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number6 
Evert Carton speaks About Cooperation
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 1:53:11
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10743
From: In the village

Hopefully with the posts removed that caused the moving of this thread off the front page. I'm trying to be overly cautious here, so forgive me if I have not inserted a missing post anyone feels was on topic for this thread.
______________________________________________________________________________

jorit2

@paolone

Quote:

paolone wrote:
@Daedalus

[quote] So the problem won't be that someone "stole" the name we are all fond of, but that our rants will be reduced to what they really are: un-influential, pointless little complaints from a little, microscopic community over the IT world.



I don't know if you remember this post of yours ... but I bookmarked it ...

fixed link

It reminded me then and now of the closing scene in the animated movie "Antz"

A movie full of drama and wars and what not ... But in the closing scene, the camera zooms out and you get the perspective of the drama and the wars.

I added the black square to focus on the tiny little anthill, the setting of the movie ...





______________________________________________________________________________

pavlor

@jorit2

Reply in 2 years old thread? Nice grave robbing.
So colourful memories to read again our heated discussion back then... It is sad some faces left AW for good.

______________________________________________________________________________

OlafS25

@jorit2

I also found these kind of threads here and on other sites, you do not have to dig deep. But to use your analogy, a couple of ants are weak but when they become more and more ants can become a power.

______________________________________________________________________________

jorit2

OlafS25 wrote:
@jorit2

I also found these kind of threads here and on other sites, you do not have to dig deep. But to use your analogy, a couple of ants are weak but when they become more and more ants can become a power.



I agree ... The cool thing about ants is not that they become a power when they become more and more ... what's really fascinating is what they can do when they work together ... and how they instinctively start working together.

I find this an extraordinary video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A042J0IDQK4

______________________________________________________________________________

Please continue your discussion.

#6

Last edited by Darrin on 06-Apr-2013 at 02:15 PM.
Last edited by number6 on 06-Apr-2013 at 02:15 AM.

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Rudei 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 1:59:28
#2 ]
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Joined: 20-Nov-2002
Posts: 3577
From: Dallas, Texas

@number6

I'm sorry, but wtf?

Rude!

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resle 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 2:25:52
#3 ]
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Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

Advanced Techniques for Timewasting, vol. 1

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Dirk-B 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 2:39:52
#4 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1180
From: Belgium

@number6

My own conclusion when seeing this litle documentary is
that the queen is saved thanks to the user-base. But they
need also a portion of calculated luck and lots of drive.

Are we the ants and amigaos is our queen?

When will we hit land?

...

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SlayeR__ 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 2:50:45
#5 ]
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Joined: 24-Dec-2002
Posts: 634
From: Unknown

@number6

Is this a discussion about cooperation and it's benefits ?, if so i suggest the title changed to "Evert Carton speaks about cooperation".

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number6 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 2:54:50
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10743
From: In the village

@SlayeR__

Quote:
Is this a discussion about cooperation and it's benefits ?, if so i suggest the title changed to "Evert Carton speaks about cooperation".


We think alike on that one. That was what I was typing...
when I realized this could end up with a more general discussion.
Not knowing...I left it a general title for now.

#6

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Dirk-B 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 3:08:53
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1180
From: Belgium

@SlayeR__

Cooperation is a good idea.

Rich or poor, high class or low class, everybody
puts a little part in it and so the project is from
everybody for everybody.

Here in Belgium they have recently started up a
new bank from the people for the people.

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wawa 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 3:21:08
#8 ]
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Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@jorit

ok, i dont know the movie so im not sure if i get the whole message with all implications, while the alegory is rather generic... obviously any fight is insignificant from outside perspective.

for instance what about the queens? i mean, ant societies are not freely reconfigurable, if a queen dies, her following is doomed. it cannot adapt to this circumstance and choose another from amongst themselves or be convinced to obey some outsider, so far i know.

therefore im not sure if i can identify myself with an ant in this context (even though i like ants!). for me amiga was effectively an anarchistic idea, at least what become of it, not a strongly ruled elitist following of a commercial company, like its used to refer to what apple users are. this, perhaps, becuase the company was too weak and the users had to substitute for the lack of leadership (which is good imho). therefore todays logical consequence of what is left of this "amiga" movement must be open source, reconfigurable and adaptable, classless , spontaneous community, bare loyalities.

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wawa 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 3:27:58
#9 ]
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Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@Dirk-B

Quote:
My own conclusion when seeing this litle documentary is that the queen is saved thanks to the user-base. But they need also a portion of calculated luck and lots of drive. Are we the ants and amigaos is our queen?


im not sure if being compared to ants, their queens and wars was meant as something positive. rather critical.

