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pavlor 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 26-Dec-2012 23:05:40
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:
If it runs MorphOS then it will be amiga too.


If you think so.

Quote:
I dont see point in multicore support currently.


Some Applications (eg. Blender) are good suited for multiple cores. It is realy waste of power, when your computer offers 4 cores and you can use only one. Even current PowerPC CPUs have multiple-cores (not even counting x86 or ARM world).

Quote:
AROS doesnt have it either and amiga programs dont scale well...


...and AppleIIGS OS can´t use harddrives bigger than 32 MB...

Multitasking is nice feature, multiple cores make it even more useful.

Quote:
But essentially amiga api is not at that level.


I still hope for miracles (AmigaOS 4.2).

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itix 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 7:04:11
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@pavlor

Quote:
Quote:

AROS doesnt have it either and amiga programs dont scale well...


...and AppleIIGS OS can´t use harddrives bigger than 32 MB...

Multitasking is nice feature, multiple cores make it even more useful.


Perhaps you are using wrong OS. Your wishlist is endless. You want wifi, you want laptop, you want 3D, you want SMP, you want more drivers, you want more software but you never realize that no Amiga is ever going to satisfy you. There is always something you wish you could have on Amiga but it is "few months" away.

I wish I had my Peg2 so I could donate that machine to you and let you try OS4.

Last edited by itix on 27-Dec-2012 at 07:05 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 8:50:26
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@itix

Without going multicore, there is no way to get more RAW performance.
G5 is the fastest single core in PPC world (for dekstop).

And if one ports a OS to another architecture, it does not change things in any signifficant way.

So, also IMO, multicore support need to happen soon, otherwise evolution of Amiga-like OSs & SW will slow down (even more) or die.


(next gen PPCs are 2x faster per Mhz than current ones, but if we manage enable multicore support in our OSs, we get up to 24x more RAW computing performance. We would no longer be decade behind mainstream in RAW performance (only a little).)

Last edited by KimmoK on 27-Dec-2012 at 08:56 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 27-Dec-2012 at 08:51 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 27-Dec-2012 at 08:51 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 9:11:41
#44 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@KimmoK

Quote:
Without going multicore, there is no way to get more RAW
performance.


why, exactly, would you want more performance than an single G5 could offer? On Amiga NG there aren't any pro applications, neither there will be. The focus should be on dev software, OS features, getting cheaper hardware... not porting OS every 2 years on some exotic PPC CPU and a new MB just to run Quake a bit faster.

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pavlor 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 9:12:47
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:
Perhaps you are using wrong OS.


Quote:
You want wifi, you want laptop, you want 3D, you want SMP, you want more drivers, you want more software but you never realize that no Amiga is ever going to satisfy you.


I didn´t wrote I need these features right now, I meant it will be neccessary to implement them sometime in future. If you say MorphOS will be never able to use more than one CPU core, then maybe you are using wrong OS.

Quote:
I wish I had my Peg2 so I could donate that machine to you and let you try OS4.


Thank you for your charity.
But I have enough funds to satisfy my computer needs (would X1000 sell for less than 2000 EUR, I would have one ).

As loyal supporter of Amiga.Inc I´am used to wait for bright tomorrows.

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pavlor 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 9:17:25
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
why, exactly, would you want more performance than an single G5 could offer? On Amiga NG there aren't any pro applications, neither there will be.


I mentioned Blender, there are other applications that could benefit from multi-core - eg. Timberwolf and other UNIX ports. Even ability to run non-threaded applications on different cores would be realy nice (eg. MPlayer on one, dnet on another etc.).

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 9:32:59
#47 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@pavlor

Firefox runs pretty nice on my ancient Sempron 1.4 GHz 512 MB RAM x86 setup. I believe it's not more horsepower that Timberwolf needs, it's better software optimization and usage of existing hardware. As to UNIX ports... well, use UNIX to run them.

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pavlor 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 9:48:23
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
As to UNIX ports... well, use UNIX to run them.


No, thanks. I rather use something more user friendly.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 10:00:14
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@pavlor

The thing is... those UNIX apps will run faster and far more stable on UNIX.


Fab showed with Odyssey Web browser that good, modern useful native apps are possible, even by a single developer. With better dev tools and OS API, more could be possible. Ported buggy apps from UNIX or Win world make no sense.

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KimmoK 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 10:01:31
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@WolfToTheMoon

>why, exactly, would you want more performance than an single G5 could offer?

-Many things just work faster with faster system.

The fastest x86 in our family is 2Ghz dualcore (AMD64x2-3800+) and two examples from that:
-firefox is sometimes slow (maxes out CPU usage on some pages, etc.)
-dvd & mp4 encoding+decoding takes long time

and other advantages of multicore chips:
-multicore systems are more energy efficient than single core systems (for the same performance)

> On Amiga NG there aren't any pro applications, neither there will be.

There is and there will be. Some of them need CPU power, some do not.

And it does not require any "pro" application to use all possible CPU power.

