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Hypex 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 15:02:59
#301 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Hillbillylitre

The "NG" Amiga may not be perfect but it's what we got and at least it happened. Even though it was ten years ago it was too late. They completely gave up on using any real Amiga hardware or Amiga based custom chips and focused on the OS. So much so that even the machines branded as the AmigaOne had no reemblence to the Amiga. Didn't take Amiga cards. Didn't read Amiga floppies. Didn't even have Kickstart and introduced foreign concepts like taxt baed BIOS and boot loaders. They really tried hard to alienate Amiga users. We've hardly advanced. In some ways it was a step back to a place before the Amiga.

The OS was put together on a shoe string budget and still is. They lack man power and other resources and it shows. Workbench is still Workbench and doesn't multi-task in the same way an OS3 Workbench doesn't multi-task. But I'm grateful for the dedication and effort put in. And use mine mostly everyday. Otherwise I'd be forced to become a sheep.

But what could you do differently? Right now I think you couldn't. I don't see the point of throwing around ideas of what should be done with the Amiga because it's too late. Again. I don't think it should be Intel, VGA gfx or common 2 channel sound chips. What's the point? All Linux is, is another OS on the PC. Why be another?

I will say this. Any "New" Amiga should have a newly designed CPU, future design like a quantum CPU that won't be x86 compatible, because it isn't held back by being compatible with 30 year old legacies. It will have in the least unlimited hardware channels with 64-bit FP samples at 192Khz. And a modern copper with A32R32G32B32 256-bit per pixel RGB on unlimited 3d playfields! Like Commdore put in the API. The Workbench will have a 3d interface into the virtual world of the new Amiga. It will be too easy to use. It will have tablet and mobile versions. And most of all, it wil run rings around any PC made in the next four years, since its rebirth!

THAT is the only way to bring back the Amiga!

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bison 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 15:19:44
#302 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1910
From: N-Space

@itix

Quote:
Who need Amiga brand name anymore? Amiga 500 did not sell because it was Amiga branded. It sold because it was a good machine.

Yes, exactly. They could have given it a really bad name like Hi-Toro 500 and it still would have sold.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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Nameless 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 17:49:48
#303 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Nov-2008
Posts: 315
From: Unknown


I think the name could be worth something to a toy company, or a company who wanted to go the full-fledged retro route... just probably not worth a ton of money though.

I always find it odd when some here think to bring the Amiga back to some sort of relevancy it needs to be some super duper quantum computer, or somehow by magic the OS could compete with modern day operating systems.

Only way the brand could have any value would be to appeal to the 68K crowd, which means go for nostalgia.

Ran across this today, which I expect some others have seen:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sinclair-zx-spectrum-vega

I'm amazed that no retro projects like this has been crowdfunded yet for the Amiga. We have FPGA projects of course, but nothing on a large scale and nothing really semi-affordable (meaning in the disposable income range). I guess it comes down to the licensing issues and trying to figure out who has what rights... and that fact that those who do own the rights have their own weird interests (Snowman maker & 3K outdated PPC machine).

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Massi 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 18:25:33
#304 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 519
From: Rome, Italy

@Hypex

Quote:
Otherwise I'd be forced to become a sheep.


True and good point

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tangoone 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 21:50:32
#305 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Jul-2014
Posts: 152
From: Norway

@Hypex

The problem with NG-AMiga from a-eon is that it is like a pc/linux box there is no diffrence and that is not what Amiga is all about, amiga is micro=extremly small.

AmigaNG could have been anyhting they could named it AppleNG, BE-NG in one word it has nothing todo with amiga.

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broadblues 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 22:01:22
#306 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@tangoone

Quote:

amiga is micro=extremly small.


A4000T is extremely smal?

A3000 with video toaster is extremyl small?

A500 was ***** brick for gods sake.

My A1200 was frankensteins monster after afew years of owning and expending it.

Honestly I don't know where some of you guys come from, but it can't be from amigas past.


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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 22:18:01
#307 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5941
From: Unknown

@Massi

Some are wondering why smaller communities like the C64 community partly manage to develop more new software than the amiga community or long for a more peaceful atmosphere and both has to do with NG and the split in our community.

I think what Hillbillylitre means is if there would be only 3.X then all (who are left) would use and develop for the same platform. Indeed was and is the split in our community harming, funnily even existing projects are forked or forked on the same platform.

But it is how it is...

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 22:33:53
#308 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5941
From: Unknown

@tangoone

small? I do not know

A500 was not small in my view

the main difference of the A500 (and the whole series of Amigas at that time) and the offerings of A-eon or Acube was that it was completely different with not only different processor but a completely different architecture and the unique custom chips. And for some years Amigas offered superior hardware in the low-cost price range. Something what current offerings cannot deliver.

