@A500Fan

Quote:

The emulator must not be programmed in a way which makes it impossible for operating systems to detect if they are running within an emulation (e.g. no emulation "down to the last bit"). This project is not meant to displease any company in the whole Amiga world.

I'm not sure how this makes sense.

If you're withholding something from the emulation, then perhaps nothing works, and perhaps nothing CAN work.

If you make the emulation satisfy the MorphOS demo requirement, then the full MOS/OS4 version might not be able to tell the difference. Does the coder of this emulator then hold back release until he can figure out how to make the full versions fail, but still keep the demo working? Even if this might require inventing something completely new in the emulator, and then telling the MOS/OS4 teams of this thing to look for, and then wait for the OS teams to implement a check and fail if this newly invented characteristic is detected?

I'm just not sure how to intentionally break something just so for this can be done.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

Quote:

BigD wrote: @cdimauro What is the point of this thead? Either the Cyrus, X1000 and Sam platforms are a success or the AmigaOS platform dies. An emulator would kill the platform,

I don't see why you're so sure that it will happen.

For me it's the exact opposite: it's the too much high prices
of the current machines which is killing the AmigaOS platform.

Remember: "Computer for the masses, not for the classes".
Quote:

plus porting from PowerPC would suck all resources away from 3D drivers etc.

They're already wasting resources working on two different 3D drivers...
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We're not Apple and we simply don't have the developers to do the job an there is no financial incentive anyway. Unless we can make a success of the current designs utilising PowerPC CPUs there is no future.

I don't see how, since the AmigaOS4 cost it totally unrelated to the PowerPC machines sold.

As I already stated, Hyperion is a software house, NOT an hardware house. Do you know of any money flow that from the hardware vendors go to Hyperion as a "bonus" (or something similar) for the sold hardware?
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How many investors like Trevor Dickinson do you know?

I don't know what do you think with "like".

Anyway, I know some investors, but I don't think they could be interested in a so little market niche.
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As far as I know the number of X1000s sold is still under 1000 and this number does not fund a change of CPU architecture.

See above: in each case it cannot fund it, since the AmigaOS4 development is a different thing.
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The only reason people want an emulator is so that they can save their pennies and dabble with AmigaOS on their current x86 hardware.

Which is a Very Good Thing IMHO. Or do you like to spend a pile of green dollars in obsolete and underpowered hardware?
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I'm afraid dabbling in the platform will not support or maintain it in the long run. Either support the current software/hardware solutions or leave it to die!

Software. The key is the software. The hardware is already agonizing.
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There is no emulation future for the platform. As far as I know the 68k Amigas are already emulated on PCs so if that's your bag stick with Cloanto's Amiga Forever.

Porting the software to another architecture is completely different from emulation.
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Quote: In short: let to continue to put patches to the 30 years old Amiga o.s. sources, adding some limited features to attract the amigans, while still using an obsolete and expensive PowerPC ecosystem. The alternative is killing the Amiga scene all together.

I don't see how.
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The move to PowerPC from 68k has taken years.

And is still incomplete...
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RunUAE is actually usable and included in the OS but it took years to get it to this point.

AROS did it many time ago.
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Petunia runs 68k apps but that would break if emulated under x86.

It depends on the constraints that you want to put on the new platform, but with proper choices you can let 68K (and even PowerPC) applications run on another, little-endian, architecture as "first-class citizens" (read: as now).

But personally I don't like it. I prefer that the old applications be run on an (almost) isolated sandbox.
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Why bother? Just use a Mac or a PC instead.

Because a porting is possible, and has many advantages.
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If you want to use an Amiga buy an Amiga!!

Which is... 68K-based. No PowerPC.

@all

Although I am new here and came back to the scene after 15 years of abscence, I feel like I must state my point of view.

We all have to ask ourselves what is an amiga to us? what does the name mean?

