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Aslak3 
SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 7-Sep-2012 19:09:45
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

So I really want an NG amiga but I'm struggling a bit with hardware and perceived Amiga OS4 driver software limitations.

SAM460ex. Sounds great in theory. But I read that the onboard SATA port does not do DMA (making it useless). So you need a 4 port SATA card (Silicon Image 3114 seems a popular choice). Fair enough, but still a shame if you only need one device plugged in.

Also with the SAM460, most people recommend the Radeon HD 4850 card (using up one of the PCIe slots). But apparently overlay mode doesn't work, so full screen video playback is impossible. I should point out that I don't care much about 3D, but need full screen video and a good fast desktop.

Also on the SAM460, apparently the onboard sound is a bit ropey? Is this true?

Then I was looking at the SAM440. It's a slower board, with only PCI slots. But the Radeoon HD 9xxx (forget the exact number of the card that most folks seem to use) does at least do overlay, and is still DVI so should be able to crank out 1050 vertical res screens.

The 440 has 4 SATA ports (woop). Do those do DMA and are they useable? Again, what about the sound?

I hope some can help me figure out what to buy. I'm really not that bothered about having the fastest board, but do need all the hardware to work reliably.

What confuses me the most about these SAM boards is the following: they were (more or less) designed for running Amiga OS4. Why do they not come equipped with onbaord I/O that works well on Amiga OS? Why not make a board with one of the SATA / Sound chips that works well on Amiga OS? Maybe I am missing something obvious. The same, it seems, goes for the board used on the X1000....

In short I'd love to go out and buy a SAM board or a prebuilt machine that uses one, but I am confused and put off by what I am reading about hardware support.

And help greatly appreciated.

Lawrence

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number6 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 7-Sep-2012 19:24:29
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@Aslak3

Quote:
What confuses me the most about these SAM boards is the following: they were (more or less) designed for running Amiga OS4. Why do they not come equipped with onbaord I/O that works well on Amiga OS? Why not make a board with one of the SATA / Sound chips that works well on Amiga OS? Maybe I am missing something obvious. The same, it seems, goes for the board used on the X1000....

In short I'd love to go out and buy a SAM board or a prebuilt machine that uses one, but I am confused and put off by what I am reading about hardware support.


This may not answer your question entirely, but you can compare what was supposed to happen with where we really are...

eXtream was intended as our new audio system

#6

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kamelito 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 7-Sep-2012 20:11:25
#3 ]
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Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 813
From: Unknown

@number6

I suppose that this new sound system never see the light of the day seeing that it was schedule to be released in 2007.

Is it a dead ?
Kamelito

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number6 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 7-Sep-2012 20:16:18
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@kamelit0

Honestly, I think Davy is the only one who can answer that.
I know there was a beta back then, but no idea of how much work would have been required to call it a finished product, much less integrate it in place of AHI as the AmigaOS4.x audio system.

#6

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Spectre660 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 7-Sep-2012 21:08:12
#5 ]
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Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

@Aslak3

Its all about balance and the pace of driver development.

I just received an AmigaOne 500 (based on the Sam460ex motherboard) 2days ago and will run it hard to see how it performs.
It is a lovely small machine. The onboard sound seems to be ok.
I also have a Sam440ep-Flex 800mhz which I use with a PCI to PCIE adapter and the new Radeon HD driver.
So both of my machines are being used in a mode were there is no overlay.
Both can be configured with video cards that support overlay but this an option that is not currently vital to me (For the AMigaone500 this would result in non DMA SATA ).Ffor now I have assembled a PC at a cost of less than US$ 500.00 to do video playback etc. I share one monitor between one SAM and the PC.

With the Amigaone 500 once the onboard SATA driver supports DMA then one will be able to use the PCI slot for a Radeon 9000 series card that supports overlay and have the one SATA device on the onboard SATA port. Also when we get 3D support for the Radeon HD cards in future versions of OS 4 3D functions will be used to replace the overlay for video playback.

