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   /  General Technology (No Console Threads)
      /  Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
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PosterThread
Yssing 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 7-Mar-2012 12:33:42
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1084
From: Unknown

@Arko

Ive got a feeling, that nothing will be good enough for you, no matter how many cores and gazillion hertz.

I personally have no need for 4 cores @ +3ghz for typing and websurfing.

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Belxjander 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 7-Mar-2012 12:36:58
#62 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@olegil

I was thinking of a read-only ROM... not a FlashROM...

FlashROM with update options including bootstrapping the Kickstart Modules from that would be perfectly fine,

as long as the "Root" filesystem for AmigaOS is not the FlashROM itself, bootloader and core "Kickstart" modules all being loaded before running a "SYS:" partition from some kind of SDD/SATA controller connected storage device...but we would definitely need the Kickstart modules for all the cards produced

Last edited by Belxjander on 07-Mar-2012 at 12:40 PM.

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olegil 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 7-Mar-2012 13:25:16
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Belxjander

You need support for a SATA controller or two in the bootloader anyway. But that's not a big problem. I primarily wanted the kernel modules in flash for speed.

Another thought I had was to put an SB600 or similar from AMD on a PCIe board and from there get the x1 PCIe, PCI, sound, USB, SATA ports you need. Putting it on a separate board might seem counter-intuitive, but the idea is to reduce the engineering effort of each board, thereby making it possible to reach completion.
You CAN do without it for the initial runs, therefore you SHOULD do without it.

Easier to do a collective effort that way as well.

Part 1:
SoC board
Part 2:
SB riser board
Part 3:
Case
Part 4:
UBoot
Part 5:
OS4
Part 6:
Upgrade something, for instance the SoC or the SB. As soon as you're done with your parts of the equation, get to work on the next generation. Thereby ensuring a living project that doesn't end up in limbo.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Arko 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 7-Mar-2012 20:04:38
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
@Arko

Great! I got you down to 2.5Ghz with the reality check!


As long as you can't get boards with this 2.5 GHz CPU it is ... worthless for desktops.

As long as Hyperion ignores this board like so much others, it is as worthless as the PPC on PS3, XBOX360, Wee, GameCube several G4 or G5 Macs, IBM workstation or PCI CPU cards.

Last edited by Arko on 07-Mar-2012 at 08:07 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Arko 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 7-Mar-2012 20:06:25
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote:
@Arko

I guess all my computers are worthless as desktops.


As long as you can't get boards with this 2.5 GHz CPU it is ... ah, it is already on a board a whole computer and not only a paper written roadmark ... well That's the difference funny so much people here can't recognize it.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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KimmoK 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 7-Mar-2012 20:23:02
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Arko

"As long as Hyperion ignores this board like so much others"

I did not realize that there were so many other usable PPC HW beside SAMs, peg2 and A1. (old HW without documentation does not count)

To me it seems AOS4 runs on most (if not on every) available PPC desktop HW and more compatible HW is coming into production.

((but I'm 100% sure that before mext SMP/AMP capable HW appears for AOS4, AOS4 has support for all it's cores))

Last edited by KimmoK on 07-Mar-2012 at 08:26 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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Mechanic 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 7-Mar-2012 21:13:41
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown


The question itself reminds me of those constant pop quiz questions
you get on TV. You know, the ones that make you feel so stupid.

Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Are you getting the best return on your investments?
What would you pay for a top luxury car today?
Are you concerned about bad breath?
Is your hair stylist making you look your best?

Damn,,,,I'll never pass the final exam.

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number6 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 7-Mar-2012 21:58:39
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@amigadave

Quote:
Is hyperionmp a member of the Hyperion company?


It is a multiple usage account by at least two members of Hyperion CVBA.

Your question is better directed to Ben Hermans through email, as opposed to trying to guess whom you are conversing with here. Heh.

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

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Yssing 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 10:09:13
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1084
From: Unknown

@Arko

But you fail to see that those gazillion hertz and cores are not need in our everyday lifes.
It might be usefull on a bloated OS, but that is an other matter all together.

So now the CPU exists, and apparently a board for it. So you make up a new problem.

You do not know what Hyperion is looking at, neither do I. I do how ever see the glass as half full.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 10:20:20
#70 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@Yssing

OS4, or indeed MOS or AROS, are not bloated OSes, true...

but, instead of bloatware, they suffer from poor drivers and driver support and generally less than ideal optimizations. So, that gives pretty much the same result as bloatness.

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vox 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 10:43:31
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
but, instead of bloatware, they suffer from poor drivers and driver support and generally less than ideal optimizations. So, that gives pretty much the same result as bloatness.


Fair judgement, however situation is slowly improving: so far supported hardware will get fairly better support and PCI-E bus on 460 and X1000 (esp. PCI-E x1 slots) cry for more drivers. But in my opinion, decent printer driver should be first.

Lets see how situation will improve with next major incarnations, OS 4.2 and MOS 3.

While I am fairly satisfied with OS developments, lack of decent Office is so far heavy blow.

@thread

Since current hardware could be even better used by the OS, I don`t feel we need that much faster CPUs since MOS and OS4 work fairly even on 500-600Mhz range of CPUs. Today CPU isn`t that relevant as much as use of GPU. So utilization Radeon cards to the fullest extent would be first major improvement.

