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PosterThread
Rose 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 13:25:52
#221 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@cha05e90

Quote:

cha05e90 wrote:
@Rose
Quote:
Difference here is that people who say it can't be done are actual coders.

...oh dear, and therefore they're never wrong? I'm working with coders all the day - 'u can't imagine how often they fail (myself included).


True. But I think that they are bit more qualified to say what's possible and what's not than non coders.

And on failing you should have seen nice Layer-2 loop I managed to do other day and borkking network on whole hosting facility for few minutes

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amigang 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 13:39:45
#222 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2018
From: Cheshire, England


Friedens talk about the future of OS4 and SMP here:-

http://blip.tv/bios/ben-hermans-and-the-friedens-at-amiwest-show-2010-4344954
fast forward to 10min in.

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clusteruk 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 13:46:23
#223 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1544
From: Marston Moretaine, England

SMP or AMP are only impossible while people have not figured out how to do it.

_________________
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guruman 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 14:22:08
#224 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2007
Posts: 133
From: Padova, Italy

@samo79
Quote:
samo79 wrote:

Sure certain MOS devs say it's impossible but it seems that OS4 developers have a different idea about it so only time will tell ...

Two things:
1 - MorphOS developers never said it's impossible. It's just impossible keeping the current architecture and trying to keep compatibility. On the contrary MorphOS developers have been the first ones to talk about the concept of sandboxes, something like more than 10 years ago. As kas1e knows, and as do most savvy users and the whole MorphOS team, this is just something not going to happen overnight. Instead, the problem is if there is enough "working force" and "knowledge base" for such radical changes in the OS at all.
Yet I keep reading all the time people putting words in other people's mouths.

2 - Time will tell is a very big truth. In 2002 Hyperion started talking about true memory protection, memory virtualization and resource management. Just like today, some MorphOS developers said that they would have been impossible without breaking compatibility or implementing a sandbox, and in general they would have been unlikely to appear in a short timeframe.
So, samo, time will tell, but have the last 10 years already told something to you? To me they did, and now I know even better whom to put more trust in. Of course, facts in the future can change my mind, but, as I often say, I am bound to live in the present.

Kind regards,
Andrea

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broadblues 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 14:27:23
#225 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@umisef

Quote:

Because on single-processor AmigaOS, all interrupt code is guaranteed to be atomic with respect to all user-space (or rather, non-interrupt and lower-priority interrupt level) code.


So you define a newclass of interupt where atomicity (sic) is not guaranteed. New code is written using this.

For the old interupts you stop both cores.

So initaial SMP will be less efficient than it might be, but over time more and more code migrates to the new interupt and things improve.

Conceptionaly that doesn't seem very hard to think off, perhaps implementation is less trivial.

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vox 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 15:12:21
#226 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@Rose

Quote:
Difference here is that people who say it can't be done are actual coders. Those who say that it's going to work are mostly people who can't make hello world work. Pretty much same that if I say that ponys fart rainbows and vet who says they don't is labeled naysayer.


Quite true, since I am amongst "lamers" that say it will be done but ...

a) Hyperion mentioned as official plan (SSolie again this year) it and hardware in X1000 is built for it. Who in the right mind would provide dual core board where 2nd core would
never be used? It`s matter of implementation

b) with respect for coders, they don`t work on AmigaOS 4 to have real insight, even 68k interrupt remark is true. 68k apps could be sandboxed to something between Petunia or UAE, here is the real question of OS4 apps. 68k apps, even have to be used in some fields, loose importance over time as we get more PPC replacements.

c) SMP was once also promised for MOS, as well as sandboxing. This looks like bit envy on other OS`s path to advance

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KimmoK 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 15:34:05
#227 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

So... it seems there will be compromises to be made in the SMP implementation of AOS4, untill sandboxing is done.

Nice to see some details to appear to mere mortals (about SMP difficulties) rather than nay sayers just nagging.

There is no alternative to multicore in the future. It just must be supported, somehow.

_________________
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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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itix 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 16:16:24
#228 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@broadblues

It is not only affecting interrupt code itself. For example it is possible PutMsg() or Signal() from interrupt code. So it is not enough to check only that interrupt code but also system calls that are marked as interrupt safe. Maybe it is already done, maybe not, probably not.

Last edited by itix on 04-Feb-2012 at 04:18 PM.
Last edited by itix on 04-Feb-2012 at 04:17 PM.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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broadblues 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 16:22:07
#229 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@itix

Yes but system calls are under the control of the os developers, so they can be made safe, and clearly they would have to be. How far that project might be along I have no idea.



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itix 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 4-Feb-2012 16:47:07
#230 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@broadblues

PutMsg() certainly can be made safe but SMP friendly, maybe not.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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ChrisH 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 12:05:11
#231 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@broadblues Quote:
Yes but system calls are under the control of the os developers, so they can be made safe, and clearly they would have to be. How far that project might be along I have no idea.

All device drivers (which will typically use interrupts) that come with OS4 can be made SMP friendly. That means there is only the problem of how to handle third-party device drivers (and are there that many to worry about?).

BTW, what might a normal program use (soft) interrupts for? I know that I've used one for timer.device events.

@umisef
Thanks for your code sample. It helps clarify the problem greatly.

Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Feb-2012 at 12:18 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Feb-2012 at 12:16 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 05-Feb-2012 at 12:06 PM.

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zerohero 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 12:22:18
#232 ]
Team Member
Joined: 4-May-2004
Posts: 2524
From: Uddevalla, Sweden

@Rose

Quote:
Moderating for wrong opinions


...is not something we do, and haven't done for at least 6 years now. Why is it that people still live in the past about this?

Quote:
BTW Banning active developer was great idea too.


Here's a piece of the ToS for you:

Quote:
Arguments about specific moderation incidents are not tolerated on the public forum, use the adjudication process open to you.


Consider this a warning to you on the subject. Further questions should be handled via PM.

Regards,
Joachim Birging

AmigaWorld.Net staff

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Rose 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 12:31:54
#233 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@zerohero

Quote:

zerohero wrote:
@Rose

Quote:
Moderating for wrong opinions


...is not something we do, and haven't done for at least 6 years now. Why is it that people still live in the past about this?


Quote:
I will be in favour of moderating ANYONE who categorically says that something controversial (on this site) is "impossible" or "fantasy"


That's not moderating for having wrong opinions? Thursday is hardly past...

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zerohero 
Re: Woot! X1000 shipping out Monday
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 17:19:49
#234 ]
Team Member
Joined: 4-May-2004
Posts: 2524
From: Uddevalla, Sweden

@Rose

Quote:
That's not moderating for having wrong opinions? Thursday is hardly past...


Obviously you're pulling the piece of text out of context, but whatever suits you I guess.

Let me re-iterate for you, AmigaWorld.Net will never moderate opinion for as long as current staff is in charge, we will moderate behavior.

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