One note about the Amigaone500 is that the case is not big enough to hold a Radeon 4850 card. Dont know about AmigaKits prebulit system. Most people have the Radeon HD 4650 which is good enough 2D stuff. When 3D comes they may want more punch.The advantage of getting an AmigOne 500 or Acube's prebuilt system rather than building your own Sam460ex system is that you get a well put together and tested system out of the box.



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eliyahu 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 7-Sep-2012 21:56:52
#6 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1957
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@Aslak3

Quote:
SAM460ex. Sounds great in theory. But I read that the onboard SATA port does not do DMA (making it useless). So you need a 4 port SATA card (Silicon Image 3114 seems a popular choice). Fair enough, but still a shame if you only need one device plugged in.

the other issue there is that there is only one standard PCI slot on the SAM460 -- for some reason you can't boot the system if you use a SIL3114-based card behind a PCI-to-PCIe adapter. the PCIe 1X slot at the moment is sort of useless. unless you can put a sound card there, maybe.

Quote:
Also with the SAM460, most people recommend the Radeon HD 4850 card (using up one of the PCIe slots). But apparently overlay mode doesn't work, so full screen video playback is impossible. I should point out that I don't care much about 3D, but need full screen video and a good fast desktop.

if you need full-screen, full-motion video, you'll need overlay. you won't be happy with using the processor alone in decoding; you'll see frames dropped. again you could always use a 9250 or similar card in the PCI slot, but i'm not sure you can actually boot with that being your sole video card.

of course all of this becomes moot once OS4.2 ships with, presumably, the ability to use the full facilities of radeon HD cards. textured video should get you what you want; but again, you have to wait.

and no one knows how soon OS4.2 will see the light of day. well, no one who's talking.

Quote:
Also on the SAM460, apparently the onboard sound is a bit ropey? Is this true?

reports are mixed. some report everything is now fine with the latest drivers.

Quote:
Then I was looking at the SAM440. It's a slower board, with only PCI slots. But the Radeoon HD 9xxx (forget the exact number of the card that most folks seem to use) does at least do overlay, and is still DVI so should be able to crank out 1050 vertical res screens.

yes. ironically you'll achieve better video performance with the slower system. be warned, though, that modern formats like MP4 and others are a bit of an ask on this machine. i have a SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz -- and i love it. but is the least performance NG amiga out there currently if you want to purchase a new system.

Quote:
The 440 has 4 SATA ports (woop). Do those do DMA and are they useable? Again, what about the sound?

yes they all support DMA; yes the sound works well. in fact SATA performance on the SAM440-based machines is brilliant.

Quote:
I hope some can help me figure out what to buy. I'm really not that bothered about having the fastest board, but do need all the hardware to work reliably.

What confuses me the most about these SAM boards is the following: they were (more or less) designed for running Amiga OS4. Why do they not come equipped with onbaord I/O that works well on Amiga OS? Why not make a board with one of the SATA / Sound chips that works well on Amiga OS? Maybe I am missing something obvious. The same, it seems, goes for the board used on the X1000....

In short I'd love to go out and buy a SAM board or a prebuilt machine that uses one, but I am confused and put off by what I am reading about hardware support.

i have no idea why driver development for the SAM460 has taken as long as it has. it is a terrific machine if the on-board SATA2 port had DMA capability and working sound and video overlay or some equivalent. but it doesn't. the good news is that all of those things will be fixed. so if you don't mind waiting, it'll be a great system. but asking 800+ GBP for a system still hobbled by lack of software support is a bit much.

i'm waiting for OS4.2 before purchasing a SAM460, myself.

in the mean time you might well be happy enough with a SAM440ep-flex. they're well supported, everything works, and they're fair and away the cheapest new amiga NG system available. but they aren't exactly screamers.

have you considered purchasing a used system? amigaone XE and pegasos2 boards come on the market every now and again, and work great. you'll want to purchase a SATA card and a USB2 card for them (they only support the older IDE and USB1.1 standards with on-board controllers), but they're fast and everything works on them so far. the downside is that the amiga world is moving on to openGL, radeon HD video, and other technologies. exactly the sort of new technologies the SAM460 (and the X1000) bring to the table.

if you can't make up your mind, i highly suggest going to one of the user group meetings held regularly around london. if you contact them in advance, i'm sure one of the members would agree to bring their SAM440 or SAM460, and you can try them out in person. or you could always hop in the car and drive to cardiff and visit amigakit.

good luck, and let us know what you decide.

