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      /  X1000 and OS 4.2
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BigD 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 11-Aug-2011 22:39:24
#201 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6394
From: UK

@jingof

Quote:
Point being, my approach scopes the problem more tightly. Instead of "how do we get X1000 to support widely appealing USPs?", it changes the question to "how do we build a USP for X1000, that bridges us to the next hardware rev... where new USPs would be feasible based on price-point and mobility?"


If I were a proficient programmer I'd jump on the X1000 bandwagon and pledge my support however I have to be realistic that I'm a user and at best a dabbler

I need a manual and a copy of Blitz Basic/Deluxe Paint (or Hollywood) to mess around with and make something interesting now and then. I need Pagestream to make posters for church events and Turboprint to talk to my printer. I can't help bring back these software gems, I would just like to use them again or something similar in the same fun way. I can't risk 1500 for the hope that by rev2.0 the X1000 project will offer us all a USP to justify the expenditure and our debates with old Amigans about its merits! The USP needs to be found now while the world is interested (as they definitely are) and watching. Rev 2 might not get the second chance the A500 turned out to be.

The X1000 needs to be a success and the reason to buy needs to be explained. Heck I've spent more time playing with the OS4.x style windows on the A-Eon website than on an actual OS4.x compatible machine! I've only ever used a OS4.x machine once at the VCF last year in Milton Keynes. It was fun but the Sam440EP crashed running Wipeout 2097 and I have to say I would not invest in the X1000 to play BOH or Quake 2 although both are fun. I really want the X1000 to be a success but can't quite see how to talk it up other than the shear audacity of developing a desktop machine that isn't a cheap x86 compatible in 2011.

Last edited by BigD on 11-Aug-2011 at 10:41 PM.

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sundown 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 11-Aug-2011 22:51:51
#202 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5120
From: Right here...

@BigD

I might add that it would be kind of dumb to put out a new system at a high price & just sit & see what happens. We just need to see whats being planned behind closed doors s/w wise. I do hope there are some surprises waiting in the wings beside Timberwolf.

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jingof 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 12-Aug-2011 0:10:15
#203 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 499
From: Jingo Fet is from "A Galaxy Far, Far Away"

@sundown

Quote:
We just need to see whats being planned behind closed doors s/w wise.

Yes, definitely agree with you. I'm sure A-EON and Hyperion aren't spending this much money and time without a thought out plan. Hopefully, what their plan is, plus any value-add that the community might layer on.. can secure a future for the platform. Kind of in the same manner that the makers of the Video Toaster demonstrated. For example, the Video Toaster was a great application of the hardware and an extremely compelling USP that sold many units into new markets, but Commodore didn't birth that, third parties did.

Obviously, though.. it is different times. The market is much more mature today, and most niches are filled. Finding a huge leverage of a USP like the Video Toaster would be unlikely at best. But, hopefully someone smarter than me, proves me wrong

Last edited by jingof on 12-Aug-2011 at 12:14 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 12-Aug-2011 at 12:10 AM.

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jingof 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 12-Aug-2011 0:44:33
#204 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 499
From: Jingo Fet is from "A Galaxy Far, Far Away"

@BigD

Quote:
If I were a proficient programmer I'd jump on the X1000 bandwagon and pledge my support however I have to be realistic that I'm a user and at best a dabbler

Oh, I definitely understand and agree with your point. The X1000 is not right for most, and its USPs fall short for many end users just looking to run Pagestream to make posters for church events or Turboprint. In your position, I'd feel the same as you, unless I had more money than sense.

Of course Efika, Sam440 and Sam460 are more cost effective solutions that might work better for your purposes... (I dunno, maybe you already have one of those)

Quote:
The USP needs to be found now while the world is interested (as they definitely are) and watching.

It's a catch 22... the world is watching now, because the X1000 is respectable hardware with some degree of innovation. They didn't pay that much attention when Efika or Sam440ep were released.

