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      /  Nibiru, what if ? - part 2
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PosterThread
Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 20-Jul-2012 20:14:27
#2221 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
Yet another example of how light can and does push...and pushes off when emitted.
I have never denied that heat and light energy can have an effect, just as I have never denied the existence of electromagnetic energy. Unlike you however I am also aware of the quantity of energy. For example, the Pioneer probe is currently travelling at approximately 12.046 km/sec. The discrepancy in acceleration is in the order of 8.74±1.33x10^-10 m/sec^2. That is a small figure even in comparison with the deceleration forces applied to the probe by friction losses due to the density of the medium through which it is travelling. Once again the concepts of scale evade you by several orders of magnitude.

Once again I stand by my implications.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Jul-2012 1:35:44
#2222 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
More specifically: radiation pressure
Not so surprisingly accounts for but a smidge of the total trajectory. The dominate force on the problems is that embuded from gravity slingshotting.

Quote:
Yet another example of how light can and does push...and pushes off when emitted.
Certainly an example of how light push/pull is at action. I don't think anyone here stated light can't do that. We said, simply, that light isn't the dominate force. This effect accounted for a very minor change in trajectory.

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Jul-2012 11:18:16
#2223 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
Once again I stand by my implications.
If the owner of this vehicle were to switch on all of his lights, the current drawn from his generator would probably stall his engine, regardless of any motion the vehicle may or may not have. What it would not do is propel the vehicle backwards at warp speed. The levels of thrust provided by even an array like this one is simply too small

Last edited by Nimrod on 21-Jul-2012 at 03:20 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Jul-2012 17:39:42
#2224 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Nimrod

Surely you don't mean to indicate amount of force counts for anything.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Jul-2012 18:03:13
#2225 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

When will you stop living up to your username?
You mention velocity, then bring up acceleration but don't give a direction. Apparently, you're quite the rocket scientist...

Obvisiously the NASA engineers measured a difference...because it's an acceleration and not a fixed velocity, the velocity and direction changed significantly enough over the course of the years merely from heat from a small part of the craft.

It was measurable.

If they had sent a hunk of ice into space, this problem wouldn't exist. They didn't.

Ofcourse, I do understand you bending over backwards to make it seem insignificant despite it being significant enough to actual scientists to be called an anomoly and labelled as an unexpected 'graviational' source.

Afterall, you'll do anything to debunk (usually by mere proclamation and not actual facts) anything I have to say.

Last edited by Lou on 21-Jul-2012 at 06:04 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Jul-2012 18:51:10
#2226 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
Ofcourse, I do understand you bending over backwards to make it seem insignificant despite it being significant enough to actual scientists to be called an anomoly and labelled as an unexpected 'graviational' source.

You are intermixing two different uses of significant making this statement, at best, fairly worthless.

The first significance, used by Nimrod and you labeled 'insignificant', is a comparision of the forces generated via heat of the internal workings of the vessel itself versus the external forces moving the vessel. In this case the minor amount out of alignment of the vessel.

The second significaance, used by NASA and you labeled 'significant enough', is the work to determine why the minor out of alignment happened.

Being inconsistent here and equating one to the other generates a fairly non-sensical response.

I think this is what you might be trying to say is.
While the alignment change was fairly insignificant it was important enough to scientists to determine why evidence didn't align with a gravitational only postulate.



Let's look at some rough estimates. Pioneer 9 was launched in 1972. It was 8 years later as it approached Saturn when it was noticed that the probe was out of place. It was after the probe travelled 8 Billion miles when it was noticed it was off by roughly 300 inches squared per day. So let's take the average time of 8 Billion miles per 8 years and we find it traveled 1 Billion miles. Now divide 1 Billion by Days in the year (365) and we get about 2.7 Million miles of travel a day.

I think the difference of 300 inches squared out of every 3Million miles is a fairly insignificant effect from the force itself. Turned out the problem wasn't our misunderstanding of gravity. (Which BTW you've made up most of the thread failing to show gravity is misunderstoond.) The problem was our misunderstanding of all forces at play on and within the object itself.


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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 21-Jul-2012 20:11:56
#2227 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
You mention velocity, then bring up acceleration but don't give a direction
My apologies for that minor oversight, please allow me to clarify. The acceleration was a sunward acceleration of 8.74 m/s/s. That is to say, an acceleration toward the closest and therefore strongest external source of light pressure.