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Dirk-B 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 3:51:40
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1180
From: Belgium

@wawa

Most people see only critical (negative) things, as this is
how things are remembered to survive. But seeing it in a
possive way and remembering the good and bad things is
a much better aproge.

I have no problem to scale myself down to a working ant
because if i know that everybody does the same effort
(puts for example 10 euro/dollar/gold into the project) that
we will (have to) succeed in the end. Also because the
project is then from everybody and everybody can give their
input to choose the best way to go on the go.

The best way is not to fight with all the different camps but
to combine the powers to reach a goal.

Last edited by Dirk-B on 06-Apr-2013 at 04:05 AM.
Last edited by Dirk-B on 06-Apr-2013 at 03:57 AM.
Last edited by Dirk-B on 06-Apr-2013 at 03:53 AM.

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wawa 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 4:35:26
#11 ]
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Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@Dirk-B

Quote:
Most people see only critical (negative) things, as this is how things are remembered to survive. But seeing it in a possive way and remembering the good and bad things is a much better aproge.


why? i most certainly dont only remember or experience only negative things about amiga. see what ive posted to evert above:
"therefore todays logical consequence of what is left of this "amiga" movement must be open source, reconfigurable and adaptable, classless , spontaneous community, bare loyalities." this is an outline what i consider to make sense for us today, what works and is fun, and doesnt demand of us to reduce ourselves to ants, whatever skills or preferences we had.

Quote:
I have no problem to scale myself down to a working ant because if i know that everybody does the same effort (puts for example 10 euro/dollar/gold into the project) that we will (have to) succeed in the end. Also because the project is then from everybody and everybody can give their input to choose the best way to go on the go.


this part of our activity is so to say freelance, so i accept no duties and also do not demand that from others. im fine with a little sacrifice if need be but i must be convinced that this is good for the whole community not just elitist interests.

Quote:
The best way is not to fight with all the different camps but to combine the powers to reach a goal.

true, but who defines the goal? more specificly there is no goal, as there is no gral to find. there is only little particular practical goals we can cooperate on. if you want "one common goal" you are reffering to some by definition unreachable abstract idea, that effectively has no impact. usually it is just this "dreaming" and "hoping" we hear about so much, and which would be more appropriate towards something more romantic than computers.

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jorit2 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 5:52:33
#12 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 235
From: Unknown

@all ...

You boys ...

I just wanted to make a retrospective comment about the fighting ... and how futile it all is in the big scheme of things ...
I took the animated movie, not the documentary, as an, IMHO, fitting analogy ...
I lifted the comment from a now notorious thread, seemed fitting, and thereby bumping the thread itself ...
Obviously with what I've seen over the years in mind, and what I have seen myself this very week ...

For those not familiar with the movie: It's a movie about drama and wars and ... in an ant community. At the end, with the camera zooming out ... you can see how futile and small that community of ants really is ... in the big world.

Well, since the movie was obviously not made with the Amiga community in mind ... the movie is clearly a reflection on mankind ... about our wars ... and how futile it all really is in the big scheme of things.

It was simply an analogy, one I liked, and a confirmation of Paolones original comment.

Then came the comment from OlafS25 about .. the ants ... however small they may be, they become powerful when there are many of them.

It veered a little from the original intent of my comment, but I did like it and wanted to show that it was not the size of the group that matters but one of cooperation. Not contradicting the post by OlafS25 but rather elaborating on it.

And by then this has turned into a discussion about cooperation

Of course, when I do make a comment about the drama and the wars and the futility of it all, it does imply an underlying statement about how it think it would be good to cooperate, but that was not the intention of my original post ...

Anyway, this has been debated at length before, and I can't see myself bringing any new and useful arguments to the table other than a rather meaningless "of course cooperation would be good !"

As Wawa points out and as the previous debates on this matter have shown, it is not that easy, and I'm not gonna take a stance on that one.

But please don't restrain yourself


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wawa 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 6:14:35
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@jorit2
rest assured that it is not all infighting that goes on around whatever people here consider "amiga". the community has absolutely enjoyable sides, which might not be emphasized by what and how is going on in here, but also a little discussion isnt always wrong to sharpen the wits and reconsider. ;)

btw, is it really you who posted on moo? i bet, yes.. i never use that site, because its hard to verify the identity of posters, but its sometimes fun to read.