So it took a more modern offering to gain that attention. But in order to produce the hardware "they" are paying attention to, there must be a significant investment, by people who seek to recoup that investment. That's the rub.

We can't expect A-EON and Hyperion to sell units at a loss, but that would be the only vehicle that would accomplish both of your objectives: (1) to win their attention (2) to build a USP that appeals to your particular demographic.

Unfortunately, I think those 2 propositions are short-term mutually exclusive. That's why I don't think it is possible to do as you suggest, without someone footing the bill.

Quote:
The X1000 needs to be a success and the reason to buy needs to be explained.

And while I'd love to be able to say, here is the right USP now, that justifies the X1000 price point today, that simply isn't possible. It is what it is, and it isn't possible to fundamentally make-over the X1000 now. We can only move forward from here. And doing so requires we accept the starting point we find ourselves at and plot a course forward that leads somewhere other than extinction.

The only "course toward mainstream appeal" that I can see, has a layover at X500. I can't make that leap to mainstream USP without it. And am not sure meanstream is what A-EON and Hyperion are seeking anyway. Although I can't see them complaining about a 90 degree sales trajectory

Finally.. while the following is not a perfect analogy, please bare with me... I remember the first VCRs to come out around 1981. They were over $1000 and few people found that USP compeling, with so few "apps" or tapes available. But enough people bought the $1000 VCRs to allow the $800 VCRs to come out. And then the $600 version and and the $400 version etc. etc.

The "trickle down effect" in computers and consumer electronics has played out many times over the past 40 years successfully. Of course, the Amiga is a very different situation, obviously it is not a bleeding edge introduction without precedents. But with careful planning, I still think the "trickle down effect" could be applied to "get there from here".

Of course, I could be wrong, but other than forfeiture or maybe just break-even and out, I don't see a lot of other choices.

Last edited by jingof on 12-Aug-2011 at 12:55 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 12-Aug-2011 at 12:53 AM.

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Rose 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 12-Aug-2011 8:40:27
#205 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@jingof

Quote:
Finally.. while the following is not a perfect analogy, please bare with me... I remember the first VCRs to come out around 1981. They were over $1000 and few people found that USP compeling, with so few "apps" or tapes available. But enough people bought the $1000 VCRs to allow the $800 VCRs to come out. And then the $600 version and and the $400 version etc. etc.


This is more like VHS vs. Betamax. And Amiga isn't even Betamax now, it's V2000

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thinkchip 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 12-Aug-2011 15:00:29
#206 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 1177
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

@jingof

To be perfectly honest, buying an NG Amiga doesn't make sense right now at any price. Even if the computer were free, I can't do what I want with it. I can't play my favorite games: CIV 4, Alpha Centauri, SC4. I spend a lot of time playing Hoyle card games and I can't even do that. There's nothing as polished as Visual C++ on the Amiga. But I keep buying them and plan on buying an X1000. Price doesn't matter much. I guess I have the same hopes that I had when I bought my first Amiga, an A1000. Something about them appeals to me, probably the simplicity of the OS. Recently I tried to sell my micro, a complete system. The highest I could get is around $250. If you take away the value of the case, hard drive, and CDROM, I'm basicly throwing in the motherboard for free. I don't think I'll be selling it.

People are buying Playstations, Wii's, high-power PC's. I don't see how Amiga can come close to matching them. I still think Amiga had an opportunity with hand-held devices, which they lost to apple. Apple has used some clever marketing strategies to become an economic phenomenon. Their sales are in the billions, comparable to the oil companies. I remember when they were in trouble and going the way of the Amiga. If Amiga would have had Steve Jobs, it could have turned out different.

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jingof 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 12-Aug-2011 22:21:02
#207 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 499
From: Jingo Fet is from "A Galaxy Far, Far Away"

@thinkchip

Quote:
But I keep buying them and plan on buying an X1000


I completely agree with your sentiments.. I'd really like to see the amiga stage a comeback, even though I recognize it is a major uphill battle, and most detached consumers would feel like.. "what, a computer for the 80's.. why do I want that at 4x the price!?"