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ne_one 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 22:51:42
#309 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 900
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
But it is how it is...


And this apathy is precisely the reason why the Amiga community has been less successful at moving things forward.

It's not about lack of investment, technical hurdles, fragmentation or any of the litany of other excuses that get rehashed over and over again.

It's about lack of vision and the inability to act.


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ferrels 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 22:51:45
#310 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 858
From: Arizona

@tangoone

Quote:

tangoone wrote:
@Hypex

The problem with NG-AMiga from a-eon is that it is like a pc/linux box there is no diffrence and that is not what Amiga is all about, amiga is micro=extremly small.

AmigaNG could have been anyhting they could named it AppleNG, BE-NG in one word it has nothing todo with amiga.



The was nothing "micro" about any Amiga including the A500/600/1200. My A2000 was double the size of most PCs back in the day. And the internal expansion cards were enormous as well. None of the external expansion options for the budget Amigas were small either unless you're talking about parallel port dongles and such. And the Amiga Sidecar was a monstrosity. Maybe the Amigas were "micro" when compared to computers from the 1960s, but certainly not micro by 80s and 90s standards.

A3000/4000s were also rather large.


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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 22:56:55
#311 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5941
From: Unknown

@ne_one

it is funny that you say I am apathic

Sorry I must disappoint you there

But when you run one time against a wall and hurt you and a second time and a third time and the result is always the same and the others are not interested at all you start to loose the interest there.

I have done my decisions and have good reasons for it, other have done different. I can disagree but I cannot force anyone to do what I want.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 22:59:41
#312 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5941
From: Unknown

@ferrels

On a Amiga meeting I visited recently I have seen very very well equipped A2000s with lots of cards and cables. "Small" was certainly not what came to my mind when I saw them

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 23:16:03
#313 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 858
From: Arizona

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@Hillbillylitre

The "NG" Amiga may not be perfect but it's what we got and at least it happened. Even though it was ten years ago it was too late. They completely gave up on using any real Amiga hardware or Amiga based custom chips and focused on the OS. So much so that even the machines branded as the AmigaOne had no reemblence to the Amiga. Didn't take Amiga cards. Didn't read Amiga floppies. Didn't even have Kickstart and introduced foreign concepts like taxt baed BIOS and boot loaders. They really tried hard to alienate Amiga users. We've hardly advanced. In some ways it was a step back to a place before the Amiga.

The OS was put together on a shoe string budget and still is. They lack man power and other resources and it shows. Workbench is still Workbench and doesn't multi-task in the same way an OS3 Workbench doesn't multi-task. But I'm grateful for the dedication and effort put in. And use mine mostly everyday. Otherwise I'd be forced to become a sheep.

But what could you do differently? Right now I think you couldn't. I don't see the point of throwing around ideas of what should be done with the Amiga because it's too late. Again. I don't think it should be Intel, VGA gfx or common 2 channel sound chips. What's the point? All Linux is, is another OS on the PC. Why be another?

I will say this. Any "New" Amiga should have a newly designed CPU, future design like a quantum CPU that won't be x86 compatible, because it isn't held back by being compatible with 30 year old legacies. It will have in the least unlimited hardware channels with 64-bit FP samples at 192Khz. And a modern copper with A32R32G32B32 256-bit per pixel RGB on unlimited 3d playfields! Like Commdore put in the API. The Workbench will have a 3d interface into the virtual world of the new Amiga. It will be too easy to use. It will have tablet and mobile versions. And most of all, it wil run rings around any PC made in the next four years, since its rebirth!

THAT is the only way to bring back the Amiga!


Wow, another "dreamland" post. I usually don't mind posts from dreamers and dreaming is even healthy in some venues but I do take issue with some of the misinformation you've posted. Current x86 processors have almost nothing in common with the "30 yr old legacies" you seem to be unable to get past. When was the last time you actually studied microprocessor design? 1985? And why are you talking about a modern copper? Current video hardware from the big-3 can already do everything that a copper can do and more. A copper doesn't' do much more than sync the computer's output to the video display frame rate. Current video technologies are light years ahead of coppers, copper lists and playfields. And current video technologies already support 32-bit RGBA. And Microsoft has already beat you and others to the punch when it comes to a 3D virtual world. It's called HoloLens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hglZb5CWzNQ

PPC and 68K are dead-ends. And if you don't like x86, that leaves with you ARM, which isn't a bad architecture at all. But there's absolutely no reason to believe that a new Amiga will rise from the ashes to run on a quantum CPU architecture.

