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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
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Aslak3 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 20:23:37
#61 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

@Hyperionmp

Already done. I sold the system and transferred the license last year.

If true, the numbers are impressive.

No I'm not bitter. Just very sad that a system I adhored to use from 1990 to about 1997 has come on so little in the intervening fifteen years. Always the issue of memory protection is ignored. Apple saw it. Microsoft saw it.

Ah well.

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Overflow 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 20:28:14
#62 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@Aslak3

I find your logic kinda odd with regards to memory. Isnt it better to have the memory barrier lifted to give developers more room to work in the future?

Hyperion and AEON are probarly looking ahead for the most part, instead of looking backwards.

And what is the problem with the 2 programs he is citing being ports? Does that diminish the usability of them?

Regardless, Ive been reading this and other forums up thru the years, and tbh it seems to be the activity level/development speed seems to have picked up somewhat.

Or?

Last edited by Overflow on 27-Apr-2014 at 08:29 PM.

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Hyperionmp 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 20:29:52
#63 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 502
From: Unknown

@Aslak3

It was not ignored at all as you would have found out if you had stuck around long enough. In fact, facilities for private protected memory segments have been in place since years.

The issue has always been that we wanted to retain backwards compatibility whilst gradually tightening the system itself and the guidelines for application developers.


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mbrantley 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 20:41:23
#64 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Jun-2010
Posts: 547
From: Mobile, Alabama, United States

@Aslak3

I am frequently bumping into the 2gb limit when working with my photography on my X1000. I will welcome more memory. I would not mind warming up my other core either.

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Aslak3 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 20:46:25
#65 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

@Overflow

It is better to give developers a system that doesn't require rebooting every time a bug occurs in the project they are developing. This is the reason why I did not put any effort into Amiga dev. The world has moved on from shared memory systems. Even your "smart" TV has a memory-protected OS.

The two programs mentioned being OSS is interesting because it shows that the aim here is catchup, not making anything new and exciting. Which I find sad.

@ Hyperionmp

There are many approaches to backwards compatibility. See MS's approach to running Win16 programs under the NT kernel for a good example which is quite close to what could be achieved on an AmigaOS.

I'll be off now. Will pop my head back in sometime around AmiWest, to see if anything happens there.

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klx300r 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 20:53:31
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3663
From: Toronto, Canada

Quote:

mbrantley wrote:
@Aslak3

I am frequently bumping into the 2gb limit when working with my photography on my X1000. I will welcome more memory. I would not mind warming up my other core either.


+1, with pictures being 10+MB each nowadays the more ram the better especially when messing about with other memory hungry programs at the same time

@ Aslak3

too bad you sold your OS4.x system but at least it will still be enjoyed by a new user.

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broadblues 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 20:57:41
#67 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@Aslak3

Quote:

It is a lack of memory protection that keeps the OS stuck in the 90s.


We do have memory protection, and that's the reason many applications from the mid nineties crash. I rarely get crashes I didn't cause myself in some way.


Quote:

BTW surely things like undo buffers can be spooled to disk? A tad more to implement but nit much.


Undo buffers could be spooled to disk, but bangs goes the fluid painting which is sketchblock primary design goal. Multiple layers the could be too, but then things really start to slow down.

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broadblues 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 20:59:57
#68 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@Aslak3

Quote:

Strange that the two programs you cite are OSS ports.


Why is that strange?

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amigang 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 21:00:51
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1683
From: Cheshire, England

Nice to get some updates, it would be cool if even little post like these where made on the hyperion blog each month just to let us know things are happing, a-eon/trevors blog I find a great read each month on what he's up to.

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danwood 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 22:20:42
#70 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2008
Posts: 1059
From: Unknown

@Aslak3

Quote:
No I'm not bitter. Just very sad that a system I adhored to use from 1990 to about 1997 has come on so little in the intervening fifteen years. Always the issue of memory protection is ignored. Apple saw it. Microsoft saw it.


But even Apple could not properly shoe-horn it into Mac OS without it breaking everything (see Copland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_(operating_system) ) so in the end basically started over.

Although I too no longer really use OS4 (A1XE started behaving flaky so moved over to MorphOS full time a couple of years ago) I hardly ever get lockups on MorphOS, maybe 1 a month, I did get a lot more under OS4 but I bet a large part of that was the buggy hardware I ran on (the Eyetech AmigaOnes were notoriously buggy and required a lot of workarounds). My Mac Mini G4 has over 4 days uptime at the moment with Amipodder, Simplemail, Odyssey, Amigaamp, Wookiechat and Aminetradio all running at the moment, rock solid.

If you're getting regular lock-ups I'd look at install issues/hardware problems as I am impressed at the stability of MorphOS on the Mac hardware even without memory protection.

Last edited by danwood on 27-Apr-2014 at 10:24 PM.

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Zylesea 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 23:27:25
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2212
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@Hyperionmp

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote:
@amigadave

Just a tidbit: AmigaOS 4.1 now has a mechanism to use more than 4 GB of memory but can make good use of essentially all physical memory available (i.e. the limit imposed by the 32 bit limit was circumvented).


Sounds good. But announcing such things reminds me of a too well known pattern repeating again and again over so many years now.
What hasn't been promised, announced or was rocking and on schedule...?
I rather keep sceptical on such announcements.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 27-Apr-2014 23:47:48
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1177
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@Hyperionmp,

Working on the foundation as you have been Is the right move. These changes will make things easier in the future, they are important to the framework. Cheers to your fortitude.