But more CPU performance gives more possibilities for SW porting and new SW development. 1Ghz is not enough for everything.

>The focus should be on dev software, OS features, getting cheaper hardware...

We need also "in production" HW (especially important for those that use Amiga HW professionally). Also I prefer new vs old. For that: It starts to be hard to find single core chips and then it's insane to not to use the second core.

>not porting OS every 2 years on some exotic PPC CPU and a new MB

Not related?

Better not to waste resources in reverse engineering old HW (for OS porting) when new, documented HW is possible?

_________________
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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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pavlor 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 10:05:11
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
The thing is... those UNIX apps will run faster and far more stable on UNIX.


The thing is... I don´t like UNIX (except in cases when Linux helped to save my data from Windows PC).

Quote:
Fab showed with Odyssey Web browser that good, modern useful native apps are possible, even by a single developer.


Fab even made some X-Window port (like AmiCygnix), but was too proud to release it ("non-native" application...). So MorphOS has the same word processing capabilities as my 486SX notebook (plain text editor). Compare it to AmiCygnix and its apps on OS4 (AbiWord etc.). My piont is: it is better to have useable applications now (even not so native), than never.

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AP 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 10:35:29
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 617
From: Vienna/Austria

@pavlor: "So MorphOS has the same word processing capabilities as my 486SX notebook (plain text editor)."

You can use much more on MorphOS than a "plain text-editor" (there is an very good text-editor in MorphOS 3.1, a native text-app in the works and a lot of 68k-Amiga text-apps you can use (beside Google docs).

The point is: You are comparing two OSes you don´t know and don´t use. I use both of them and can compare.

Believe it or not: While I still like AmigaOS4, MorphOS is advanced in many areas (boot-time, speed, compatibility, more modern desktop, 3D, better hardware-situation).

Why don´t you buy a cheap Pegasos II and use and compare them NOW (you can use the MorphOS-demo without paying for it) instead of speculating and hope for miracles in the future?

"As loyal supporter of Amiga.Inc"(your words) you should know, that plans and promises are no guarantee for real actions or improvements.

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pavlor 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 10:41:42
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@AP

Quote:
You can use much more on MorphOS than a "plain text-editor" (there is an very good text-editor in MorphOS 3.1, a native text-app in the works and a lot of 68k-Amiga text-apps you can use (beside Google docs).


Footnotes and MS World compatibility, that is all I need. Sure, Apps you mentioned are capable of that...

Only Amiga-like OS with full MS Word compatibility is AROS - through DosBox, Windows95 and Office97.

Quote:
Believe it or not: While I still like AmigaOS4, MorphOS is advanced in many areas


Without doubt.

Quote:
"As loyal supporter of Amiga.Inc"(your words) you should know, that plans and promises are no guarantee for real actions or improvements


Of course. That is why I´m last of my kind here on AW (after Linnar left for CommodoreUSA).


Edit: I think I went a little bit OT. Sorry.

Last edited by pavlor on 27-Dec-2012 at 10:45 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 14:55:26
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@AP

"better hardware-situation"

MOS does not yet support any HW that is in production or available as new. SAM460 hopefully solves that, though. And then I think MOS HW situation is better than AOS4's. Not yet.

@pavlor

"Only Amiga-like OS with full MS Word compatibility is AROS - through DosBox, Windows95 and Office97."

Surely Linux can be run in emulation in AROS? Then OpenOffice gives better word compatibility than Office97. (another option is latest word under wine under emulation etc..)

And the real killer must be AEROS, one day, it is capable to run every application there is, I believe.

Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Dec-2012 at 08:57 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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pavlor 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 3-Jan-2013 16:33:50
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

Piru posted new PowerMac G5 benchmarks (post 28)

Benchmarks were updated again. After some tweaking 2.0GHz G5 lame is now 2secs faster (using the latest lame version with altivec patch and built for G5 specifically).

Also, the graphs now include 2.5GHz G5 results from my Power Mac G5. 9 seconds for lame, 39.9 seconds for mplayer.

http://sintonen.fi/pics/lame_benchmark.png
http://sintonen.fi/pics/mplayer_benchmark.png


For comparison results of SKOLMAN_MWS (post 18 in this thread)

Lame 3.99.5 on Mac Mini G4 1.42 GHz and MacOS X: 14s

G5 2 GHz is only less than 30 % faster than G4 1.42 GHz in lame benchmark.


Note: Piru´s graphs mix more lame versions in one picture without any comment (eg. G4 result is with older lame).

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Spirantho 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 3-Jan-2013 16:58:13
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2004
Posts: 1044
From: Aberystwyth, Wales

@pavlor

That's why I don't understand why he insists on comparing to the X1000 which is on a different OS and a different version of a program. Makes no sense.

Unless he's doing it for propaganda, of course.

I wish people would drop the red vs blue benchmarking nonsense. Surely it's enough to compare the G5 with G4 running the same OS and program?

