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itix 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 14:26:27
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@eliyahu

Generally it is difficult attract users outside Amiga sphere. It would be cool if MorphOS was covered in some Mac magazine but it is very difficult keep users attracted in a slow pacing Amiga world. And it doesnt help the world is hostile to Amiga -- mostly because Amigans always were hostile to the other world.

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Chain-Q 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 14:31:09
#102 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 824
From: Budapest, Hungary

@amigadave
Answering the original question in the topic: In my country (Hungary), there are actually more MorphOS users than OS4 users (about a dozen and a half vs. 3-4 people). Yet, the MorphOS user's forum is quite a silent place, while the generic-Amiga forum, including OS4 is a lot more active. The X1000 and AmigaOS future topics are burning. But most of the people there are not OS4ers themselves, but eventually daydreaming about their wonder-Amiga, or keep waiting for miracles to happen, arguing about an x86/ARM port, or just driven by nostalgia. Yet, the OS4 forum topics look a lot more active.

On the other hand, seems like MorphOS people just enjoy what they've got, and because it mostly works just fine, and very useable, there are less problems to discuss. The last big buzz in MorphOS world was before the Mac ports, then also about OWB, but both reality since, and works mostly as expected. Even the mid-term future is quite clear (PowerBook), the entry costs are relatively low, so there's really little to talk about... Most new forum discussions are questions of new users, which we already mostly covered with FAQ and howto pages.

While this is only the experience from my country, I see this as a somewhat global trend.

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Zylesea 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 14:49:05
#103 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@kas1e

Quote:

kas1e wrote:
@Zylesea
Quote:

Once 3.0 is out MorphOS team should consider an advert is some Mac magazine - I mean, what's the easiest way to reach Mac hardware owners and telling them their old kit is not useless.


And while someone can found that strange, and maybe you do that post for the laugh, still, that is really way to attract more users, and make at last first steps to try to be "some kind of modern os".

Also not only in macs mags, but in any kind of magazines which cover "alternatives". Just without sticking with all that "only amiga" and "aos3.x api forever". Just as some real alternative for users who do not know (and do not want) to know about all that amiga past.

No, my suggestion was not for a laugh, but pretty serious. Most G4 machines are rathe ruseless for OS X today, but still way to powerful to put them into teh bin. Give tem a 2nd chance with MorphOS. kind of active recycling.
And I also think MorphOS is ready to follow more its own path (well, I will still hang around here and still think Amigaworld is teh right place for OS4/OS68k/MorphOS and AROS all together). I mean all Amigaish systems come from the same background and share pretty much in common, but the rivality would be less, if not all OSes really focused on the same audience/target group.
I think it is more about being conservative or progressive (not political or pos/neg). AOS4 is probably pretty much conservative, while MorphOS is the progressive OS. For me OS4 is too conservative, buzt for others MorphOS may be too progressive. Look if I use OS4 today I just feel that Workbench is limited and outdated and think teh prefs system is a nasty mess. OS4 users using MorphOS probably think the MorphOS prefs are a rip off from OS X and Ambient is a browser like the explorer and ts moan about why that should be "Amiga".

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BrandonLee 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 14:49:52
#104 ]
Super Member
Joined: 15-Dec-2003
Posts: 1355
From: Lisbon, Portugal

@itix

Quote:
Generally it is difficult attract users outside Amiga sphere


It's not difficult, it's borderline impossible.
No one will invest that much money on an "experimental/hobby" machine.
All things being equal (software base and prices), I think anyone trying AOS wouldn't return, but things are not equal... ;)

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kas1e 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 15:22:49
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3549
From: Russia

@Geennam
Quote:

The difference between you and the "happy" AOS4 user is that the "Happy" AOS4 accepts that things are moving slow and appear a little unprofessional. Because they understand that you cannot compare a handful of OS4 coders (doing a excellent job considering the resources) with the >30000 developers and resources of multi billion companies like Microsoft, Google and Apple.


Of course not. I compare os4 programmers with morphos programmers. Of course resources limited (and on morphos as well). But still, mos boots faster, usb2 works faster, 3d is faster. I know all the problems which happens and why all is slow. And beause of it, its a bit irrational for me, why i choice os4 , and not mos.

@zylesea

Quote:

OS4 users using MorphOS probably think the MorphOS prefs are a rip off from OS X and Ambient is a browser like the explorer


Imho none of amigaos4 users (even blind-stiker-followers) think that morphos is a rip off from osx and ambient is a browser like the explorer. We already have "filler", which kind of ambient in early form and not integrated to OS, but no one call it "browser like explorer".