Quote:
It was measurable.
Indeed it was, which is a testament to the abilities of scientists. The same level of accuracy that enabled them to measure the amount of solar energy thrust of 14g on an asteroid with a mass of 68,000,000 tons, as reported here. In fact I think you would be surprised at just how accurately things get measured, as shown in this article from 2010

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 22-Jul-2012 14:17:23
#2228 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Nimrod

Quote:
In fact I think you would be surprised at just how accurately things get measured, as shown in this article from 2010
Nice article thanks.

I had posted above from the links scientists were working on solving a 300 square inch difference per day out of a nearly 3 million miles of travel per day. Talk about accuracy... WoW!

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Jul-2012 14:23:45
#2229 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

Against Lou's predictions the HIggs was found to exist. The question is what now? A number of postulates are falling to the wayside - technicolor theory is all but dead. SuperSymmetry is dying. LINK There is little to go on for next steps. Though I suspect people will get to work creating new ideas.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Jul-2012 14:43:27
#2230 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
Against Lou's predictions the HIggs was found to exist. The question is what now? A number of postulates are falling to the wayside - technicolor theory is all but dead. SuperSymmetry is dying. LINK There is little to go on for next steps. Though I suspect people will get to work creating new ideas.

No.
If you read the detailed articles about what they found, you'd realize the press got PR and in reality it requires further analysis because of a decay they didn't expect.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/higgs-boson-may-not-found-warn-particle-physicists-160943671.html

I predicted the PR announcement, fyi...

Nice try, BrianK...

Last edited by Lou on 23-Jul-2012 at 02:43 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Jul-2012 15:47:02
#2231 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Nimrod

Quote:
In fact I think you would be surprised at just how accurately things get measured, as shown in this article from 2010
Nice article thanks.

I had posted above from the links scientists were working on solving a 300 square inch difference per day out of a nearly 3 million miles of travel per day. Talk about accuracy... WoW!

Yes, be amazed by the accuaracy and ignore the real effect of radiation pressure from a tiny engine on a tiny "spaceship".


Best way to disregard evidence is to ignore it afterall...

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Jul-2012 18:04:28
#2232 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
Yes, be amazed by the accuaracy and ignore the real effect of radiation pressure from a tiny engine on a tiny "spaceship".
Thermal heating caused a very small change in expected path from the gravitational only calculations. The problem wasn't that gravitational was wrong. The problem was the scientists had not properly accounted for all forces in the system. 'Gravity' moved the problem 3million miles... Thermal heating about 300 inches.

Quote:
Best way to disregard evidence is to ignore it afterall...
WTF are you talking about no one ignored anything! Instead they figured out the problem. Certainly you do when you don't get what's going on. Perhaps you need an MRI and make sure there's no drain bamage.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Jul-2012 18:47:55
#2233 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
If you read the detailed articles about what they found, you'd realize the press got PR and in reality it requires further analysis because of a decay they didn't expect.

Good catch Lou - every experiment requires it's own verification and future experiments are mandated. Could this be a Higgs Couplet instead of a particle? Experiments happening to detect spin and other properties are happening Nov/Dec 2012. So we'll certainly know more if this Higgs-like item is even more like what we expect. We are only 4.9sigma certain afterall..

Though the whole idea of looking at evidence brings up a question that you've not satisfactorially answered to date. Got any experiments showing 1sigma (yeah I'm not asking much) that a black hole exists at the center of the earth as your favorite mathematical postulates and person would have us believe?

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Jul-2012 19:50:52
#2234 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
Yes, be amazed by the accuaracy and ignore the real effect of radiation pressure from a tiny engine on a tiny "spaceship".
Thermal heating caused a very small change in expected path from the gravitational only calculations. The problem wasn't that gravitational was wrong. The problem was the scientists had not properly accounted for all forces in the system. 'Gravity' moved the problem 3million miles... Thermal heating about 300 inches.

Quote:
Best way to disregard evidence is to ignore it afterall...
WTF are you talking about no one ignored anything! Instead they figured out the problem. Certainly you do when you don't get what's going on. Perhaps you need an MRI and make sure there's no drain bamage.

Are you really trying to compare the heat/light output of the sun and planets to a tiny engine? Forest from the trees... Bottom line is it all looked like "gravity". That's what's being swept under the rug...

Last edited by Lou on 23-Jul-2012 at 07:53 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Jul-2012 19:52:39
#2235 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
If you read the detailed articles about what they found, you'd realize the press got PR and in reality it requires further analysis because of a decay they didn't expect.

Good catch Lou - every experiment requires it's own verification and future experiments are mandated. Could this be a Higgs Couplet instead of a particle? Experiments happening to detect spin and other properties are happening Nov/Dec 2012. So we'll certainly know more if this Higgs-like item is even more like what we expect. We are only 4.9sigma certain afterall..