-- eliyahu

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Arko 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 7-Sep-2012 22:04:12
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Aslak3

Quote:

Aslak3 wrote:
So I really want an NG amiga but I'm struggling a bit with hardware and perceived Amiga OS4 driver software limitations.


I heard PegasosII and AmigaOne ans µA1 have a quite good driver support under AOS4.1, and they are faster than a Sam460 when they are equipped with a G4.

Last edited by Arko on 07-Sep-2012 at 10:04 PM.

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wawa 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 7-Sep-2012 22:17:31
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Arko

Quote:
I heard PegasosII and AmigaOne ans µA1 have a quite good driver support under AOS4.1, and they are faster than a Sam460 when they are equipped with a G4.

wouldnt bet on it. for instance apparently the lan stack is crashy when transferring huge amounts of data under dma (was tested against morphos and debian on the same machine):
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32846&page=7
not entirely peg related since there are a1 users in the thread seeming to have the same problem, apparently generic os4 driver issue. but if one doesnt stress network too much he could get away with it.

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Rob 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 2:04:18
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@Aslak3

The driver for the on board video chip has overlay support but the cards limited to 1280x1024 and 2D performance slower than Radeon HD and Radeon9x00 series cards,

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realize 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 2:31:00
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: nyc

@op

Dont get an A1 a lot of them are reaching end of expected life.

DO get a Peg2.. its the best platform for OS4 besides x1000 atm!

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Arko 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 7:19:32
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@Arko

Quote:
I heard PegasosII and AmigaOne ans µA1 have a quite good driver support under AOS4.1, and they are faster than a Sam460 when they are equipped with a G4.

wouldnt bet on it. for instance apparently the lan stack is crashy when transferring huge amounts of data under dma ... .


I would never write something like this, because negative messages are usually called "trolling" . So I just pointed out some things that might be better on other hardware.

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I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Trixie 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 7:32:10
#12 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2089
From: Czech Republic

@Aslak3

Quote:
Then I was looking at the SAM440. It's a slower board, with only PCI slots. But the Radeon HD 9xxx (forget the exact number of the card that most folks seem to use)

Most Sam440ep-flex owners use a Radeon 9250, which is not a HD card.

Quote:
so should be able to crank out 1050 vertical res screens.

What? I wouldn't bother if it only did 1050 vertical! I do 1920x1200 over the DVI.

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SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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joeled 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 7:48:25
#13 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Dec-2007
Posts: 724
From: Uppsala, Sweden

Quote:
Also on the SAM460, apparently the onboard sound is a bit ropey? Is this true?

Its okay, but i wonder when the next update will come or is it done? Will it take two more years to get it finished? Soon it will be four months since the latest driver.

Quote:
the other issue there is that there is only one standard PCI slot on the SAM460 -- for some reason you can't boot the system if you use a SIL3114-based card behind a PCI-to-PCIe adapter. the PCIe 1X slot at the moment is sort of useless. unless you can put a sound card there, maybe.

Its useless and we dont know if Acube are working on something or their plans.

Quote:
i have no idea why driver development for the SAM460 has taken as long as it has. it is a terrific machine if the on-board SATA2 port had DMA capability and working sound and video overlay or some equivalent. but it doesn't. the good news is that all of those things will be fixed. so if you don't mind waiting, it'll be a great system. but asking 800+ GBP for a system still hobbled by lack of software support is a bit much.