Amiga was not the hardware, nor the workbench, nor the software alone, it was the feeling of computing it gave to its users. For me that feeling since then, was not surpassed by any machine, hence that I came back to live it again. For me it was the best personal-home computer for a decade, its simplicity, easy of use, vast software and that "warm" feeling was the successful combination.
PCs & Macs didn't reach that level, 20 years after the demise of Commodore, they only succeeded in the easy of use department, mostly due to millions of using their OS's.

Only if the next supercomputer out of star trek or something will be invented and named amiga, will the platform strike back, as in 1985, something that I can't see it, at least not in my life time. So where does that leave us?

By today's standards only the OS keeps the feeling alive. But the scene is weakened by the day.
My strong believe is that Amiga OS should be ported to PC architecture 64bit and run natively. With the right price and a few basic software applications like Office suite, people could at least try it as an alternative to Windows. For God shakes people for years were trying linux with endless lines of codes, they will at least try a graphic interfaced OS, those who used an amiga in the past at least. That will result in bigger sales of the OS which in turn will attract developers. Right now only a handful exist and coders who try to port software, tomorrow even those may stop. In the current state you struggle every day to run software, there isn't a decent browser for internet access.
All hardware sales are probably coming from die hard funs of Amiga, since no other person will ditch PCs or Macs to buy an AmigaNG.

The whole scene resembles a situation much like a store owner sells a piece of something a day and he is happy that the day got by, tomorrow is another story.

So to sum it up, for me Amiga is the OS and should have been or should be ported to the biggest platform hardware to run natively. I guess Hyperion is happy by selling a copy of AOS a month or so, so I don't see that happening.

Next best thing is an emulator much like winUAE, if it can be run without even windows screens appear even better. I don't think it will kill the amiga, how many of amiga users, have only an amiga in the house as the main computer? Most have PCs & Macs and an amiga, but their work is done on PCs & Macs. With the same logic WinUAE should have nailed the coffin, but I don't see it, 68K amigas, NG Amigas co-exist with WinUAE and there are some developers or enthousiasts who still produce hardware after 20 years.

Sorry for the long post.
Amiga is a feeling, let it spread

Last edited by akis on 07-Feb-2014 at 12:16 AM.
Last edited by akis on 07-Feb-2014 at 12:15 AM.
Last edited by akis on 07-Feb-2014 at 12:14 AM.

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Finally there's light, AOS4 runs in WinUAE. Next logical steps, emulation of AOS4 PPC, porting AOS4 to x86/64

@akis

Quote:

people could at least try it as an alternative to Windows.

Would they though? Windows is already installed on peoples PCs from the day they get it delivered from Dell or PC World. The OS works out of the box (in a matter of speaking) and lets them read the doc, docx, xls, xlsx, ppt and pptx files their friends and colleagues attach to their emails (as Office is normally included too).

Most people are more worried about messing up their current set up by installing new software than they are excited about the prospect of trying new operating systems. You sell an Amiga (yes, I class the AmigaOne machines as Amigas) as a PC replacement not as a fun side project you can dabble with on a wet bank holiday

Hyperion, A-EON, ACUBE and AmigaKit are all here to make money and create a profit margin to pay the bills from the sale of their products. If you got Hyperion to give up on development and convinced them to offer the OS as an Open Source gift to the community, maybe you'll get the cheap open source ports to x86 you crave. On the other hand would there be anyone else with the skills required to give it a go? If that is the sort of software you want why not use Linux? If you are not bothered about the synergy of software and hardware that the original Commodore Amiga was then just use AROS, or WinUAE and stop trying to tell Hyperion what they should do!

Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2014 at 01:12 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2014 at 01:12 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2014 at 01:10 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 07-Feb-2014 at 01:04 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

Yes, that's the point: the Amiga was a splendid and unrepeated synergy of CUSTOM (made and not available to any other computer company) hardware and CUSTOM software (operating system).

After Commodore bankrupt there was and there's nothing comparable.

So Amiga was NOT only the o.s..