Last edited by wawa on 06-Apr-2013 at 06:25 AM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 8:00:46
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3404
From: Unknown

@number6

cooperation is good!
Please, change the title as suggested.

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OlafS25 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 10:06:42
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5614
From: Unknown

@Dirk-B

+1

User identify the different OSs mainly with the User Interface (Wanderer, Ambient, Workbench) but that is wrong because the backbone is the OS, the API with the different Libraries, Devices, support of USB, PCI and so on. They are mostly identical on all platforms (when you look at it from a application/user) but everyone develops it himself and thus wasting limited resources. Instead of everyone doing everything himself it would be much better if this backbone would be identical for all and opensource and there would still the chance to use a different desktop and add (closed source) components. It would have a lot of advantages because the API would be really identical on all platforms, everyone would automatically benefit of improvements (updated drivers, improved libraries and so on) and resources would not be wasted by reinventing wheels, development would be faster for all.

I asked that Ben H. in the last discussion and got no answer (the discussion soon became emotional) but I hope somewhen there will be a change of mind in both closed source camps.

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Yo 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 10:58:41
#16 ]
Team Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2004
Posts: 2043
From: France, on an ADSL line

@OlafS25

Quote:
Instead of everyone doing everything himself it would be much better if this backbone would be identical for all and opensource and there would still the chance to use a different desktop and add (closed source) components. It would have a lot of advantages because the API would be really identical on all platforms, everyone would automatically benefit of improvements (updated drivers, improved libraries and so on) and resources would not be wasted by reinventing wheels, development would be faster for all.


What a great idea!

After all, with keeping the 'backbone' so inaccessible, and since development seems to be at a standstill (while the rest of the computing world is moving forward at a rapid pace with leaps and bounds,) it's kinda guaranteeing that the Amiga platform will become just another Betamax, or 8-Track system.

Sadly -- egos, arrogance and greed spoil so many great ideas...

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Franko 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 11:26:17
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Jun-2010
Posts: 2809
From: Unknown

@ ???? !!!!!

Not sure... but are me meds not working anymore or have I just forgotten to take em this morning or is this still the after affects of the laughing gas I got at the Dentist yesterday... (though I don't see any Teletubbies this morning)...

But Wassis all aboot !!!

Missing Posts !!! thread moved off the front page !!! Wee Creepy Crawlies (the Ants I mean) !!!

Like I said at the start, not quite sure what's going on here but how come the "missing posts" that "are here" aint ones I can even recall being deleted from "Trevors Blog" the other day... Gawd me memory must be going now too...

Is it just me who's lost his marbles or is this thread just a very, very late April Fool joke (but without the humour or punchline)...

Anyone care to explain what this thread is about ???


PS: Is it David Attenborough appreciation week or sumfink !!!

Think I'd better take me meds now (or again) and try again in about half an hour... Is there a doctor in the house...


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Rudei 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 11:35:17
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2002
Posts: 3577
From: Dallas, Texas

@Franko

Nope, I haven't a clue what this is about.

Rude!

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Yo 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 11:54:25
#19 ]
Team Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2004
Posts: 2043
From: France, on an ADSL line

@Franko

Quote:
...how come the "missing posts" that "are here" aint ones I can even recall being deleted from "Trevors Blog" the other day.


Our frenemies over at Moo screenshot the whole thread (because they've nought else to do with their valuable time, obviously) so it's captured for all internet eternity online. A Public Service, I say! Why do this? Because the weather is too crap for gardening, there's nothing on Telly, Footys not started (possibly) and Golf? Like any of that lot CAN budge from their supine positions on the lounge sofa.

It's all rather hilarious, I think.

I like to hear what Evert has to say, and he has, without being under attack. That's a good thing, in my book at least.

So, really the next question should be -- pancakes or waffles?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Evert Carton speaks
Posted on 6-Apr-2013 12:15:49
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11166
From: Norway

@number6

Evert Carton? Do you really know he is? Do you have his telephone number? Address?

He quits Hypersion at same time he tells every one that he quited because he was not interested, but now he is active in forums, like never before and where intented every time Ben or some one writes about him, so he has gone from not interested I quit, to I'm not interested but I read Amigaworld every day, funny.

I think its a prank call, people do it all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBFDlBO9czs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wYvKzXg7zs&feature=endscreen&NR=1

If you are Evert Carton, I suggest you make a youtube video tell the story, explain what happened

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Apr-2013 at 12:34 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Apr-2013 at 12:22 PM.

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