Soon or later, Worbench on aos4 will be also imporved (if developing of os4 will not stops by some of reassons), and in end of all, by one or by another way it will "kind of ambient as well". But its not ambient pluse, its just how any normal desktop-manager done. And no one imho will call it "explorer like". Of course it it will be done slow, unotimized and so on, then sure , users will claim it like this.

Quote:

and ts moan about why that should be "Amiga".

And is not any "amiga", and i am happy that is not amiga, because Amiga dead, and for long time in the past. Its just work starts in basing on aos3.x api, but soon or later if developing will not stops, its all will be forgotten.

I mean its pluse that someone think that morphos (or aos4, or aros) are not amiga. Beause its not, and that is good.

Last edited by kas1e on 28-Oct-2011 at 03:29 PM.

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xeron 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 15:46:26
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2003
Posts: 2440
From: Weston-Super-Mare, Somerset, England, UK, Europe, Earth, The Milky Way, The Universe

@Geennaam

Timberwolf brings more than a browser to OS4.x, it brings the Mozilla framework, which opens the door to a whole bunch of other software.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 15:49:47
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@kas1e

I like the clean look of AmigaOS4, don't wont a blue copy of windows explorer, or freaked out as finder in MacOS, I like how it is original, it like whit old car, your do not wont to destroy it mojo by replacing the metal work.

A system does not get better by adding tones of useless features.

Its like back in the days of Opus5 most people did not use it as a desktop replacement they used it as a kick ass file-manger when they need the extra features.

There is how ever one thing I miss, and that possibility of pasting a window path in to shell window, should be easy to fix if they add it to menu (don't need address bar to do that).

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Oct-2011 at 03:54 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Oct-2011 at 03:52 PM.

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Fab 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 15:59:58
#108 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:

1. OS4 is gorgeous. this is subjective, of course. many prefer the 'look and feel' of MOS, but i really love the window decorations, icon set, widgets, etc. of OS4. i don't particularly care for the appearance of MOS in any of its guises.


All the more subjective that you could use exactly the same themes in MorphOS if you really wanted to. These are just bitmaps and everything is themable.

Quote:

2. workbench uses a spatial metaphor. and i love how different it is to KDE, GNOME, OSX, windows, etc. i love the vocabulary: drawers, not folders; tools, not applications; workbench instead of a desktop. on MOS i feel like i'm using a browser, and i really don't like that. i also like that AREXX scripts for the workbench still work well. that may also be true with ambient, though. i don't know.


Ambient has both spatial and browser modes (see settings->window). It uses browser mode by default, but you can open also a new drawer in a window by pressing alt (or choosing the relevant entry in contextmenu).
As for REXX, Ambient is fully scriptable (views, menus, ...).

Now if you ask me, i find spatial mode absolutely unpractical and i always hated workbench for that (fortunately there was Magellan), along with its useless list mode and poor filemanagement abilities.
Workbench has a lot to catch up with (and this is unrelated to MorphOS or Ambient).

Quote:

3. the community is much, much nicer on the OS4 side. again, this is subjective, but the behavior of some MOS users and developers is a huge turn-off for me. one developer in particular seems obsessed with OS4 and its goings-on, and others are just as snarky. there are OS4 nutters, too, but they don't constantly obsess over or invade the threads of MOS or AROS users.


You missed a great part of the show where some lawyers declared MorphOS illegal and some developers threw huge FUD against MorphOS. but ok, it's the past, but it still happens, sometimes behind the scene. There are things that can't easily be forgotten.

Quote:

for some reason the MOS community pays a tremendous amount of attention to what happens in the OS4 world. most people in the OS4 world just don't really care that much about the MOS world. that's not a negative per se, we just aren't as interested.


Maybe it's just that some people wear blinders and others not, keeping an eye on something that has still quite some relevance to their own hobby. :)

Last edited by Fab on 28-Oct-2011 at 04:06 PM.

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kas1e 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 16:02:14
#109 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3549
From: Russia

@Geennaam

Quote:

That's because they have different priorites. (and MorphOS had a couple of years headstart).


With what i agree, its with "couple of years headstart". That right. At the begining mos-developers even being paid, and for this time all the necessary for the start thinks was done (and after that, everything going slow for them as well).

Quote:

For example, why put all the effort in optimising miniGL and Warp3D when you know that the complete gfx subsytem will be replaced by something a little more modern which support shaders? Just being faster then morphOS is no reason to waste resources on an intermediate solution.