Now there's only its o.s. which runs on a PC with a PowerPC CPU instead of a usual x86 (or x64), and that's not the same thing. You cannot call it Amiga both legally (because the Amiga brand is registered and NOT available for PowerPC machines; AmigaOne is ANOTHER brand, in fact) and because it's only one piece of the cake.

And, to be clear, I fail to see the strict synergy of the o.s. with the hardware. Even the drivers for common peripherals are lagging...

So, please, call Amiga what was and is really an Amiga, and a machine which runs ONLY the o.s..

@BigD

Quote:

to offer the OS as an Open Source gift to the community, maybe you'll get the cheap open source ports to x86 you

Never said that, it should be a commercial product, but only sold "ready" and not half ready or half the devices attached to a computer not working for lack of drivers. And I never said it would be cheap, it should be cheaper than a copy of Windows

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Most people are more worried about messing up their current set up by installing new software

These people would buy anything that come bundled with their machines as long as it runs the latest "hot" game or an application the want to use. A large percentage don't even buy a genuine copy of windows (is it because they thing is expensive for what it offers?)

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than they are excited about the prospect of trying new operating systems

Many people tried linux (at times which it was only lines of code) and I think the number that are trying and installing it is constant growing, there is the excitement you seek

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If that is the sort of software you want why not use Linux?

Linux doesn't give me the feeling, nor MacOs nor Windows

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If you got Hyperion to give up on development

Did you say development? You did, you did say development, ok I won't comment on that!

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you are not bothered about the synergy

I don't see any synergy in NG Amigas (you see I do call them Amigas). The only synergy is in CPU and OS, all other synergistic things that made an amiga on the past are gone, most NGAmigas rely on graphics cards (from PC world) sound cards (from PC world) and if they are lucky cards to use SATA drives USB etc.

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then just use AROS, or WinUAE and stop trying to tell Hyperion what they should do!

I don't get it, even if I did tried to tell Hyperion what to do, haven't I the right as a customer to do so? to express my opinion? And you have the right to tell others like me what to do? To use linux? Who are you? GOD? or Hyperion?
Nevertheless, I was merely trying to state the obvious, I am a business manager and I believe thats the way forward for Hyperion and the community, unless they want their sales to slowly die along with the platform and maybe to be bought from a new company, a deja vu that is happening again and again the last 20 years.

Last edited by akis on 07-Feb-2014 at 07:14 AM.
Last edited by akis on 07-Feb-2014 at 07:13 AM.
Last edited by akis on 07-Feb-2014 at 07:12 AM.

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Finally there's light, AOS4 runs in WinUAE. Next logical steps, emulation of AOS4 PPC, porting AOS4 to x86/64

This topic (or should I say Off-Topic discussion) of what should be the way forward for AmigaOS has been debated over and over again for years. It is a dead horse that keeps getting beaten all over again every few months or years, with no new results.

If you want to continue beating this horse here on the forums, keep your tempers in check, and don't get so upset at some other opinion that you feel you have to lash out in anger, or insult the person who is opposing your point of view.

There is nothing wrong with expressing your own opinions on this topic, but keep in mind that everyone has opinions and often they are different than yours.

Think back several years and then compare our choices then to what they are now. We are so lucky to have so many different choices on how we can attempt to get the same feeling we once had by running so many different Amiga inspired systems. What other systems has evolved so diversely as the Amiga? None I think.

My own personal opinion on this is that if you want an Amiga-Like (hate that term) OS that runs on modern hardware (at least more modern than old PPC Macs, or brand new PPC SAM's & X1000's), then look at AROS and support them with bounty money and/or programming of your own design.

If you have had the opportunity to use a recent AmigaOS4.x compatible system and like it, then find one to buy for yourself and support what Hyperion, A-Eon, ACube, and 3rd party software developers are doing for the AmigaOS4.x community.

Same for MorphOS, if you like it, support it.

