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xeron 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 7:26:57
#21 ]
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Joined: 22-Jun-2003
Posts: 2440
From: Weston-Super-Mare, Somerset, England, UK, Europe, Earth, The Milky Way, The Universe

Quote:
is no original Amiga 68k code in OS4, as it is all rewritten for PPC

this is simply not true. Os4.x is a continuation of the Commodore Amiga os 3.1, with some parts from 3.5. Sure, some components are replaced, but it is definitely a continuation that can be traced right back to os1.x.

just a few months ago, myself and olaf barthal fixed some bugs that dated back to os 2.0!

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pavlor 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 7:28:00
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8915
From: Unknown

@amigadave

Quote:
Again, this is off topic and has little to do with my questions regarding why there are more OS4 users than MorphOS users


I only wanted to show you that some simply believe that OS4 is AmigaOS.

Quote:
They could make the same kind of video as the one you provided a link for, except the branch of AmigaOS that came after Hyperion started working on OS4 would be replaced with the work that the AROS, or MorphOS developers have done since 1994 and the fall of Commodore.


For such video, they would need complete OS3 source codes... even Amiga.Inc hasn´t them in its possession.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 7:29:17
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1829
From: Australia

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@amigadave

Quote:
Anyone who says that AROS and MorphOS are not Amiga systems are only fooling themselves and not anyone else.


Here is answer for your question.

AmigaOS4 is for some people real continuation of their beloved OS, Morphos and AROS only nice other OSs in the broader Amiga family (like pOS in its days).

Quote:
How can they be any less "Amiga" than OS4, except in name only. There is no original Amiga 68k code in OS4, as it is all rewritten for PPC


I really like this video. Can AROS or MorphOS show the same direct connection to the original AmigaOS?

Quote:
Please don't pollute this thread with your opinions about what a "Real" Amiga is, or is not. It is not relevant to my questions.


It is more relevant than you think. Why would someone waste money on inferior A1 and wait another two years for the first OS4 prerelease, when Pegasos with MorphOS is cheaper and offers more features? Why would someone buy SAM with OS4, when he can buy MacMini with MorphOS for fracture of price of SAM?
Don´t search logic in it.


Of course MOS and AROS can show the same sort of connection with original AmigaOS as OS4.x can. The difference being that video was made to suit a purpose, ignoring anything that doesnt. Im sure if someone had a mind to they could make a similar video that shows any of the alternatives in the same light.

As for the original question, Im not convinced there is such a great disparity, In fact most of the sites I frequent would suggest OS4.x has the smallest userbase.
Predominately involve yourself in one particular "world" and it'll appear what that "world" suggests is true. View it from the outside and things may look different.

If there's one advantage os4.x has though it's peoples mental stigmas.

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pavlor 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 7:31:24
#24 ]
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Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8915
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis

Quote:
Im sure if someone had a mind to they could make a similar video that shows any of the alternatives in the same light.


See my previous post.

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xeron 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 7:33:14
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2003
Posts: 2440
From: Weston-Super-Mare, Somerset, England, UK, Europe, Earth, The Milky Way, The Universe

@amigadave

Quote:

They could make the same kind of video as the one you provided a link for, except the branch of AmigaOS that came after Hyperion started working on OS4 would be replaced with the work that the AROS, or MorphOS developers have done since 1994 and the fall of Commodore.


no, they couldn't, because amigaos has been in a source control system since the early 80s right through to today, which means there is a continuous log of changes which can be used to make such a video.

this doesn't make os4 necessarily better, but it is the truth.

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Kicko 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 7:36:31
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 5008
From: Sweden

Why i dont have mos is because i choosed os4 from the start. And it went on using it. Same as many mos users that started with their system. Im not a multiOS user really. I dont have time to upgrade and play with different system. if i had i would probably use both. If os4 didnt appear and there was only classic system and mos i would for sure go for morphos.