Sure, but as i see, some programmers can optimise some parts just in few days, so, i assume that every programmers can do that. And while , of course, not need to spend all the time on something which abandoned, still, users live with it for how much ? 5 years ? So, for this time i think its still can be worth to loose 2-3 weeks for optimisation , and while users will live on something which will be abandoned, then concetrate on the "big move".


Quote:

USB2 is being worked on and has already seen a huge speed increase. (But it seems that now CrossDOS is the limitting factor).


Not only cross-dos, but also whole RAM: are slow (as Ssolie explain on hp's forum).

Quote:

It's not like you have to wait ages before AOS4 boots. And if Morphos is couple of seconds faster then they probably optimised it because have to reboot a lot.


I do not know who and how setup their windowses, but my winxp boots in something 30-40 seconds till usable desktop (i not have heavy antiviruses or any crappy backgorund monsters, but anyway, aos4 also not have it). And so, for me (for now), my winxp loads the same by speed as aos4. So its very understanable why i say "boots its slower". Because aos4 with comparing with winxp not have not resoruce tracking, not memory protection, not smp support , and boots the same.

Our oses, should boots the same fast as morphos. And only then we can say "yeah, it loads faster".


Quote:

Funny how these minor things are an issue for you while having a well known and recognizable to non amigans browser like firefox is a waste of resources in your eyes. It's a free time project of the friedens, but still it needed additional components added to AOS4 IIRC.


The problem with TW, is that we already wait how much ? 2 years ?:) And we have buggy beta. When next beta will be out , there again will be problems (and that is understanable. So, to summorise, to make TW "cool / fast / amiga-lile" , will need to spend how much time ? 2-3 years more ? While, again, somebody (fab), make gui from sratch which baseed on webkit (alone, for free). What did it mean ? And its our muiowb port can be not so cool in few areas (like blocking of gui , no plugins, no medaplayer), but mos version have all of this. So, i think again, what all of this mean ?:)

But well, if because of TW to intution will be added something intersting (like many sub-levels of menu), then thats good.

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Fab 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 16:03:55
#110 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@Geennaam

Quote:

It's not like you have to wait ages before AOS4 boots. And if Morphos is couple of seconds faster then they probably optimised it because have to reboot a lot.


From MorphOS on my Mac mini (used daily for media and browsing purposes):

Ram Disk:> uptime
18h01 up 47 days, 12:26, load average: 0.73, 0.16, 0.05

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kas1e 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 16:04:18
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3549
From: Russia

@xeron
Quote:

Timberwolf brings more than a browser to OS4.x, it brings the Mozilla framework, which opens the door to a whole bunch of other software.


But all of this should be fast, non-buggy, and intuition-native. Beause pretty possible to have situation as with QT : its almost ready, its cool, very interesting to follow the progress, but its still slow and buggy. So, while in theory we can port big QT apps already, but we not do it, because of what i say.

But in theory, that all of course sounds "soon we will have".

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kas1e 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 16:12:27
#112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3549
From: Russia

@Geennaam

Quote:

It's not like you have to wait ages before AOS4 boots. And if Morphos is couple of seconds faster then they probably optimised it because have to reboot a lot.


Oh .. That what i can call bittering and non-advanced user. I.e. if somebody make something right, then, they do that because something bad, and they can't do it because they want to show their skills and optimisation for the wild ? And its not "couple of seconds", its twice on the peg2. Maybe its peg2 only related, i do not know.


Last edited by kas1e on 28-Oct-2011 at 04:19 PM.

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eliyahu 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 16:19:51
#113 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1957
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@Fab

dave asked for views, and i gave him mine. i understand different people have different views. no problem. you enjoy MOS, i don't. i enjoy OS4, and, i imagine, you don't. there's really no point in trying to 'prove' my preference is 'wrong' or your preference is 'wrong.'

you guys are always doing the hard sell. you don't need to. i know MOS is themeable. so is OS4. if you can get MOS to look exactly like OS4.1u3, then please post a screenshot. i've tried. i also know you can use ambient in a spatial mode. i still prefer workbench. i know MOS has a better USB stack, a better printing architecture, and a more performant 3D solution. i get it. i still prefer OS4.

and lastly, you're right: i wasn't around for the fight. i don't especially appreciate people still fighting a war that ended long ago. it's boring and divisive and unpleasant. people were unhappy with MOS developers, too. but no one on this side of the fence is interested in fighting this any more. the fact that some in the MOS world still want to is a turn-off for me. it's childish. and when i see the same thing among some OS4 fans, i think exactly the same thing. i just don't see it as often.

