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      /  Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
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Arko 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 20:02:55
#81 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote:


What where you talking about then?


About worthless roadmaps with CPUs that where not designed for desktops and about the problems from getting a CPU from a roadmap to an existing board for a desktops.
CPUs are worthless without a mainboard. Pointing out how long development of hard and software needed for other AOS4 related projects will bring me another "reported" mesage from our friendly AOS4 fans here, but development with a CPU that exists only on a roadmap will not be faster.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Spectre660 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 20:12:56
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

@Arko

Are not all Desktop systems dead in the grand scheme of things ?
Ask Apple and Google. And Microsoft can't wait to join in the fun .

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Arko 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 20:23:23
#83 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote:
@Arko

Are not all Desktop systems dead in the grand scheme of things ?
Ask Apple and Google. And Microsoft can't wait to join in the fun .



If you understand stock traders or marketing people you will understand why "not growing fast" is considered "dead" by such people. The whole AmigaOID market would be great if it had only 1% of the size and vitality of the desktop PC market. And if you are thinking about AmigaOIDs on other markets, there is so much missing in AmigaOID OSes for tablets or mobiles and even if you add all what is missing you will not recognize it as AmigaOId anymore. No AmigaOIds have some chance as desktop pc or desktop like hobby platform (including Laptop, Notbook, Netbook) not much more.

This is just a tech. demo not very usable even if most devices where supported by drivers.
http://aros-exec.org/uploads/newbb/3140_4f54fd228e0dd.jpg

Last edited by Arko on 08-Mar-2012 at 08:28 PM.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Arko 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 20:24:58
#84 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@Arko

CPU included in those 50€?



Of course CPU+RAM+GFX+I/O , it should compete with other hobby hardware, like the Rasberry PI I don't mind if it would cost two times the price, but thats exactly what was meants

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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olegil 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 20:50:06
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Arko

Given that you insist on GPU included in that price, you've narrowed it down to just one chip. MPC5121e. Too bad. Doable within 50 USD, but at 400MHz not that cool.

And this is hardly DESKTOP, is it?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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ChrisH 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 8-Mar-2012 23:55:10
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

(Getting back on topic)

Does Sony really dare go x86 for the PS4? Doesn't that mean the PS4 will be easily emulated? I thought that was why they went for PPC last time (as emulating a 3GHz PPC chip at full speed will require a much faster x86 chip, never mind the CPU power required to emulate the other hardware).

Sony has seen how easily the PS3 was cracked once they removed Linux support, so do they really think the PS4 will be much different? DRM is basically technological "snake oil", as the very idea (of distributing the 'secret' decoding key inside every product sold) is fundamentally flawed (if the 'secret' key has to be used, then it can be read by someone sufficiently clever).

Last edited by ChrisH on 09-Mar-2012 at 12:08 AM.

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ChrisH 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 0:06:05
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon Quote:
OS4, or indeed MOS or AROS, are not bloated OSes, true...

but, instead of bloatware, they suffer from poor drivers and driver support and generally less than ideal optimizations. So, that gives pretty much the same result as bloatness.

I won't talk about MOS or AROS (since I don't know enough), but AmigaOS4's hardware seems to get pretty well supported by drivers (given time). Just look at the Sam440. You just have to remember that the Amiga is small market, so things take time. (Not that I actually expect you to be interested in anything not produced by C=USA or not using x86.)

Last edited by ChrisH on 09-Mar-2012 at 12:09 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 2:21:32
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote:
(Getting back on topic)

Does Sony really dare go x86 for the PS4? Doesn't that mean the PS4 will be easily emulated? I thought that was why they went for PPC last time (as emulating a 3GHz PPC chip at full speed will require a much faster x86 chip, never mind the CPU power required to emulate the other hardware).


PPE chip in PS3 *is* relatively slow i.e. IPC similar to Intel Atom.

AMD GCN already includes X86-64 IP i.e. memory operations are X86 based.



AMD already released base clockspeed +4Ghz BZ CPU in the CE market.

Last edited by Hammer on 09-Mar-2012 at 02:31 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 09-Mar-2012 at 02:30 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 09-Mar-2012 at 02:26 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 09-Mar-2012 at 02:23 AM.

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olegil 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 6:42:33
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@ChrisH

The only POWER arch choice that could take them ahead would be a Freescsale T4240 unless IBM brought out a reduced POWER6 or POWER7.

Allthough, seeing how much trouble we had getting perfect A500 emulation, I guess there are other ways than obscure CPU to ensure you won't be emulated, at least until end-of-life for your product

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 10:02:31
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@olegil

Oh for heavens sakes. How did I miss the P1022 which has graphics out and sound IO? No 3D engine, though. And higher price. But still. It's interesting.
Maybe I should create a separate thread for this. Sorry for the OT.

Last edited by olegil on 09-Mar-2012 at 10:05 AM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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KimmoK 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 10:34:37
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@olegil

Also APM86290 has LCD "port"?? it's not clear to me what it's for...