However i bought an laptop with windows7 to use for everything else os4 is missing. I also have aros and winue installed on it but i mostly use it under my tv as a mediacenter with xbmc. When summer vacation comes i bring it with me and run winue to make some music (If its rainy and bored). But i dont update amigaos under winuae, mostly just hd-rec. Windows7 updates itself ;)

I just want to concentrate on one main system thats why i use os4. However i do read mos/aros/68k news on AW etc just to see whats new etc, so i get updated :)

EDIT:
If mos was made for A1 in the early times when i had more time i would for sure install a demo and try it out. As amigans are splitted its not strange we have all kind of people that uses their favourite OS. Its just the way it is. Sure i would like all to get together and work on ONE system.

Last edited by Kicko on 28-Oct-2011 at 09:17 AM.

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g_kraszewski 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 7:44:55
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Sep-2010
Posts: 340
From: Unknown

@amigadave

I guess you want to hear some rational arguments, which have driven people to AmigaOS 4 instead of MorphOS. Guess what – there are none.

There is nothing wrong in irrationality. Most of hobbies (including MorphOS, let's say it) are more or less irrational, based on emotions and so on. It only means you cannot convince most of AmigaOS 4 users (or classic Amiga users) to switch to MorphOS basing on technical or money merits.

Being on the scene continuously from 1996 I can give you following summary of "anti-MorphOS" arguments:

1. MorphOS has no Amiga brand. The brand should not be underestimated, because for "late returners" Amiga means their lovely youth, and "MorphOS" has no meaning until they dive into current community. Even if they learn that MorphOS is the most advanced branch, "it is still not Amiga". Maybe irrational, but true.

2. Resentiments of hard community fights in 2000-2005 period. These fights were really nasty at times, including personal insults, extreme flamewars and accusations. Amiga Inc. affair on the one side and Thendic/Genesi affair on the other added a few tons of fuel to the fire. Many people remember it and won't change the side just because they have been involved.

3. "I want a new hardware, not some rubbish taken out of trashcan" - another popular argument against using MorphOS, after it supported Apple hardware. It has some valid points. New hardware comes with warranty usually, buying used one is always risky. Even extreme price difference does not talk to some people. Some also want to express their ego by buying extremely expensive computer similarly to ones buying extremely expensive cars.

4. "I hate Apple" - A bit illogical as buying a second hand, few years old and unsupported machine does not give any money to Apple, but still... Apple is very popular in the States, so most Apple haters are located there as well.

5. Feature gap between AmigaOS 3 and MorphOS is too big. Some people prefer AmigaOS 4 just because Workbench is less advanced than Ambient. Yes, that's true. For a classic user not using Directory Opus Magellan, Ambient is just a too long jump. "Workbench is still Workbench", this sentence is used as one of AmigaOS 4 mottos. It appeals to some. An AmigaOS 4 user said once that deleting files with 'del' key is counterintuitive, as Workbench uses 'amiga + d'. When I've demonstrated that it is configurable in Ambient, and had 'amiga + d' in a minute, he still was not convinced. You can't argue with such arguments.

6. Die-hard classic users also use "all those NG Amigas and clones are just PCs with different processor". They want 68k and AGA. You can do nothing about it, they will buy NatAmi anyway. They do not want a system for everyday use. They have Windows/Linux/MacOS X for this. For their hobby they want 50 MHz and 256 colors on 14" CRT display. And it is fully understandable. They are just not the MorphOS target.

Last edited by g_kraszewski on 28-Oct-2011 at 07:53 AM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 7:48:23
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1829
From: Australia

Im interested in all "flavors", so there's no alterior motive for saying this, and I appologize for being a little off topic, but one thing that always baffled me was some OS4 users being so wishy-washy about AROS.

To elaborate, one arguement I see often is, "AmigaOS4 is the true successor, its a prgression of the AmigaOS3.x sources rewritten for ppc and the OS is improved and more advanced".

All well and good, but some of thesee same people will also use something to the effect of:

"AROS is only an improved rewrite of OS3.1. ergo its not as advanced".

To this I can only say "huh?" :)

Sad thing is I bet I get some people totally missing the point here and trying to justify it further :) At very least I expect some people to use semantics. Let's see.... :)

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xeron 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 7:53:36
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2003
Posts: 2440
From: Weston-Super-Mare, Somerset, England, UK, Europe, Earth, The Milky Way, The Universe

@g_kraszewski
Not everyone who uses OS4 do so for stupid anti-mos reasons. Some of us just like OS4.