-- eliyahu

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eliyahu 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 16:25:24
#114 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1957
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@kas1e

Quote:
Oh .. That what i can call bittering and non-advanced user. I.e. if somebody make something right, then, they do that because something bad, and they can't do it because they want to show their skills and optimisation for the wild ? And its not "couple of seconds", its twice on the peg2. Maybe its peg2 only related, i do not know.

the OS4 development team could just as easily use the same initial boot method that MOS does, i.e., loading a compressed image into RAM via DMA. they've chosen -- for the present -- to load kickstart modules discretely. focusing on one area of the OS versus another at any given moment is an engineering decision based on the resources available. i'd love to see my SAM boot more quickly, but then again, the only times i 'reboot' my SAM is by restarting workbench, and that's done with in eight seconds, three of which are because of the prism2 driver reestablishing a connection to my router.

but, no, it's not just related to the pegasos 2. based on what i saw at amiwest, MOS boots noticeably faster regardless of hardware. MOS also restarts ambient noticeably quicker than OS4 restarts workbench, too, so it's not just the IPL of the OS that's faster on MOS.

-- eliyahu

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Fab 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 16:40:47
#115 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:

dave asked for views, and i gave him mine. i understand different people have different views. no problem. you enjoy MOS, i don't. i enjoy OS4, and, i imagine, you don't. there's really no point in trying to 'prove' my preference is 'wrong' or your preference is 'wrong.'


Sure, and i gave mine (with a couple arguments :)). But some precisions were also needed, for a balanced view. :)

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ChrisH 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 17:27:48
#116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@ddni Quote:
What has really held me back from buying MorphOS is the beligerant and bullying MorphOS minority who seem to poison every AmigaOS4 thread.
This nastiness has tainted MorphOS and makes me actively resist adopting it.

This is sad, as when potential customers think of MorphOS they should see the features, benefits and great progammers behind it. I only see bitterness and vile.

I think you hit the nail firmly on the head there. (Of course there were some OS4 nutters bashing MOS too, but at least on AW.net it seemed to me that there was a lot more OS4 bashing going on for far longer, mostly due to a small minority.)

The war may be over (and both sides lost), but I think some people still think the war is going on. At this point you may start playing Zombie by the Cranberries...

@g_kraszewski Quote:
It works much better than bashing competitors

Bashing competitors NEVER worked. It merely makes you look like you have nothing good to say about your own product, and that you are scared of them.

P.S. This is not to say that I didn't (foolishly) take part in OS4 vs MOS flamewar at it's height, but we all make mistakes. :(

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ChrisH 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 17:44:15
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@amigadave
Without wishing to get into the whole OS4 vs MOS thing, I still find AmigaOS4's Workbench (plus Filer for techy stuff) preferable to Wanderer on AROS & Ambient on MorphOS. For example, neither seems to allow icon snapshotting, and nor allow per-folder view settings, as they seem to have adopted Linux-like "single window with automatic layout" file management (which I am not a fan of, personally). I also miss many other things, but if I started listing them it is going to sound like I am bashing AROS & MorphOS, which is not my intention.

I guess you can simply say I prefer the way AmigaOS4 works, compared to AROS & MorphOS.

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ChrisH 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 17:46:46
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@itix Quote:
I am more and more convinced that OS4 users are not our target group. Instead it is more important improve MorphOS for existing users and make it easier to use for new users.

You mean that OS4 users *were* you target group? That seems extremely misguided. Ex-Amigans (and Classic Amigans) should be your targets. OS4 users have already made-up their minds (in general).

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ChrisH 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 17:53:25
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@kas1e Quote:
when i run morphos first time, evertyhing was too different in compare with aos3. It was just a bit more advanced than i expect , and very different in all the areas.

That is an interesting point. For better or worse, Ambient *is* very different from the Workbench that AmigaOS3 users were used to. One the one hand the sales pitch says MorphOS is Amiga-like, on the otherhand the first thing you see looks & feels quite different (plus an apparent obsession with butterflies & the colour blue - neither of which I immediately associated with the old Commodore Amigas).

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rzookol 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 18:03:04
#120 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2005
Posts: 318
From: Poland, Lublin

@ChrisH

Quote:
the colour blue


http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/images/wb_13.gif :)

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