If things go badly and the naysayers are proven correct, I guess we'll all have to accept that. But, I've already paid for my X1000, and I have 25 years of software development skills to contribute in spare time to help address some of the shortcomings.. So, I plan on doing my part to change that outcome, if feasible.

Last edited by jingof on 12-Aug-2011 at 10:28 PM.

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BigD 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 13-Aug-2011 11:35:29
#208 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6394
From: UK

@jingof

Quote:
I've already paid for my X1000, and I have 25 years of software development skills to contribute in spare time to help address some of the shortcomings.. So, I plan on doing my part to change that outcome, if feasible.


Fair play mate, I admire your passion and determination.

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Mechanic 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 13-Aug-2011 14:44:50
#209 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@jingof

Quote:
I've already paid for my X1000, and I have 25 years of software development skills to contribute in spare time to help address some of the shortcomings.. So, I plan on doing my part to change that outcome, if feasible.


Fair play mate, I admire your passion and determination.


Me too. And that's why....

It's not all about X1000.

You need to think of this computer for what it is. A development platform for the future
that may appeal to people wanting a full size ATX motherboard for their own reasons.

A beginning. A tool for future products useful to many wanting such a computer. (Like me.)
A large foundation upon which smaller structures of more specialized components can be
built with compatibility among them all. So it is not the 'end all', rather the start all.

Maybe the next product will be two products. One by A-EON, the other by Acube. Perhaps
a CD64 and less populated motherboard with Xmos chip doing one or two specialized functions.
And if all the products share a common heritage then compatibility among them will be much
easier to achieve.

Road map? First build the road by making a road building machine. Don't go out into the
'sticks', build a house, and then HOPE the road will come past your front door.

I have one Sam right now and it will be working side by side with whatever comes next.
Doing the jobs it is suited for and putting a smile on my face.

My Amiga future is looking very bright indeed.


Last edited by Mechanic on 13-Aug-2011 at 02:46 PM.

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BigD 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 13-Aug-2011 15:34:42
#210 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6394
From: UK

@Mechanic

Good synopsis with one issue. The X1000 needs to be a success 1st and I thought we were talking about how to make it a success? I don't now how many they need to sell to break even, but hear are some must haves for a bigger launch;

1) A strategy of key software ready for launch.
2) A bundle of software included as standard with the machine.
3) An internet download store for AOS4.x and Classic software that runs simply in an emulation layer.

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Mechanic 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 13-Aug-2011 16:04:58
#211 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@BigD

I do agree with your vision of what is needed for launch.

Probably everybody will disagree as to the ingredients of the recipe.

A chicken AND an egg, but which one goes into the pot first?

Programs and tools more heavy toward development, or favoring general users?

Development tools don't sell very many computers.

How do you make user programs without development tools?

GRRrrrrrrrr!

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Dandy 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 15-Aug-2011 8:05:05
#212 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:

Quote:


Where are e.g. my PPC-native CAE-CAD-CAM-CNC applications then (NewIO, LogicWorks, MaxonCAD, DynaCadd, Cycas, ...)?
Or Maxon Cinema 4D and the like?



What can you do with Cinema 4D you cannot with Blender ?



I don't know Blender - so I cannot tell you.

Quote:

Leo wrote:

Of course, not every single app will get a port/replacement... But most already have, that's for sure.



Is there i.e. a decent 3d CAD program (maschine engineering) for NG Amigas like DynaCadd?

Quote:

Leo wrote:

Now, if you're waiting for every single 68k app to have a port, you can wait forever... Just like MacOS would still be classic, XP would still be DOS-based, and Linux would still run Linux 0.1 apps...



I'm not expecting each and every application to be ported from 68k to PPC - but I'd say there should be at least one good native app for each field of activity for NG Amigas to be of good use.