Back in 2003, I didn't have any hatred for MOS or MOS users, but I bought an AmigaOne because it seemed like a good upgrade from a 68060 Amiga. Turns out, I got a machine which has served me very well ever since, and I love OS4, so I don't regret it.

What I didn't like, was the immense hostility from some of my online friends because I took the red pill, even though I had nothing against them or their choice, and that really put me off of MorphOS for quite a long time.

So I guess, from 2003 to 2005, while I was an OS4 user more or less on a whim, the hostility between the camps did affect my opinion of the alternatives. From around 2005, when i bought my Pegasos, I stopped caring, but I did still prefer OS4.

Last edited by xeron on 28-Oct-2011 at 07:55 AM.

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g_kraszewski 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:01:12
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Sep-2010
Posts: 340
From: Unknown

@xeron

Not everyone who uses OS4 do so for stupid anti-mos reasons. Some of us just like OS4.

Note that I haven't call any of those reasons "stupid". While they are not based on pure cold logic, they are still valid to me, even if I disagree with them personally.

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afxgroup 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:15:00
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1963
From: Taranto, Italy

because maybe not all MOS users spend their time on forums?? maybe they prefer to do anything else.. you cannot assume that the userbase is higher only because you see many os4 users on the forum.
There is also a lot of people that only read the forums without contribute in any way (i mean reply to posts, ask questions and so on..)

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nikosidis 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:17:44
#32 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 841
From: Norway, Oslo

@amigadave

+ 1

You are spot on. And what would the old Amigas been without the custom chips.

I don't see any custom chips in Amiga hardware today, so to me Amiga hardware is just like any other PC hardware.



Last edited by nikosidis on 28-Oct-2011 at 08:19 AM.

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ddni 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:19:50
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2007
Posts: 818
From: Northern Ireland

I do not own OS4 or MorphOS and I completely missed the "Red Blue wars"

I am a passionate classic user.
From what I have read, both MorphOS and AmigaOS4 seem to be valid and exciting operating systems.
The big distinction for me is simply that MorphOS does not resonate with me as an Amiga.
AmigaOS4x does.

This in itself is not reason enough for me to choose AmigaOS4 over Morphos though.
Given it's feature set MorphOS looks like great fun!

What has really held me back from buying MorphOS is the beligerant and bullying MorphOS minority who seem to poison every AmigaOS4 thread.
This nastiness has tainted MorphOS and makes me actively resist adopting it.

This is sad, as when potential customers think of MorphOS they should see the features, benefits and great progammers behind it. I only see bitterness and vile.

The MorphOS team need to rein in that small minority; They are doing it more harm than good.



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Hyperionmp 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:21:38
#34 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 502
From: Unknown

@amigadave

I'm not going to get into the merits of this debate but I do need to correct you on a very significant point.

Hyperion has two of the original Amiga Technologies GmbH developers working on AmigaOS 4.x.

To my knowledge, both contributed to the classic 68K AmigaOS (i.e. a long time before AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 were released).

One is Olaf Barthel who is the one that cleaned up all the original Commodore 3.1 source-code, made it all compile with a single compiler, put all the code in a CVS etc. and essentially made AmigaOS 4.x possible without wasting a massive amount of time.

Another is Heinz Wrobel (who many may know as the author of Envoy).

Those who know where to look for it will find code of both of these guys in AmigaOS 2.x - 3.1.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no former Commodore/Amiga Technologies developers working on other Amiga like operating systems. Feel free to correct me.

On top of that, Hyperion is using the original Commodore source-code which can be traced back to the very beginning. Nobody else can (openly) claim the same, I'm sorry.

Contrary to popular belief, a lot of that code is still incorporated into the OS e.g. Workbench and AREXX.

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g_kraszewski 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:21:47
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Sep-2010
Posts: 340
From: Unknown

@afxgroup

because maybe not all MOS users spend their time on forums?

That's true. For example I've seriously reduced my presence on forums (even deleted accounts on three of them) in favour of doing some real work to promote MorphOS, like writing software, starting morphos-files.net project, working on morphos.pl site and writing programming tutorials. It works much better than bashing competitors .