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ferrels 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 6-May-2015 23:24:12
#314 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 858
From: Arizona

@OlafS25

Yeah, my old A2000 with 2 internal hard drives, bridgeboard, flixerfixer, RAM expansion CDROM, and 030 accelerator topped out at around 50lbs. Throw a 15-20lb monitor on top and you need a really sturdy desk! My A1200 was small, but even by 1992 standards I wouldn't have considered it a "micro" regardless of the verbiage on sales materials. In those days, the Timex-Sinclair ZX-80 and ZX-81 were micros. Those bad boys were tiny!

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Hillbillylitre 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 7-May-2015 3:13:29
#315 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2015
Posts: 270
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:
My A1200 was frankensteins monster after afew years of owning and expending it.


I have put everything back in my Amiga 1200. I found out it didn't have to be monster sized.

_________________
Using: One Commodore C64 - One Commodore Amiga 500 - One Commodore Amiga 1200 with BVision and Blizzard 68060 with PPC coprocessor running Amiga DOS - One Hellbillylitre Amigatwox86x64x6000x running Windows7

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Massi 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 7-May-2015 10:37:52
#316 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 519
From: Rome, Italy

@OlafS25

Quote:
Some are wondering why smaller communities like the C64 community partly manage to develop more new software than the amiga community or long for a more peaceful atmosphere and both has to do with NG and the split in our community.


Well, yes and no.
I guess programming on the Amiga is more demanding.

Quote:
I think what Hillbillylitre means is if there would be only 3.X then all (who are left) would use and develop for the same platform. Indeed was and is the split in our community harming, funnily even existing projects are forked or forked on the same platform.


Yes I actually got Hillbillylitre the same way.

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SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 1

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 7-May-2015 10:57:24
#317 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Amiga Forever contains "3.X" a 3.1 distribution updated with as many 3.9 modules as Cloanto could license.


3.9 and newer/higher!

"Amiga Forever 6.0 and higher therefore include a set of version 44 (as in "Amiga OS 3.5") files plus version 45 (or higher) files which may be either identical with, or newer than, certain (but not all) files which were also included in the product known as "Amiga OS 3.9"."

http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/15-107

A few things was not included because of copyright claimed by other parties (like MP3 decoding technology, which can be downloaded by user separately anyway). On the other hand, it includes a few improvements/software not present in the H&P release, for example the Cloanto software.

"Workbench 3.1 was the last Amiga OS version released by Commodore/Amiga, and the release by Cloanto aims to celebrate this version trying to be as true to the original as possible without compromising functionality. This is unlike the Workbench 3.X environment, which intentionally added several recognizable post-Commodore/Amiga features."

So Cloanto's Workbench 3.1 (while still containing several important improvements quite necessary today) tries to be as true to the original as possible, no such constraints were applied to Workbench 3.X.

Also, think a bit about the capital "X" in the version number...

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 7-May-2015 10:59:32
#318 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@QuikSanz

Quote:
Maybe they can sanction a new line of FPGA computers and actually call them Amiga


They don't own the Amiga name hence the new disk sets and CF installs being sold under the Amiga Forever brand.


Yes indeed and more importantly they are using the Workbench brand, which is a registered trade mark they fully own! Workbench was also the commonly used name until the 3.1 release after Commodore died, but now it's back with Cloanto's improved 3.1 release!

Workbench 1.0
Workbench 1.1
Workbench 1.2
Workbench 1.3 (Also sold separately of the emulation package, for real Amigas, with minor updates)
Workbench 2.0
Workbench 2.04
Workbench 2.05
Workbench 2.1 (Also sold separately of the emulation package, for real Amigas, with minor updates)
Workbench 3.0
Workbench 3.1 (Also sold separately of the emulation package, also in physical media, for real Amigas, with a few significant updates)
Workbench 3.X (The latest and most developed, AFAIK currently only available through the Amiga Forever 6 emulation package)

(Using "Amiga Forever" can possibly bee a smart way to sneak in the word "Amiga", same as some others do with "Amiga One" )


Quote:
The exclusive license that Commodore USA had for Amiga branded computers my still be tied up in Barry Altman's estate.


AFAIK the exact wordings of Commodore USA's Amiga license are not publicly known?

Quote:
In the event of those rights reverting back to Amiga Inc then any further licensee of the Amiga brand would still be bound by certain conditions written into the settlement agreement between Hyperion and the Amiga parties.