Chris

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Tomas 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 28-Apr-2014 0:36:21
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote:
@Aslak3

It was not ignored at all as you would have found out if you had stuck around long enough. In fact, facilities for private protected memory segments have been in place since years.

The issue has always been that we wanted to retain backwards compatibility whilst gradually tightening the system itself and the guidelines for application developers.



Would it not be possible to have some sort of full memory protection that is optional? Or at least full for modern applications that have been coded to take advantage of it?? I personally would not mind losing backwards compatibility if the feature can be switched on/off when you need to use those old applications.

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CodeSmith 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 28-Apr-2014 2:11:07
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Aslak3

Quote:

Aslak3 wrote:
@Overflow

It is better to give developers a system that doesn't require rebooting every time a bug occurs in the project they are developing. This is the reason why I did not put any effort into Amiga dev. The world has moved on from shared memory systems. Even your "smart" TV has a memory-protected OS.

+1 to that. AmigaOS is a wonderful system and in a lot of ways is still current... except if you're a developer and are running unfinished code. A rogue pointer in most other current OSs will crash the application responsible, and some will even offer to open the debugger right there so you can examine the problem. With AmigaOS, bitrot will accumulate all over the system, corrupting other running programs and even the OS, until eventually something (not necessarily the program that has the bug) falls over and you get a visit from the grim reaper. Ironically my AmigaOne XE was what caused me to go back to 6502 assembler after decades... I figured that if I was going to put up with a 1970s debugging model in my retro coding, I shouldn't have to deal with a 1990s-2000s complexity OS.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 28-Apr-2014 at 02:14 AM.

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QuBe 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 28-Apr-2014 3:02:39
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1063
From: Dunes of Uridia

@asymetrix

On the "benchmarking note", would it not be cool to get a few of the top Amiga demo coders together to put a "3DMark" type product for NextGen Amiga's to benchmark a system's 3D capabilities.

It would be interesting to see detailed benchmarks across the full range of NextGen Amiga's.

I don't know how valid this would be for Classics though.

Q!

"i am home"

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QuBe 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 28-Apr-2014 3:11:45
#76 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1063
From: Dunes of Uridia

@amigadave

Quote:
plus provide more of an incentive for commercial development, though I know that we will probably never have a large enough user base to create a REAL WORLD market for commercial software development.


I think what is critical here is to get the best software we can ported across to the platform, such as useful productivity software first and foremost. LibraOffice et al, will add to the momentum and usage of the platform over time - and within the community at large.

If you can get a higher take up within the community itself - classic upgraders who have never owned a next gen Amiga - this will go a long way in stimulating sales and business, and thus helping commercial developers to take a renewed interest in the platform.

Funnily enough though, I still see potential in the Classic hobbyist market with new accelerators and updated video expansion cards like Indivision etc. The problem is getting new games (and the like) to be made for the classic market in order to stimulate a commercial eco-system. Who knows that may well be the case if a "retro" trend returns with force. No doubts that the demo scene has gone a long way to keep the classic market invigorated with enthusiasts interested in upgrading their classics for better performance.

Q!

"i am home"

Last edited by QuBe on 28-Apr-2014 at 03:13 AM.
Last edited by QuBe on 28-Apr-2014 at 03:12 AM.

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Thorham 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 28-Apr-2014 4:53:29
#77 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
QuBe wrote:

classic upgraders who have never owned a next gen Amiga

You'll find that many classic owners don't care about next gen and many who don't even acknowledge next gen as actual Amigas. That's a whole lot of Amiga people who'll never be into this.

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KimmoK 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 28-Apr-2014 5:30:31
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5204
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Tomas

"Would it not be possible to have some sort of full memory protection that is optional? Or at least full for modern applications that have been coded to take advantage of it?? I personally would not mind losing backwards compatibility if the feature can be switched on/off when you need to use those old applications."

+1

I would be interested in booting to xkernel AOS that can do SMP and memory protection when I need very stable system without all of the legacy support.

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Hyperionmp 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 28-Apr-2014 7:16:06
#79 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 502
From: Unknown

@Thorham

You will also find that once they have actually been exposed to a real AmigaOne or SAM running all their favourite applications and many games, a lot of them change their mind.

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KimmoK 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 28-Apr-2014 7:31:54
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5204
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Hyperionmp

It annoys me that user community does not seem to have much or any affect on what is happening with AOS.

I think that if people could better affect to developments around AOS, they might be more interested.
Most of us anyway have too much experience of badly managed Amiga things.

Example, on the blue team it is possible to get the OS to HW x if big enough bounty is collected.
Do you think with AOS we could have similar system?

Also, perhaps some kind of crowd funding could be used to boost some OS developments?
Example... to build a bigger team around 3D libraries development, so that developments would not be halted for years when the single critical resource can not fully contribute for a while.

+
My troubles when using my SAM & AOS4:
- lack of CPU power
--some things like wordpress blog editor require more CPU than my SAM440 can offer
--I can not afford to spend thousands to get the CPU performance high enough
--there is no info of more affordable AOS4 systems coming to market

- lack of system maturity
--SAM440+AOS4 should be more stable, the USB stack issues and crashes are too ferquent

- lack of SW bundle when new user starts the AOS4 journey
--it's annoying to be forced to do 1000 things before system becomes a productive tool

In the end I spend a lot of time in trying to get the system to work when I rather would do productive stuff for the community.

Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Apr-2014 at 07:40 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Apr-2014 at 07:39 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Apr-2014 at 07:39 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Apr-2014 at 07:38 AM.

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