Yes, its ridicilous that it takes so long. Alot of people are byuing sam460 so its a popular amiga but it would be nice if they could update it with dma on the onboard sata etc or will that take 2-3 more years?

After all i m happy with my Amigaone500(sam460)but lack of news abt updating it makes it a bit sad.

@Aslak3
I recommend that you buy a SAM460/AmigaOne500.

Last edited by joeled on 08-Sep-2012 at 07:50 AM.
Last edited by joeled on 08-Sep-2012 at 07:49 AM.

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kyle 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 8:12:35
#14 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Oct-2006
Posts: 866
From: Livorno, Italy

@joeled

Acube is actively working on the internal sata2 port of 460.
I hope we'll have soon some news.

http://amiga.ikirsector.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=16925&start=45

Also the onboard sound now is ok, I don't know if there will be new releases of the drive (I suppose yes)

Last edited by kyle on 08-Sep-2012 at 12:05 PM.

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joeled 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 9:11:20
#15 ]
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Joined: 25-Dec-2007
Posts: 724
From: Uppsala, Sweden

@kyle

I cant read italian but thanks Any news abt optimaztion for sam460?

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ChrisH 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 9:24:20
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@Aslak3 Quote:
apparently overlay mode doesn't work, so full screen video playback is impossible.

If your video is close to a real screen resolution then it WILL be full screen. For example, a 640x480 video will be shown full-screen, because there is a 640x480 screenmode. But if it had been 512x384, then it would not use the whole screen. However, you could probably fix that by creating a suitable screenmode (very easy, although below 640x480 won't work on some monitors).

However, lack of overlay may increase CPU load when decoding video. Whether that is an issue given the Sam460's fairly decent CPU, I don't know.

Quote:
The 440 has 4 SATA ports (woop). Do those do DMA and are they useable? Again, what about the sound?

The 440's hardware is fully supported. So yes they do DMA (I got around 100MB/sec with a good harddrive). And yes, sound is fine, although apparently it isn't good enough for some audio purists (it sounds perfect to me), just make sure you disable audio *inputs* in the Mixer as these can pick-up noise.

Quote:
What confuses me the most about these SAM boards is the following: they were (more or less) designed for running Amiga OS4.

No. I think it would be more accurate to say they were HALF designed for running AmigaOS4, while the other half of the intention was a plain PPC systems for some industrial customer(s). Hence wierdness like two ethernet ports on the Sam440 (which causes no end of confusion), or only one SATA port on the Sam460.


As far as choosing a Sam440 vs Sam460. The Sam440 is a great little machine, but don't expect to play a fancy 3D game like Quake 3. (Quake 2 works pretty well, but that is about it's limit.) Also, DVD playback is a bit borderline (widescreen is not completely smooth, although I don't notice any problems with 4:3 and/or animated videos). But apart from that it seems fine to me.

Oh, and beware the original Sam440 (before the Flex) has only 64MB of onboard video ram, and it has a maximum resolution (beyond what I use but I don't have an insanely large monitor). The Sam440 *Flex* would be the better choice, especially if you can get a 733MHz model (should help with DVD playback, etc).

Last edited by ChrisH on 08-Sep-2012 at 09:25 AM.

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Aslak3 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 9:26:35
#17 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

@Trixie

Depends on your definition of HD I guess. My definition is anything above 1280x1024. Typically widescreen with vertical res of 1050, 1080 or 1200. I have no idea what HD in the context of PCIe Gfx cards means, but I'm guessing it's dreamed up by their marketing department.

Lawrence

Last edited by Aslak3 on 08-Sep-2012 at 10:17 AM.

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Spectre660 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 10:16:26
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

@joeled

I am now an AmigaOne 500 user too.

From Bing Translation of what MAx posted :

Yes, the 460 controller works in PIO mode. With regard to the implementation of DMA, we had a couple of false starts, we hope now to be on the right track ... (there are reasons why it is not so easy to implement DMA, then as soon as I'll have time, I will explain better)

Quote:

joeled wrote:
@kyle

I cant read italian but thanks Any news abt optimaztion for sam460?