If you only like the original 68k Amiga computers, then you are lucky, because there is still a thriving community of users and developers, and even a few hardware designers, who are still supporting AmigaOS3.x, and you can find new software and hardware add-ons for your original Amigas, if you can keep them running. Thankfully, many 68k Amigas still run just like they did almost 30 years ago.

Peace!

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Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@BigD

"Amiga" was mostly defined (for me) by hardware with its different concepts (custom chips) and standards (f.e. Zorro). Of course additionally there was the OS with its own standards (amigaguide and so on). So it was a really unique package with hardware being the biggest difference. Today all "NG" options are software based reimplementing the API or (what seems to be very important to some) still partly using old sources. But in any case pure "software". The hardware is not much different (or even standard hardware). I am fine with that, we have 2014 and not 1992 but (in opposite to some) I see all options not as "Amiga" and expecially not much different to each other (except that some are more pricey than others). Nobody can tell Hyperion anything but perhaps they will react when the market is more and more shrinking (if it is not too late then).

"With the right price and a few basic software applications like Office suite, people could at least try it as an alternative to Windows."

One must remember that Windows and Linux need 1-2GB of DRIVERS with their OS to support the HW.
So unless we can afford those drivers, our OSs can not be an alternative to vanilla windows user. (trying a OS without good driver support is a disappointment)

Without multibilliondolllar investment our OSs will not be possible on everybody's desktop.

Custom motherboard is the more sane way. And then the CPU ISA does not matter much. (unless it's Amiga users that want to use Windows on their "Amigas")


((btw, now when IBM spends 1billion in opens source SW for PPC, we should be there and collaborate to take all possible co-operation opportunities))

Last edited by KimmoK on 07-Feb-2014 at 11:04 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 07-Feb-2014 at 11:02 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

>Amiga OS does not cost more than windows, so the price of the OS can't be the problem here.

It's not the whole problem but is part of it. OS4 is 105 euros. The OEM price of W7S is about $30 IIRC, and the retail price of W8 is/was similar. So unless you are talking about eg. W7U then your point is incorrect. (Needless to say OS3.9 etc. were much more reasonably priced...)

>no emulation "down to the last bit".

IOW "the emulator must be deliberately coded to be crap, not even going to try to make it accurate." Of course such a perfect emulation would in practice be very difficult to achieve, but it is still worth having as a goal.

>It's best to bet on x64

No, this just perpetuates the problem of rare elitist hardware, x86 is much more common and cheaper than x64. Most PPCs are 32-bit anyway so I don't see that x64 would be much faster. Anyway an open source emulator written in a high-level language such as C could be recompiled for either without much trouble.

>An emulator would kill the platform

Not this nonsense again... Lack of an emulator is killing the platform. I threw out my Amigas many years ago, I use WinUAE for all development as it is much faster (quicker compile times etc.). Emulators aren't just for games you know...

>As far as I know the number of X1000s sold is still under 1000 and this number does not fund a change of CPU architecture.

The fact that so few systems have been sold suggests that the current elitist "only for rich people" strategy is wrong and therefore that a port to standard hardware (or emulator) could only improve the situation.

>So, please, call Amiga what was and is really an Amiga, and a machine which runs ONLY the o.s..

In that case, there has *never* been a real Amiga, since even a Classic Amiga can run Linux, AMIX, etc. Defining a platform by a limitation, ie. by what it can't do, doesn't seem wise.

>One must remember that Windows and Linux need 1-2GB of DRIVERS with their OS to support the HW. So unless we can afford those drivers, our OSs can not be an alternative to vanilla windows user. (trying a OS without good driver support is a disappointment)

An emulator running on Windows would be benefiting from Windows drivers, just like any other application does. So no need to write any drivers.