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vox 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:28:38
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@amigadave

Probably impression is because here are a lot of OS4 users / news.
However, when I check MorphZone, yes it doesn`t look that lively,
probably more current MOS users should be motivated.

Quote:
Do most, or many OS4 users feel that if they were to try MorphOS, or become users of both OS4 and MorphOS they would be betraying their OS4 brethren in some way?


No, I would love to use MOS (and was looking and reading about it since first 0.x releases even I didn`t have the PPC card to run it) if it was avail for hadrware that
is acessible to me, that is SAM 440 and next year that OS4 "Lime" nettop.

First native PPC software (not just using co-processor) were MOS 1.x on Aminet.

If MOS wants to have OS4 users buying it, we need common platform like Peg is
or PPC Classics used to be for MOS 1.x

Love its optimized, with MUI 4, Reggae as part of it., Classic PPC games work and its overally feels better on same hardware (as I hear from Peg2 owners and tests)

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Ancalimon 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:34:26
#37 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 428
From: Istanbul

I think best parts (whatever they are) of Morphos and AmigaOS should be combined. People should at last start working together. We are at least 10 years older and more mature people. AmigaOS4 is a must for me but I haven't been able to afford buying hardware to run it. I like Morphos but I don't want two different OS's trying to be each other. It simply slows down everything else. It's time someone fixed this.

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afxgroup 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:34:29
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1963
From: Taranto, Italy

@g_kraszewski

i know very well There are no great differences between user base. our user bases are so low that nobody external to amiga world will notice the difference... maybe some users prefer to do other that spend time on forums.. Actually i'm injuried to a feet and so i must spend my time while that damned cygwin finish to compile gcc.. :-/ and so i spend more time on forums these days..

Last edited by afxgroup on 28-Oct-2011 at 08:42 AM.

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vox 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:39:42
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@amigadave

Quote:
here is no original Amiga 68k code in OS4, as it is all rewritten for PPC,


First that was the same 3.0 code ported to PPC with ExecSG (new PPC exec) and then slowly upgraded. So it is the continuation, but its true ut isn`t 68k. Believe Hyperion did best to keep the OS compatibile in structure but to improve it. If you would be that "closed minded" probably Windows 9x and WindowsNT wouldn`t be part of same OS family because kernel and many components and folder names changed


If it isn`t 68k it isn`t AmigaOS? Well, that is untrue too ...

However, remember from BB4 article that some libs and stuff on OS 4.0 for Classics were 68k and could be leeched to improve OS 3.9


Yes, both AROS and MorphOS have the similar roots in rewritting the OS 3.0/3.1 code, but not as direct succession of conplete libs etc. structure, where components get updated later, In feel, idea and execution that doesn`t make them less Amiga feel.

In tinmeline, MOS could be the winner, but it had its own stopgaps (fighting among developers, no 2.x for Classics, Genesi quit).

As people noted, we are witnessing that OS4 is improving fast and supporting more new hardware.

Maybe with new MOS 3.x, new components, support for new Macs (and hope SAMs and X1000 one day if you want OS4 users) it will again gain the momentum and apps development.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why does there seem to be more OS4 users than MorphOS users?
Posted on 28-Oct-2011 8:47:15
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10972
From: Norway

@amigadave

I was really excited about A/BOX back in the days, then totally then Phase5 when bankrupt in the process I lost track of entities that become bplan and co, when I first read about MorphOS I was disappointed about ABOX/Quark approach, it reminded my about AmigaXL and Amihlon too short lived NG approaches that did not go anywhere (basically AmigaInc pulled the plug on the project, and 2 tag team members frank and beard just fighter etch other), Amihlon basically was a heavy modified UAE integrated whit a QNX or Linux kernel, MorphOS is something different it’s not based on UAE

I choice AmigaOS4 because I wanted to come back to Amiga, not MorphOS, and because I did not like the direction MorphOS was heading at the time, I must say that MorphOS team has impressed me whit 3D, they were lucky to have many of people that worked on 3rd party add-ons for AmigaOS, like OpenPCI, MUI and AHI, it most have defiantly helped.

I stuck whit AmigaOS4 and despite not having all the 3rd party addons I expected it to just be a question of time before we also did have USB2, and nice 3D, I must say it has taken longer than expected.

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