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Dandy 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 15-Aug-2011 9:27:57
#213 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@jingof

I have to ask the same question as I always do at this point; What is the USP - unique selling point?



The USP might differ from person to person.
For me it is that it is an Amiga and has enough power to meet all my needs in the next years.

Quote:

BigD wrote:

An Amiga for the sake of it just to load OS4.x in this day and age just won't cut it I'm afraid.



I want to use it for serious work and have enough old software to start with.
Maybe I even can get some of the old apps ported and overhauled...

Quote:

BigD wrote:

I have told my old Amiga owning friends about the X1000 too but it doesn't get too far beyond the fact it costs 1500 and the A500/A1200 machine they remember was an affordable machine with great software!!!!



You seem to ignore the fact that the A1X1k has not been announced for end users, but for developers and geeks.

Quote:

BigD wrote:

They seldom even remember 'Workbench'.



That might be due to the fact that their prference was playing games from bootable floppy disks instead of caring about how the maschine really works...

Quote:

BigD wrote:

We live in an age where people shell out for software i.e. Mac version of Maya at 3,050 but not for hardware.



With "people" you appearently mean end users?
Please keep in mind the A1X1k is not aimed at them!

Quote:

BigD wrote:

The Amiga will soon have cool hardware but still no software to shout home about!



To me it seems logical that to write powerful software you need the powerful hardware to test it on first.

Quote:

BigD wrote:

What exactly is going to entice the old Amigans back?



You should ask this question to the old Amigans who already left the scene...

Quote:

BigD wrote:

Does the Amiga even plan to have an App store type arrangement to buy Classic games /software?



Who cares about AInc - or whom are you here referring to with "Amiga"?
I don't need an "app-store".
I have all the Amiga apps I bought since 1988 stored in my locker.
If that's not enough there's still AmiNet or Os4depot - both don't cost a cent.

Quote:

BigD wrote:

Shall I buy a 1500 black slab



I have really no idea what "black slab" means...


Quote:

BigD wrote:

or buy Angry Birds for my MAC/PC/Smart Phone? That's the question most consumers ask themselves while saving up for specialised software



Are you serious? They are saving money for "specialised software" and ask themslves if they should buy " Angry Birds", which is just a stupid jump'n'grunt game?

How does that fit together?
Reminds me of the shortest Opel-Manta joke: "There's a Manta parking in front of the University..."


Quote:

BigD wrote:

or surfing the internet on a generic computer



I never asked myself such weired questions while surfing the web...

Quote:

BigD wrote:

...or smartphone.



I prefer surfing the web on a real computer sitting at my desk. This is due to my advanced senescence and degenerated eyesight.

Quote:

BigD wrote:

Amiga needs to think up something new like the App Store, Chrome, Tablets that work



Whom do you mean with "Amiga"? AInc?
I don't like the idea of scams or incompetence being involved in the Amiga platform.

Furthermore app stores, Chrome and tablets isn't something I would necessarily call "new"...

Quote:

BigD wrote:

or a computer that 'Just works' preferably mobile and in a trendy case, booting instantly!



While you prefer mobile, I prefer a desktop (or tower) "that 'Just works' in a trendy case, booting instantly"...

Quote:

BigD wrote:

Most of these new ideas have been either thought up or most of the time just implemented well by Apple. The Amiga seemingly just fights for survival in the hobby section of computer weekly. What's the solution? What is the USP for the X1000 we should be telling our friends about?



Who demanded you to tell your friends about an USP of the A1X1k?
As long as they are neither developers, nor geeks, you don't need to tell them anything at all!

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Dandy
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Dandy 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 15-Aug-2011 9:38:40
#214 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@SpanishMan

... it's about drumming up interest with our friends and ex-Amigans



No - it is not.
Why is it so hard to understand that the A1X1k is aimed at developers and geeks - and not at end users?

Quote:

BigD wrote:

and at the moment I don't have a lot to say other than ...



At the moment you don't have anything to say.