Grant 1 (b):

Without prejudice to any Existing License Agreements listed on Exhibit 1, the Amiga Parties hereby grant Hyperion (at Hyperion's sole expense) an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide and royalty-free, transferable right and Object Code and Source Code license to the Software [OS3.1] in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market the Software [OS3.1] in any form (including through sublicensing), on any medium (now known or otherwise), through any means (including but not limited to making AmigaOS 4 available to the public via the internet) and for any current or future hardware platform. For the avoidance of doubt with respect to the exclusive nature of the license granted to Hyperion for the Software [OS3.1] (but without prejudice to any Existin License Agreements listed on Exhibit 1), the Amiga Parties shall during the term of this Agreement not commercialize anywhere in the world (including through sub-licensing), distribute (free of charge or otherwise) or make available to the public (free of charge or otherwise), in any way of form (including but not limited to Object and Source Code form), on any medium (now known or otherwise) and through any means (now known or otherwise) the Software [OS3.1] (in part or as a whole) and any Operating System exhibiting a Software Architecture substantially similar to the Software Architecture of the Software [OS3.1] as described in the Documentation, to the extent that such Software Architecture is protectable under the copyright laws of the United States (a "Substatially Similar Software Architecture"). For the avoidance of doubt, (i) on the Effective Date, AmigaDE and AmigaAnywhere are not Operating Systems exhibiting a Substantially Similar Software Architecture, (ii) the Amiga Parties may develop, market, license and sell Operating Systems that do not exhibit a Substantially Similar Software Architecture (including without limitation Amiga DE and AmigaAnywhere (under such trademarks)), so long as such Operating Systems do not use the Exclusive Licensed Marks [AmigaOne, Amiga One, AmigaOS, Amiga OS] (as defined below) or the phrase "Amiga operating system", (iii) AmigaDE and AmigaAnywhere may be identified as the AmigaDE operating system and the AmigaAnywhere operating system, respectively, and (iv) Amiga [supposedly the Amiga Parties] may distribute the Software in Object Code form "as is" (i.e., in a form unmodified from that in definition"l" [probably meaning "n"], without additional functionality commonly associated with an Operating System) and whereby the User Interface of the Software [OS3.1] is not exposed to the end-user, solely in conjunction with gaming content or in conjunction with self-contained hardware devices containing such gaming content (e.g., joysticks) which are capable of executing the Object Code from the Software [OS3.1] without software emulation.


Did you read through all that text? Pity, because the only relevant parts are the things marked in bold text!

This is a deal between Amiga Inc and Hyperion. Cloanto is not part of it. It says what Amiga Inc can and can not do. "The Amiga Parties" can't sell "the Software", they can't sell a "substantially similar software architecture", they can't modify or improve it, they can't sub-license it, etc, etc.

But Cloanto is Cloanto. And they own the OS. So the above text doesn't matter.

This is how this could be possible:

October 30, 2014: Workbench 3.1 Update




Quote:
To sell Amiga branded hardware with or for use with an Amiga OS would require a separate contract with Hyperion that supersedes the relevant clauses in the settlement agreement.


To sell Amiga branded hardware, you would need a license for the "Amiga" name from Amiga Inc. (Hyperion does not own that, nor have they any license for that name either)

If you want to use the name "AmigaOS" ("Amiga OS" or "AmigaOne" or "Amiga One") you would need a license from Hyperion, who has been granted the right from Amiga Inc to sublicense this.

But why not continue to use "Workbench"? It worked very well during the Amiga glory days, why shouldn't it suffice now?

So to answer the original question "Maybe they can sanction a new line of FPGA computers and actually call them Amiga":

1. Get a license for the OS from Cloanto (if they are interested, which is not unthinkable). At least if you need the kickstart pre-installed upon shipment and/or want to develop some modules for it further, perhaps to introduce OS support for some new H/W features such as "Super AGA" or whatever. Otherwise the OS is available on the market from Cloanto as-is, including through the great Amiga Forever emulation package (which is a real gold-mine for any Amiga enthusiast!). IMHO it should for example be completely possible for A-Cube (for example) to build MiniMigs and bundle it with Amiga Forever.

2. Get an "Amiga" name license from Amiga Inc for that machine. If you think this is important. IMHO, "MiniMig" worked just fine for marketing. Or maybe it would be possible to call it "Amiga Forever 500" like "Amiga One 500"?

3. World Domination!

Last edited by TRIPOS on 07-May-2015 at 11:07 AM.

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Britelite 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 7-May-2015 11:12:05
#319 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@Massi

Quote:

Quote:
Some are wondering why smaller communities like the C64 community partly manage to develop more new software than the amiga community or long for a more peaceful atmosphere and both has to do with NG and the split in our community.


Well, yes and no.
I guess programming on the Amiga is more demanding.

I wouldn't say it's more demanding.

But there's of course the difference that Amiga users seem to spend more time whining on forums about the lack of software instead of actually producing something themselves ;)

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Massi 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 7-May-2015 11:28:31
#320 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 519
From: Rome, Italy

@Britelite

Quote:
I wouldn't say it's more demanding.

But there's of course the difference that Amiga users seem to spend more time whining on forums about the lack of software instead of actually producing something themselves ;)


I do believe Amiga programming is more demanding but I must 100% agree here ... a lot of time is actually being wasted producing only gossip and nothing else ...

By the way, I like your scene demos a lot.

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