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PosterThread
resle 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 16-Apr-2012 12:53:36
#61 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

@Belxjander

Quote:
@Arko Belxjander@gmail.com is the address I use for Email and Paypal... Up to you if you donate or not... Please be sure and Thank you for the consideration.


Ever heard of "sarcasm"?
Hint: it's not a programming framework.

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Belxjander 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 16-Apr-2012 13:09:57
#62 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@resle

yes, and apparently it doesn't hold to itself in a mirror... next?

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resle 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 16-Apr-2012 13:15:49
#63 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

@Belxjander

Hint 2: that's not me.
Hint 3: Franko was being sarcastic too, in that post



Now I am completely convinced that you can code a VM with several layers of abstraction. Case closed.













(Hint 5 ..... )

Last edited by resle on 16-Apr-2012 at 01:19 PM.
Last edited by resle on 16-Apr-2012 at 01:19 PM.

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kas1e 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 16-Apr-2012 13:36:43
#64 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3361
From: Russia

Quote:

I am only listing "Anonymous (??)" entries on the DONORS wiki page for each donation where I don't get a specific statement of permission to list a proper name.
And the only record of donations is my paypal account records and a paper listing I have.


Yes. Thats how alrogritmic boundaries works.

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Belxjander 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 16-Apr-2012 13:57:34
#65 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@resle + @Opie

There honestly isn't that much to the abstraction, between MemoryManagement, Chip Processes and tying it together.

The only primary issue is making the Chip Processes usable by Launcher type so that various program types get the correct handler applied.

Java ByteCode, Smalltalk ByteCode, x86 ByteCode or 68000 Instruction byteCodes...
much of a muchness... and as long as they use Memory blocks in a standard way I can re-write a central core that uses a standard set of Memory Management routines and have the various chips work in approximately the same way.

EDIT: no I do not mean the Instruction numbers are the same, but they do get to be processed in a similar way for the various real and fake hardware types.

as for "faking the hardware", two methods are available, one is through Exception handling on a specific block of memory, and the other is to write to the memory and include a Signal triggering another process to read that memory relying on the multitasking of the host system.

That is the plan at least considering the first edition of polymorph only ever emulated a single chip and relied on "fake" drivers inside the Emulation to use native code.
This would be similar to how some drivers work with AMIthlon or how to make something like "Wine" work on AmigaOS, some libraries would need mixed code written to "break" the Emulation for specific operations.

That is why it would be possible with a module for each bytecode type to be usable in a singular manner.

there is the JumpTable representing a function for each Instruction number and a seperate JumpTable for standardized memory access.

it is the interaction of these functions which provides the core functionality.

the Polymorph Library itself only exposes a generic way of handling each module...
The modules themselves can ask for further modules to handle specifics...

I don't expect any speed out of the core routines other than keeping them as short as possible.

The main issue I saw Opie having trouble with is that the modules for each type of ByteCode would be interchangable... or usable from an "aware" program to mix subroutines from various processors together.

and as the various modules can "contain" or "wrap" a specific program file to isolate it from the system (at least in part) there is the possibilities of "pushing" or "pulling" the entire state of the program within a particular module from one machine to another across network links.

Also there is the other possibilities of various "fake" Processor Instruction sets being defined and written as a module with a signature header for programs to use these which is how Java or other "fake hardware" bytecode processing can take place.

I don't see all of the problems I may face in writing it up modularly like this, however I don't see any reason not to at least try and if any of the code becomes useful, yay... if it is a waste... well... I tried anyway.

If any of this seems sarcastic, apologies for not being any clearer...

If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask... I've given my Email address which has not changed in over 20 years from when I started using this name online.

Any feedback messages here or more directly will be appreciated.

@kas1e

Please feel free to pick the code apart, I only hope you will tell me if you see problems.

Your own work with Amiga OS 4.x on os4coding.net is actually very informative. It has actually inspired me to review part of Polymorph.

Last edited by Belxjander on 16-Apr-2012 at 01:59 PM.

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Belxjander 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 1:10:08
#66 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

From the original price (440 Euro) only 30 Euro remains after 4 payments
My own money is going on this as well as donations.

EDIT: corrected monetary details... Donors can be found listed on the Project sites in the relevant Wiki pages.