>if you want an Amiga-Like (hate that term) OS that runs on modern hardware (at least more modern than old PPC Macs, or brand new PPC SAM's & X1000's), then look at AROS

Unfortunately AROS isn't up to scratch and it's looking increasing certain that it never will be. OS4, MOS and indeed OS3.9 are leagues ahead. (The only good things about it are that it can be run on commodity hardware (ie. x86) and is open source.) Plus there's a lot of OS4 and MOS software that isn't available for AROS anyway.

@Minuous

AROS is better than OS4 in many ways and MorphOS is better than both of them.

I say this as an OS4 user.

@IntuitionAmiga

So way are you not using MorphOS, if ts better?

Anyway I'm a AmigaOS4 users and never ever going to use MorphOS, its too different, and I'm not shore its better option.

I think AROS, MorphOS and AmigaOS4 has there strengths and weaknesses, what some one likes are really subjective.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@Minuous

"Plus there's a lot of OS4 and MOS software that isn't available for AROS anyway."

When I look at the uploads then AROS is about in the same league as MorphOS there. There are more uploads for AmigaOS but many are for small tools or something like "QT"

The major difference between AROS and the other two is 68k integration (in AROS with UAE, in the other two direct). That is nice but it is paid by the dependency on PPC. If MorphOS would change to ARM or X86/X64 they would have the same problems and propably would use the same components (UAE). And there is a new wave of AROS updates on the way so we will see...

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: For me it's the exact opposite: it's the too much high prices of the current machines which is killing the AmigaOS platform.

AFIAK there are enough sources available, Hyperion could write an emulator themselves, and there are still enough used PPC Macs out there so Hyperion could port AOS4 to them.

I don't want discuss what might kill the AOS4 platform, but Hyperion is only supporting licensed hardware. (Pegaos2 licensed via ACube). It is their OS port and they decide what to do with it (well maybe they are still bound to the contracts with Amiga Inc.)

Either you are asking for a PPC-Computer emulator, running without being officially supported by Hyperion or you should not even start a discussion of this project.

Last edited by Arko on 10-Feb-2014 at 11:17 AM.
Last edited by Arko on 10-Feb-2014 at 10:34 AM.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@NutsAboutAmiga

I do use MorphOS too, that's why I know it's better in every way measurable than OS4 and AROS.

@IntuitionAmiga

"AROS is better than OS4 in many ways"

Surely you meant in "some ways".
(as it still is more behind AOS3.9 than AOS4 is)
http://aros.sourceforge.net/introduction/status/amigaos.php



/DREAMING ON/

Imagine if all best parts of AROS, AOS4 and MOS would be put together to form AmigaCommunityOS1.0....
+ development boosted 3x, userbase "exploding" (relative terms), ....
+ perhaps even NG APIs ported back to 68k to enable formidable retroFPGA systems and it acting also as abstraction sandbox to run legacy SW binaries on SMP-MP-64bit NG OS

/DREAMING OFF/

Last edited by KimmoK on 10-Feb-2014 at 11:08 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

the status is not up-to-date. And for 68k you can use Aros 68k and there you can put in everything like you do on MorphOS or AmigaOS.

@KimmoK

Nope, I meant what I wrote "many" meaning "several more than one".

@IntuitionAmiga

measurably is that Aros running on modern hardware runs circle around MorphOS. The difference is 68k integration, you cannot add (as example) 68k libraries by copying them in Libs (exception Aros 68k) so you need native reimplementations. AmigaOS or MorphOS "feel" certainly more amigian in that way but on the other side you are bound to PPC because of that. In other areas like running on affordable new and fast hardware, RAM-support and many others Aros is already in front. Another limitation was "Wanderer", Ambient certainly is much better but this will be solved soon.

Even with AROS is possible to get a 68K integration similar to the one offered by MorphOS and AmigaOS4. But it requires some (not trivial) work to get it, and... time spent. I don't know if it deserves a try: I still think that the sandbox approach is better.

@for the thread: I think it can be closed. With WinUAE getting PowerPC support, and OS4.1 running too, there's no need for a bounty anymore.