Quote:

BigD wrote:

Give me an alternative argument to use and I'll use it.
...



Here you go:

"The A1X1k is aimed at developers and geeks - not at end users!"

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thinkchip 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 15-Aug-2011 15:14:06
#215 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 1177
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

@Mechanic

All of the ports that I've tried, Blender for example, are broken or halfway done. Or old versions that nobody cares about any more. Get something done and polish it up nice. The days of good solid software, like DeluxePaint and some of the other old workhorses, are long gone.

Last edited by thinkchip on 15-Aug-2011 at 03:17 PM.

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Mechanic 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 15-Aug-2011 17:57:41
#216 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@thinkchip

Quote:

thinkchip wrote:
Get something done and polish it up nice.


+1

Another + point of the X1000 toward your post is the fact that Hyperion
is a involved partner, both financially and time invested, with a reason
to do what you would like to see done.

Acube also has time and money invested in our system and I think they will
also benefit by 'THE COMPANY' showing it is very committed to taking the
platform forward.

Weather any of this matters to developers.......you would have to ask them
for their view. IMO, , , it does matter.

Quote:

Or old versions that nobody cares about any more.


I have been using Linux since RedHat released it's first boxed distro, so
15+ years(?). In that time many great programs have fallen by the wayside
simply because the developers have lost interest, or grown tired of trying
to keep up with the ever changing hardware landscape. JAZZ++ comes to mind.



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BigD 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 15-Aug-2011 20:34:34
#217 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6394
From: UK

@Dandy

Quote:
"The A1X1k is aimed at developers and geeks - not at end users!"


Since the Frieden brothers told me that the X1000 needs to be a success for medium to long term OS4.x development to continue I hope A-Eon & Hyperion know which market they are selling into and factor in the likely break even unit sales required/likely sales number accordingly. It would go without saying that the mainstream tech media is following the X1000 with interest will expect an end-user experience when they test it! I still think to get the maximum impact at launch we need to be aiming at ex-Amigans as well to gain traction. By the time any X500 machine is prototyped this whole A-Eon dream could already be over and the chance to grab a niche/sustainable market share will be over. Hyperion/A-Eon have free publicity from the likes of me and I suggest we all work together to drum up more interest among ex-Amigans and our techie friends!

Last edited by BigD on 15-Aug-2011 at 08:36 PM.

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VT2005EE 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 16-Aug-2011 4:35:53
#218 ]
Member
Joined: 10-May-2007
Posts: 42
From: Unknown

@thinkchip

In my mind, the x1000 is a Mac Pro alternative, which is good enough for me! Saving my bucks....

Quote:

thinkchip wrote:
Mentioning the X1000 in a post is like setting off a stink bomb. However, I read in a blog that the X1000 will have Amiga OS 4.2 when it's introduced. That gives some idea of the timeline. Probably a year away. I could probably come up with the money to buy one now if they were on sale. I'm afraid the current AOS-based computers are too slow for what I want. I'm reluctant to spend a thousand dollars on something not appreciably faster than my micro. So like lots of others I'm waiting and getting older by the year. I can see myself in a rest home with a new X1000 on the desk in front of me, too senile to figure out how to turn on the power.

So, I guess I have two questions: Is the X1000 introduction waiting for 4.2 and is there anything for sale now that is significantly faster than my micro?

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Deniil715 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 16-Aug-2011 11:51:16
#219 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4217
From: Sweden

@BigD

I agree with you that I don't believe the X1000 to be a purely developer's and geek's machine. I would think it also targets, if not completely new users, but at least returners and fence sitters that are not devs or that geeky, just like the target audience for Sam is.

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_ThEcRoW 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 16-Aug-2011 14:13:43
#220 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 832
From: Murcia (Spain)

@Dandy

"Are you serious? They are saving money for "specialised software" and ask themslves if they should buy " Angry Birds", which is just a stupid jump'n'grunt game?"

Since when is Angry Birds a jump'n'run game? .

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