I'm still continuing with both projects...
if anyone has access to a Japanese keyboard, there is an AOS4 keymap in the Perception-IME repository... along with a written up Japanese.Language library (needs to be compiled and sorting algorythms added) available for testing *now* for anyone interested in checking that out.

Almost to the next step being completed of a language library being compiled and installable for basic strings to be presented and "alphabetical" ordering based on the symbols within the language itself.

Whomever wishes to can attempt to build the project as-is, I will only request that anyone doing so can send me an Email listing any errors or describing any problems.

I would like to make this as complete as possible before adding the IME facilities and minimal ( and preferably no) patching of any major OS libraries without a dammed good reason

Thank you again to everyone who has donated.
ALL of the Donations have been forwarded to the seller of the machine I am buying.

Just keeping Everyone informed. And anyone with questions is welcomed to ask me directly.

Last edited by Belxjander on 01-May-2012 at 04:52 AM.
Last edited by Belxjander on 01-May-2012 at 01:11 AM.

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Belxjander 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 5:35:08
#67 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

****FINAL*PAYMENT**** has been made...

I am now only waiting on the seller to post and the system kit to arrive...

I will be recording system construction and setup... along with development setup,
Hopefully this will help explain some of the peculiarties with the sam board series and provide some means of basic problem resolution when setting up AmigaOS4.x based systems.

Additionally I won't need further Volunteers for build testing, however anyone may volunteer to try out any of the tools and libraries I write up if feedback can be reported...

Please report what feedback you can good or bad if you choose to test what I begin releasing after I have tested it as functional at least for my own setup.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 9:04:30
#68 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1846
From: Australia

Cool, now that you have the hardware I look forward to waching attempted justifications and excuses as to why neither of the "projects" come to anything. This ought to be fun in a train wreck sort of way.

Condolences to anyone who threw any money away expecting anything to come of these promises. Cant say youve not been warned though.

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Belxjander 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 9:59:14
#69 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@fishy_fis

Donations account for just under half of the total cost paid for buying the system kit. My own money paying the rest.

Ive already started with code checked in on Googles code repository services.

Feel free to criticize as much as you want... as long as I can find out what is actually problematic with it.


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KimmoK 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 10:09:42
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5109
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@fishy_fis

Insane negativity again.

Putting other people down, does not make you stronger.


Let's give him a chance, now that he has the system.
Let's hope he has fun with his AmigaNG. He has already contributed to the community some ways, he might deliver SW or not, it's on his hands, not yours.

Perhaps some people are afraid that he will deliver?
But if/when Belxjander delivers some/any SW, it's not like taking any other developers credit away, so be civil.

@Belxjander

Good luck. Amigaworld seems to be waiting, impatiently, even. 

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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jingof 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 12:24:16
#71 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 497
From: Jingo Fet is from "A Galaxy Far, Far Away"

@Belxjander

Finally got around to donating to your PVM project (not much for now, but maybe more later).

BTW, I think PolyVM is really interesting.. So, keep your head up and don't let the attackers discourage you. Cowards can easily hide behind their computer screens and take shots. But the real measure of character is how cool you've remained under fire, while all the attackers get more and more vitriolic. Good luck on these projects!

Last edited by jingof on 01-May-2012 at 12:25 PM.

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opi 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 12:47:27
#72 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@jingof

Quote:
all the attackers


Attackers? You know when I was called attacker-troll-FUDer, enemy of One True Amiga? When I said X1000 will be late and expensive, when I said Troika is a scam, when I said AI will not sponsor Kent's Sport Center nor they have deal with Sharp/whoever, when I questioned ACK or CUSA.

Attacking is not asking question. Valid, technical questions. Why do people think that asking question is somehow rude?

If you want to get money from people, prepare to be question about it. And despite our attacks he got his free Sam board. Now, let me dig up this thread in a year or two, we'll have a good laugh.

Last edited by opi on 01-May-2012 at 01:09 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 13:07:57
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1846
From: Australia

@KimmoK

I base my comments on having known belxjandeer for about a decade, hearing him day in/day out make all sorts of elaborate/grandiose claims and not having delivered *anything* but excuses. The dual 680x0 cpu card that he claimed to have received funding for springs to mind. Some of the excuses and/or "progress reports" have been hilarious over the years.

I bit my tongue for a number of years, then for the last few years tried telling him that actions speak louder than words. By now its just allternates between funny and being like fingernails down a blackboard when he talks his crap.