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/images/stories/appliedmicro_mamba_apm86290_block.jpg

It's funny that the chip has also ARM on it.
http://electronicdesign.com/Content/UserStorage/14946/63143_fig1.jpg

Last edited by KimmoK on 09-Mar-2012 at 10:35 AM.

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// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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olegil 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 11:10:15
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@KimmoK

That LCD port is an LVDS (direct connection to typical laptop display).

Not quite the same as DVI. Would need something like this:
http://www.chrontel.com/products/7036.htm

Unless you're targetting an internal LCD, of course.

Any word on the pricing of APM86290? It's missing sound, btw. But it's got a slightly more sensible PCIe setup, with three ports where one is shared with the second SATA. So a simple analog switch onboard could be used to choose if you want SATA or PCIe for that port. Automatically checking in the bootloader first for SATA, then for PCIe should be possible.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Rose 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 11:37:27
#93 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
Any word on the pricing of APM86290? It's missing sound, btw. But it's got a slightly more sensible PCIe setup, with three ports where one is shared with the second SATA. So a simple analog switch onboard could be used to choose if you want SATA or PCIe for that port. Automatically checking in the bootloader first for SATA, then for PCIe should be possible.


$115 for APM86290-SGA1200T 1.5Ghz @avnet minimum order 120pcs.

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KimmoK 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 11:56:04
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@olegil

From some press material I read that it could cost below $30 if purchased 10 000 units. But not dug such price out recently.


for P1022:
http://elcodis.com/parts/3585443/P1022-RDK.html
http://www.em.avnet.com/en-us/design/drc/Pages/Freescale-P1022DS-P1022-P1013-QorIQ-Development-System.aspx

Chip Features
-Dual (P1022) or single (P1013) high-performance Power Architecture e500 cores, 32 KB L1 cache, up to 1200 MHz
-32/64-bit DDR2/DDR3 SDRAM memory controller with ECC support
-256 KB L2 cache with ECC. Also configurable as SRAM and stashing memory
-Two 10/100/1000 Mbps enhanced three-speed Ethernet controllers (eTSECs)
-High-speed interfaces supporting various multiplexing options:
-Six SerDes up to 3.125 GHz multiplexed across controllers
-Three PCI Express® interfaces
-Two SGMII interfaces
-Two serial ATA interfaces
-Dual high-speed USB controllers (USB 2.0)
-LCD interface supporting a display of 1280x1024P @ 60 Hz, 24 bits per pixel
-Integrated security engine
-Protocol support includes SNOW, ARC4, 3DES, AES, RSA/ECC, RNG, single-pass SSL/TLS, Kasumi, XOR acceleration
-eLBC, TDM, I2S, eSDHC, Dual I˛C, DUART, PIC, DMA, GPIO, advanced power management
-Package: 689-pin temperature-enhanced plastic BGA (TEPBGA2)
-The P1022 is included in Freescale’s product longevity program, with assured supply for a minimum of 10 years after launch

Very interesting for low end. (Rasberry killer material... perhaps...)
In retrogaming etc. setup it could be built in small case like LimePC X1, with PCIe external... with twice the performance of SAM460 (once the AOS4.3 with SMP is out).

Last edited by KimmoK on 09-Mar-2012 at 12:49 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 09-Mar-2012 at 12:47 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 09-Mar-2012 at 12:15 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 09-Mar-2012 at 12:01 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 09-Mar-2012 at 12:00 PM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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Arko 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 16:33:32
#95 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@Arko

Given that you insist on GPU included in that price, you've narrowed it down to just one chip. MPC5121e. Too bad. Doable within 50 USD, but at 400MHz not that cool.


I had written GFX you are reading GPU ... strange !

Quote:
And this is hardly DESKTOP, is it?


If there is no PPC chip available that would make such a tiny desktop (of course desktop, because it is not mobile and will find its place on top of a desk) for a hobby market like the ARM, than the PPC might be the wrong architecture to compete with the Rasberry PI.

You see, it is not about Roadmaps for CPUs it is about available systems, total costs and markets. If the PPC can't compete with LowPower Low Cost systems available with ARM or X86, if it can't compete with medium Power Low cost systems like 3GHz desktops I would call this architecture obsolete. If other architectures could do better and cheaper the PPC will be doomed.

Last edited by Arko on 09-Mar-2012 at 04:35 PM.
Last edited by Arko on 09-Mar-2012 at 04:35 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 16:54:47
#96 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO






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asymetrix 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 18:42:14
#97 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 868
From: United Kingdom

@thread

These are great ideas, I hope something gets made, even if people cant agree.

Have a base system, then addon cards for extra features.

Please dont go the slow cpu route.

If you limit the CPU speed, you limit the creative freedom of a developer, it does not matter how fast and efficient your operating system is.

Heavy duty applications and complex algorithms and games need GHZ speeds !

To give an idea what the PS4 expectations are for 2013+

Unreal 3 engine (minimum 2.5 teraflops requirement)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgS67BwPfFY

Quote:

First Look at this Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgS67BwPfFY
According to Epic that demo required 2.5 teraflops wich the ps3 is in capable of but we are already seeing Rapid increase in Teraflops making the next generation capable of such graphics (read Nvidia 2013 roadmap http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/nvidia-reveals-fermis-successor-kepler-at-28nm-in-2011-maxwel/)


Quote:

Xbox360 has been quantified by Epic to be 0.25 Teraflops; or 250 Gigaflops.
For 2005, that was truly incredible for a games console.
The PS3 took a long time to just slightly creep past this performance, but there's not much in it.