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AP 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 3-Jan-2013 17:01:47
#57 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 617
From: Vienna/Austria

@KimmoK

Quote:
MOS does not yet support any HW that is in production or available as new. SAM460 hopefully solves that, though. And then I think MOS HW situation is better than AOS4's. Not yet.


You already mentioned the SAM460-port of MorphOS, which is in the works. But even without that: You can choose from a wide range of MorphOS capable hardware, which is more powerful and costs less than a SAM 460 (and a X1000, which is already abandoned). You even have a MorphOS-Notebook (Powerbook G4), while the AmigaOS4-netbook is just an announcement. Here in Germany and Austria you can even buy used Mac-hardware with 1 year warranty from Mac-dealers, if you wish so.

Sorry to say that, but with the discontinued, premium-prized X1000 in mind, the MorphOS hardware situation now is MUCH better in comparison with AmigaOS4, even without SAM 460.

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AP 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 3-Jan-2013 17:15:03
#58 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 617
From: Vienna/Austria

@Spirantho: What is the problem with benchmarks between AmigaOS4- and MorphOS-hardware? Both OSes have the same background, do the same (provide a modern version of AmigaOS with integrated 68k-emulation) and are fishing in the same "market" (Amiga-user). So for someone, who hasn´t chosen yet, it may be interesting to compare, what hardware is available for AmigaOS4 and MorphOS and how this hardware performs.

In what I agree with you: If you compare, you should use the same version of a program.

I can only speak for my self: As someone, who can´t afford an AmigaOne X1000 now (which isn´t available for the future, anyway) and don´t want to wait for the AmigaOS4-netbook forever, Mac-hardware with MorphOS is more and more attractive. I had the chance to compare MorphOS and AmigaOS4 on my PegasosII, and although there are things, I like on AmigaOS4 more, MorphOS 3.1 is a really fast and good NG-AmigaOS with interesting hardware-options. My first MorphOS-only hardware will be a Powerbook G4 in the near future and the G5 as cheap HiEnd-PPC-hardware looks interesting, too.

Last edited by AP on 03-Jan-2013 at 05:18 PM.
Last edited by AP on 03-Jan-2013 at 05:17 PM.

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Spirantho 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 3-Jan-2013 18:16:18
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2004
Posts: 1044
From: Aberystwyth, Wales

@AP

Quote:

AP wrote:
@Spirantho: What is the problem with benchmarks between AmigaOS4- and MorphOS-hardware? Both OSes have the same background, do the same (provide a modern version of AmigaOS with integrated 68k-emulation) and are fishing in the same "market" (Amiga-user). So for someone, who hasn´t chosen yet, it may be interesting to compare, what hardware is available for AmigaOS4 and MorphOS and how this hardware performs.


So why don't they include benchmarks for AROS too? Cheaper than a G5 Mac and the results would slaughter all of them. The point is these benchmarks mean nothing, and if you want I could create some fictitious benchmarks too.

Quote:

In what I agree with you: If you compare, you should use the same version of a program.


Not only that, but it should be clearly stated as to what system was doing what. The "benchmarks" are clearly designed to mislead and misinform. It doesn't say the version of the OS, the version of the software, available memory, hard disk type/speed, what else was running.. all these things matter. Take a look at TomsHardware or something like that where they give a complete breakdown of the benchmarked system. This is necessary for any benchmarks comparing systems.

These X1000 "benchmarks" belong in these graphs as much as an Ubuntu PC does - i.e. not at all - at least as long as there's no information on the relevant systems. For all we know he could have been encoding an MP3 onto a floppy disk. If you're not going to compare like with like, then you shouldn't be releasing the results.

Quote:

I can only speak for my self: As someone, who can´t afford an AmigaOne X1000 now (which isn´t available for the future, anyway) and don´t want to wait for the AmigaOS4-netbook forever, Mac-hardware with MorphOS is more and more attractive. I had the chance to compare MorphOS and AmigaOS4 on my PegasosII, and although there are things, I like on AmigaOS4 more, MorphOS 3.1 is a really fast and good NG-AmigaOS with interesting hardware-options. My first MorphOS-only hardware will be a Powerbook G4 in the near future and the G5 as cheap HiEnd-PPC-hardware looks interesting, too.


I'm glad that MOS is expanding with the G5 platform, really. But I don't see why they some of them seem to insist on trying to rubbish the other platforms by releasing completely meaningless "benchmarks", rather than concentrating on themselves. They should be pushing themselves forward rather than saying "my computer can beat up your computer, so ner-ne-ner-ne-ner-ner".

AmigaOS 4 and MOS aren't competitors in the grand scheme of things, they're allies - but some people seem insistent on trying to start holy wars, and it just really annoys me given the small size of the market and how while some of the users are trying so hard to build bridges between communities, others spend most of their time sniping at what they perceive as the enemy.

Sorry for the rant but I get really fed up with engineered "benchmarks" that are basically works of fiction.

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itix 
Re: Powermac G5 port
Posted on 3-Jan-2013 18:23:44
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@pavlor

Yup. Luckily there is G5 @ 2.5GHz.

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