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Aslak3 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 10:16:52
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

ChrisH wrote:
Quote:

If your video is close to a real screen resolution then it WILL be full screen. For example, a 640x480 video will be shown full-screen, because there is a 640x480 screenmode. But if it had been 512x384, then it would not use the whole screen. However, you could probably fix that by creating a suitable screenmode (very easy, although below 640x480 won't work on some monitors).

However, lack of overlay may increase CPU load when decoding video. Whether that is an issue given the Sam460's fairly decent CPU, I don't know.


That's an interesting way round the problem. Totally forgot about that. I've clearly used macs for too damn long! Most of my videos are non hd tv shows and the odd DVD rip.

Quote:

The 440's hardware is fully supported. So yes they do DMA (I got around 100MB/sec with a good harddrive). And yes, sound is fine, although apparently it isn't good enough for some audio purists (it sounds perfect to me), just make sure you disable audio *inputs* in the Mixer as these can pick-up noise.


That's great to know!

Quote:

Quote:
What confuses me the most about these SAM boards is the following: they were (more or less) designed for running Amiga OS4.

No. I think it would be more accurate to say they were HALF designed for running AmigaOS4, while the other half of the intention was a plain PPC systems for some industrial customer(s). Hence wierdness like two ethernet ports on the Sam440 (which causes no end of confusion), or only one SATA port on the Sam460.


I kinda see where you are coming from. I guess the switch to one SATA port was a cost cutting measure and it just happened that they switched chip at the same time. Still, very annoying.

And the same argument doesn't hold for the x1000 board... Which as far a I've read is completely special purpose but still has some unsupported parts. Really strange IMO. (and Im not referring to multiple CPU cores or the 4GB memory problem but stuff like sound and storage.)

Quote:

As far as choosing a Sam440 vs Sam460. The Sam440 is a great little machine, but don't expect to play a fancy 3D game like Quake 3. (Quake 2 works pretty well, but that is about it's limit.) Also, DVD playback is a bit borderline (widescreen is not completely smooth, although I don't notice any problems with 4:3 and/or animated videos). But apart from that it seems fine to me.


That sounds perfect. I'm not planning on binning my mac lappy If I want to do things like play games I have a wii... What I want us a good development computer which just happens to be fast enough to play the odd movie when I need a break.

It sounds like a 1GB SAM440 flex with a radeon 9250 will meet my needs. Should give me xxxx by 1050 (or is it 1080 on my dell LCD can't remember). With enough clout to play most AVIs, and above all the hardware works NOW.

The other advantage of the 440 is I can mount it in a smaller case and if I used a SSD I should have a nice quiet computer.

I will find out about the peg2 though. It sounds like an interesting alternative. And I actually have most of the other parts to get it running...

Thanks! Now to see who still stocks the '440. Looks like I might need to use acube after all.....

Lawrence

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: SAM440 vs SAM460 and what to do
Posted on 8-Sep-2012 10:29:32
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Arko

Quote:

I heard PegasosII and AmigaOne-XE G4/G3 ans µA1 have a quite good driver support under AOS4.1, and they are faster than a Sam460 when they are equipped with a G4.


my 1GHz AmigaONE-XE is slower in almost every thing.

G4 has Altivec is helps in some applications but not in most,
Sam460 has many times faster RAM it helps in all applications, and also PCIe is way faster the old PCI66/AGP2 bus.

Graphic card that has Overlay (Radeon 9250) is way superior to software scaling, only a few % to show the video no matter if the video cover big screen resolution or small one, it uses the same % of CPU, (But you can't play HD video, due to amount of data to process)

Besides the form factor and connectivity the Sam460 is a better machine.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Sep-2012 at 10:34 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Sep-2012 at 10:31 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Sep-2012 at 10:30 AM.

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