7 years later, and a low power 28nm GPU can easily hit 1.0 Teraflops; or 1000 Gigaflops. You could shove that in the Xbox360 right now and you'd hardly notice the TDP difference.
You'd then have the Xbox360 operating at 1.25 Teraflop performance, half way to what Epic is talking about - because the CPU in the Xbox360 is good enough to assist compute performance by the GPU.

However, when you put put these 1 Teraflops GPUs on a RISC architecture with system bandwidths in excess of 70Gb/sec - for instance, 256bit GDDR3 @ 1100Mhz - the power scaling will go right off the chart.
And we're talking of "RIGHT OFF THE CHART".
x86 architecture will never ever be able to do this unless x86 is abandoned.

The easiest way to explain this is that when you remove bottlenecks such as 22.6Gb/sec bandwidths between the CPU and GPU and Memory, and instead, open them up to 70.4Gb/sec (35.2Gb/sec bi-directional bandwidth), you're left with something that will kick the PC out of the "games industry" almost permanently overnight.

This is under the condition that the pixel resolution is 1920x1080 (high resolution textures, DX10.1 full feature set), and you're looking for 60fps at 2.5Teraflop performance.


Quote:

Whilst it is going faster in 10 years, a Cell 16 SPE/SPU would still completely destroy an Intel CISC CPU 10 years from now. (limit reached).
That's how advanced Cell really is.

Cell was nigh impossible to Code for 10 years ago, but now; now things are oh-so-very-different.


1 CELL single p @ 3.2Ghz= 204 GFLOPs.
i5-2500k at 5Ghz single p - falls short of 130 Gigaflops

rumored PS4 specs - around 2013-2014

20nm 4 core CELL CPU @ 3GHZ+ (min 4-core for Physics) 32 SPE/SPU = 1000 Gigaflops double precision.

4-8 GB GDDR6 / XDR 2 memory

20nm GPU, Nvidia (kepler)GeForce GTX 700, 512 bit, 1+ GHz memory, 2 GB of XDR2-VRAM

1080P/3D/60fps, 2.5 Teraflops (2500 Gigaflops). DX11.

Unified Memory (with large aggregate bandwidths; short of 100Gb/sec, but more than 70Gb/sec); 8GB total memory as a minimum standard

GPU (high resolution texture fill rate and draw distance; post-processing effects) [dependant on the type of engine; deferred or otherwise]

USB 3, sata 3

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vox 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 18:50:49
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@WolfToTheMoon

Heavy weight category out of hands of ordinary man?

Well, even IBM went to Crossover of Intel and POWER architectures,
but none is holding the current crown of Fujitsu K computer, which is neither Power nor Intel.

Thanks to IBM development, POWER architecture was quite long on the top in this category. Alongside with console market, its thing to be proud of.

Today consoles can be expanded to great desktops, just if "Boot other OS" option is left. Its great to be able to run Linux on PS3.

While Cell PPE`s are not each top of the power, they prove multiprocessing concept is right giving power in its overall, not individual capacities. So if each is Intel Atom alike, don`t know of 7 or more cores Atom based CPU.

Cell really looks like most promising desktop competing out of currently avail PPCs.

Last edited by vox on 09-Mar-2012 at 06:53 PM.

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jkirk 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 18:58:47
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3349
From: Georgia (usa)

@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote:
@Arko

Ive got a feeling, that nothing will be good enough for you, no matter how many cores and gazillion hertz.

I personally have no need for 4 cores @ +3ghz for typing and websurfing.


maybe you are missing the point. as long as any ppc chip regardless of speed is not available on a ppc BOARD the chip becomes useless.

by the same notion any x86 without a board is useless. oh wait!

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Mechanic 
Re: Is IBM loosing his crown in the PPC and console market?
Posted on 9-Mar-2012 19:09:53
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@jkirk

Quote:

jkirk wrote:
by the same notion any x86 without a board is useless. oh wait!


Oh my, that can't be true.

@arko

You're right.

PPC is not the right CPU for the typical, run of the mill, commodity
hardware pumped out by the millions to average consumers. It is
however the perfect CPU here in Amigaland.

So right for the Amiga style of computing that several successful
upgrades to Amiga's more than 20 years old have been produced and
sold, something, though many attempts have been made, could not be
done with the typical consumer grade general purpose commodity
processors no matter how fast they are touted to be, nor their adverts
boasting of core numbers.

Though your arguments may have merit, they just don't work in Amigaland.
Amiga's have never been typical desktop/laptop/set-top/whatevertop devices
and never will be, and still be Amigas.

Just go ask Apple, Dell, or HP why they don't use PPC and they will tell
you, it is because they don't build Amigas.

Ah well, carry on. Plenty of room in the cloud, even for you.

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