Having Gigahertz CPUs is still more trend then need for everyday computer use.
Not that users don`t benefit from extra speed, but that we have been so far proud our OS works on low megahertz CPU.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

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Yssing 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 11:38:34
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1084
From: Unknown

@vox

Now that QT is ported to AOS4.x would it not be possible to port KOffice then?

Last edited by Yssing on 08-Mar-2012 at 11:39 AM.

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Arko 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 12:12:21
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote:
@Arko

But you fail to see that those gazillion hertz ....


LOL I was never talking much about clock frequency, read again:

Quote:

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote:


If you look at the roadmap of Freescale and IBM, ...


As long as you want to produce a router or web server with a good scaling SMP OS like Linux they might be a good choice. As long as you can't get boards with a 3GHz CPU on it they are ... worthless for desktops.


Maybe even a sub 1GHz PPC could be usefull for a tiny desktop, make a good board for a price under around 50$/€ and there might be a small market depending on available OSes and applications.

And the topic of this thread was about PPC especially from IBM in game consoles, there you should have a lot more performance,. 3GHz per core would be useful.

And never forget, a CPU without a board might be useful as jewelery only, a roadmap could be a nice wall paper.

Last edited by Arko on 08-Mar-2012 at 12:20 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Yssing 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 12:57:34
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1084
From: Unknown

@Arko

Quote:
As long as you can't get boards with a 3GHz CPU on it they are ... worthless for desktops.


What ever, I, and most likely others as well, was under the impression that, when you mentioned anything below 3ghz was useless, you actually was talking about clock.

What where you talking about then?

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olegil 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 18:02:39
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Arko

CPU included in those 50€?

An 800MHz P1014 costs about 30USD (you could go as low as a 533, but I'm sure you wouldn't like that ).

Add a single 2Gb (128Mx16) chip for 256MB memory. 8USD
Add a couple of SATA connectors, lets say 1USD
A x16 PCIe for graphics, 2.5USD
A x1 PCIe for other things, 0.3USD
RGMII PHY, 3USD
Ethernet connector with magnetics plus USB, 3USD
Misc electronics like power inductors, capacitors, FETs, regulators: 10USD
PCB. This would be about 10x20cm. Let's be conservative and say 10USD
Almost forgot: Bootflash, 2.2USD
ATX power connector: 0.3USD
30+8+1+2.5+0.3+3+3+15+10+2.2+0.3 = 70.3
About 53 EUR.

Note that you would need to add some for getting things soldered onto the board (you could get a cost+x% sort of deal, adding maybe 20-30% given enough volume.

And you need to add shipping.

And your own profit.

About 100 EUR. Want it for 50? Try to shave off 50 EUR from that, you won't succeed.

Note that I shaved off a little off of each and every price from digikey, as I know you could do better elsewhere when buying larger lots.
http://search.digikey.com/no/en/products/P1014NXN5DFA/P1014NXN5DFA-ND/2805003
http://search.digikey.com/no/en/products/MT41J128M16HA-125G:D/MT41J128M16HA-125G:D-ND/2663612
http://search.digikey.com/no/en/products/67800-5005/WM19104-ND/1499154
http://search.digikey.com/no/en/products/NWE140DHHN-T921/S2797-ND/1874966
http://search.digikey.com/no/en/products/NWE18DHHN-T921/S2782-ND/1874951
http://search.digikey.com/no/en/products/C893-1AX1-E1/380-1091-ND/717951
http://search.digikey.com/no/en/products/VSC8601XKN/907-1028-ND/2179212

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 18:09:47
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@olegil

Ooops, forgot the ULPI PHY you need for the second USB port: 1USD

http://search.digikey.com/no/en/products/TUSB1210BRHBR/296-28384-2-ND/2627246

The thing is, if someone were to actually MAKE this and end up south of 100USD, there would be all sorts of complaints. About SOMETHING. Cause it's never QUITE perfect for everyone, is it?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 18:12:25
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@olegil

Very bad shame they only put 6 serdeses on that, given that you'll use two for SATA. If it had 7 you could do x4+x1, but with only 4 remaining any sort of splitting up sucks dead rats through garden hoses (like Joanne Dow used to say. Anyone know what happened to her, btw?)

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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OldFart 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 18:48:19
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@olegil

Quote:
Cause it's never QUITE perfect for everyone, is it?

Ehm, you're not new in the amazing world of Amiga, are you?
But then again, when people have the machine which got everything from their wishlist, it is mostly used for tasks which would hardly have need for all those bells 'n' whistles.

OldFart

_________________
More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

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Mechanic 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 19:28:33
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@OldFart

It is just a strange place Amiga world. The people involved, from top to bottom, are busy
doing their own things, oblivious to the FACT that all the true experts are on the outside
in their own world where they must mind what is not their business and point out things
they know nothing about. Strange.

I wonder if they bet on things using Quatloos?

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vox 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 19:36:52
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@Yssing

Quote:
Now that QT is ported to AOS4.x would it not be possible to port KOffice then?


That would be great, if we could e.g. set up a bounty and found one or more talented persons to do the port

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

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