I tried warning people diplomatically, not much more I could do, so now Im going to sit back and enjoy trainwreck watching. Hopefully this sort of public attention and not delivering again after having conned people into paying for 1/2 his Sam will stop him annoying people with his bizarre need to try to sound clever.

Im more than happy to place a wager that he wont deliver anything more than a thinly veiled attempt at looking like he's doing somthing.
I could use a cash injection. Any takers? :)

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Belxjander 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 13:10:04
#74 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@opi

I've still paid part of the costs myself? so other than "free" as in speech are you meaning "free"?
"free" as in free beer?

That I have paid part of the costs myself and will be putting further funds towards additional Amiga projects (not my own) quite happilly

I'm also going to be providing what I can do with making both of these projects happen...
so please... keep the skeptical attitude and maybe you can ask me further questions...

But if you wish to categorically state that I have not paid anything for the board myself...
THAT would be a blatant lie and spreading FUD based on such.

Other than that you have not been other than healthily skeptical to date.

Please don't cross that line... If you do wish to insist that it is "free" and that I have not paid anything... then I will leave you to your own beliefs.

No point in digging up evidence if its going to lead to negative discussions, skepticism I can understand and appreciate.
Lies are something that I have zero-tolerance about.

Lie to yourself and Lie to others... please don't lie to me.

I have NOT obtained a sam440flex from the community for "free" as you have stated...
Quote:

If you want to get money prepare to be question about it. And despite our attacks he got his free Sam board. Now, let me dig up this thread in a year or two, we'll have a good laugh.

I *have* partially paid for this out of my own pocket... so the statement the board is "free" is a blatant lie.

I also have *physical* evidence of this. so please... be healthily skeptical but there is no need to lie as part of this thread.

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kas1e 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 13:24:31
#75 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3361
From: Russia

@Belxjander

You *ARE* amiga user. You *ARE* true example of amiga user these days ! Keep your posts coming, and *PLEASE* update your blog entry. *AND* say us how much left. And *of course* , do not watch back : at least if you can't do single hello world for the years, you for sure *WILL* make and new VM, and mutators-permutators (based on the amazing boundary algorithms), and *YOU WILL* help to write SMP , and you *ARE* awesome !

@Kimmok + Jingoff

You both not for real say it , right ? I mean, are you for real can't see comedia here ?

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Belxjander 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 13:39:35
#76 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@kas1e

Maybe something missing in translation when we discuss things?

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opi 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 14:11:13
#77 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Belxjander

Quote:
I *have* partially paid for this out of my own pocket... so the statement the board is "free" is a blatant lie.


OK, so you still got the money, but it was not a full price tag price for Sam's board. I retract my "free" statement.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 14:56:01
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11116
From: Norway

@Belxjander

Quote:
as for "faking the hardware", two methods are available, one is through Exception handling on a specific block of memory.


That approach is general too CPU intensive by its own, but it can be combined whit some thing else, I'm going to give you the chance to figure it out.

Quote:
and the other is to write to the memory and include a Signal triggering another process to read that memory relying on the multitasking of the host system.


And the other way will require consent poling the memory for change, because it no way you can signal the fake hardware unless you faking some hardware that has hardware interrupts.

Or else you need to emulate a MMU, and that will be costly, and use address masking to detect memory zones, and this will need to be applied to all read and writes, so that's not ideal.

There exists and other way you not listed as well, and its extremity efficient, but will only work in specific conditions.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-May-2012 at 03:06 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 01-May-2012 at 02:58 PM.

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TheAMIgaOne 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 16:14:35
#79 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Jan-2004
Posts: 774
From: United Kingdom

@Belxjander

Well done on the donations, I would contribute but Im skint hense asking donations for my own system upgrades.

Id glady look into assisting on the polymorph app, although the knowledge maybe a little over my skill set but I enjoy researching new stuff.

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Belxjander 
Re: Perception IME + Polymorph VM bounties...
Posted on 1-May-2012 16:46:37
#80 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@TheAMIgaOne

Your welcome to hack on the code and submit changes... I'm also available to discuss the material as well...

Hopefully I can explain what I have in mind so that you don't become lost...

I am also trying to document my work as I proceed with some of the code itself being part of the documentation...

please let me know if you find some parts hard to read...

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