mar-2012 at 07:30 PM.

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