Though the whole idea of looking at evidence brings up a question that you've not satisfactorially answered to date. Got any experiments showing 1sigma (yeah I'm not asking much) that a black hole exists at the center of the earth as your favorite mathematical postulates and person would have us believe?

I'll do a Stephen Hawking test. I'll look for light eminating from the center of the earth. Darn, I don't see any, hence there is a black hole at the center of the earth.
This was equally as scientific as his time travel test.

Last edited by Lou on 23-Jul-2012 at 07:54 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 23-Jul-2012 20:22:48
#2236 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
I'll do a Stephen Hawking test. I'll look for light eminating from the center of the earth. Darn, I don't see any, hence there is a black hole at the center of the earth.
This was equally as scientific as his time travel test.

I recommend that neither Hawking nor Lou quit their day jobs and go into stand up.

Quote:
Are you really trying to compare the heat/light output of the sun and planets to a tiny engine?
Strawman on the field flag - I made no comparisons in those posts.

But, what you're trying is a good question. What's the EM between objects and the Gravity between objects and any other forces in the system? What we've measured between planets and the sun turns out that the amount/size of EM < Gravity. Which is why scientists define your solar system as gravity driven.


Quote:
Bottom line is it all looked like "gravity". That's what's being swept under the rug...

Let me make sure I'm following your logic. Scientists postulated a position for the probe based on gravity only. Scientists compared evidence to their postulate and found they didn't match. Scientists then asked why they didn't match. Upon further research scientists said 'Hey there's another force here and we failed to take that force into account'. This resulted in the original 'only gravity' postulated being replaced by an even better postulate which includes the extra force and thereby makes better predictions. AKA they're no longer 300 inches / 3 Million Miles off each day. Lou then says scientists swept it all under the rug by using the better science?

Do you know what the euphism 'swept under the rug' means? It means the scientists covered it up due to embarassment. There's no cover up here. In fact the reason we're talking about it, is it's all out in the open.

Last edited by BrianK on 23-Jul-2012 at 09:03 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 23-Jul-2012 at 08:31 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 24-Jul-2012 15:34:24
#2237 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:

Quote:
Are you really trying to compare the heat/light output of the sun and planets to a tiny engine?
Strawman on the field flag - I made no comparisons in those posts.

But, what you're trying is a good question. What's the EM between objects and the Gravity between objects and any other forces in the system? What we've measured between planets and the sun turns out that the amount/size of EM < Gravity. Which is why scientists define your solar system as gravity driven.

Really? How strong can gravity be if I can overcome it simply by stretching my legs fast enough while standing vertically? By force, it's an acceleration, so when I lose contact with "the earth" I can no longer continue to apply my leg-force that otherwise easily overcomes "the all powerful (NOT) force of gravity". Fact EM is 38 orders of magnitude stronger than gravity. My legs are an order of magnitude stronger than gravity but I am dependent on a surface to push off. You and nimrod pick and choose mis-matched bases(basis') to compare one to the other and you will always do that to make your disinformation seem correct to noobs.

Quote:

Quote:
Bottom line is it all looked like "gravity". That's what's being swept under the rug...

Let me make sure I'm following your logic. Scientists postulated a position for the probe based on gravity only. Scientists compared evidence to their postulate and found they didn't match. Scientists then asked why they didn't match. Upon further research scientists said 'Hey there's another force here and we failed to take that force into account'. This resulted in the original 'only gravity' postulated being replaced by an even better postulate which includes the extra force and thereby makes better predictions. AKA they're no longer 300 inches / 3 Million Miles off each day. Lou then says scientists swept it all under the rug by using the better science?

Do you know what the euphism 'swept under the rug' means? It means the scientists covered it up due to embarassment. There's no cover up here. In fact the reason we're talking about it, is it's all out in the open.

Let me make sure I follow your logic here. 'Gravity' is an acceleration. So you are trying to tell me that an acceleration by any other name cannot be called gravity, correct? Newsflash: force is force despite the source. Yes, I'm a poet.
Better science determined the additional source of radiation pressure. You in your fallacy think 'gravity' is limited to interactions of extremely large scale objects with anything else.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 24-Jul-2012 15:36:10
#2238 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duyf1ol31Bs

Yep, all done with string and sticks!

Last edited by Lou on 24-Jul-2012 at 03:36 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 24-Jul-2012 15:44:48
#2239 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JHX274mMJE

400 million year old hammer

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 24-Jul-2012 16:37:22
#2240 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

Memory foil from Roswell crash has been reverse engineered for some time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitinol

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