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Massi 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 8-May-2015 18:57:33
#341 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 519
From: Rome, Italy

@fishy_fis and others

My point is that Amiga is more vast than C64 and thus requires a more vast tech knowledge.

Sorry for the off topics.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 11-May-2015 14:47:37
#342 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@ferrels

Quote:
When was the last time you actually studied microprocessor design? 1985?


My point is the latest Intels aren't exactly built up from scratch. There's modern features bolted onto an old architecture. When there is a piece of silicon dedicated to translating from an old instruction set with extensions to a modern RISC core that should be warning enough. Then again Mototola went down the other road of not bolting onto old designs and look what that got them.

Quote:
A copper doesn't' do much more than sync the computer's output to the video display frame rate.


I think it does a lot more. More so from it's nature. Being able to modify hardware registers on a per pixel basis as it's being drawn on screen. I'm not aware of any hardware that can do that kind of modification in realtime. So I still think that kind of thing is awesome. These days hardware tends to render into a framebuffer. Case in point: The OS4 screen dragging doesn't use any raster interrupts or other copper like tricks but instead blits the screens to the framebuffer.

Quote:
And current video technologies already support 32-bit RGBA.


I've never seen a PC yet with that kind of resolution out of a standard consunmer VGA card.

Quote:
It's called HoloLens:


Well it fails the test here if it isn't activated first thing as the default interface. When ever I check out latest Windows versions it was looking plainer and more basic. No sign of 3d on start up. I've seen a few ideas for a 3d interface and have some of my own that could work in the Workbench as we speak.

Quote:
And if you don't like x86, that leaves with you ARM


Again this is current and old technology. RISC isn't the new kid on the block anymore.

Quote:
But there's absolutely no reason to believe that a new Amiga will rise from the ashes to run on a quantum CPU architecture.


As I stated it's already too late, ten years ago. But that is taking my ideas too seriously. If ever there is a new machine I don't expect an Amiga label on it. The New Amiga these days is just a concept. It is a concept that represents ground breaking technology. In this case a new computer design for the future. But who knows, maybe there will be a hybrid design. There were analogue computers in the past. Perhaps a merging of the two could be next. Given computers try and duplicate real life like video and sound, and real life is analogue, that could be a move in the right direction. The rebirth of vinyl could symbolise that.

Last edited by Hypex on 11-May-2015 at 03:14 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 11-May-2015 15:06:10
#343 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@fishy_fis

Quote:
Do you have an evil twin brother?


Yeah my dopple ganger. He's so annoying.

I call him Hypox.

Quote:
Or perhaps some sort of multiple personality disorder?


I have, from spending too much time with mutltasking operating systems.

Quote:
Seriously, pc users are sheep?


I think so. Because there is not much choice. There is MicroShephard. Which leaves the rest to follow.

There's also Intel leading the charge and I suppose AMD. because there's no other choice for CPU anymore. And if you buy a Mac you are just getting an expensive PC in a custom white box with a custom UNIX.

So. Sheep by force, not by choice. I mean.

But I am surprised you jumped on that as this is an old Amiga joke.

Quote:
There's a few exceptions, but sans cpu architecture, the ppc "ng" system users are just as much sheep by your definition. In fact possibly moreso, as it's copying/using what was created for use elsewhere.


I actually made a point about this ten years ago when I wrote an article on the AmigaOne and compared it to the Amiga hardware.

Quote:
Also, you aspire to argb32? You do realise that higher color precision has existed for over a decade right?


No I don't, because I've never seen it. Is it in the hands of Joe PC and has been so for the past ten years? And has since been part of every generic VGA chipset? Since my poiint was having this in the hands of all consumers.

But only a decade? Even Commdodore had the idea to put it into the API years before that and if the Amiga had survived it could had the first graphic chipset with that 32-bit RGB model in the consumer market.

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broadblues 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 11-May-2015 16:22:30
#344 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@Hypex

I think the others have misread your comments about argb32 not realising you mean 32bits per channel rather than 32 bits in total. So ARGB128 might be better acronym,

In terms of the technology, there are increasing numbers of applications working in High Dynamic Range colour, Photoshop can use 16bit for certainlt probably 32bit per channel too. (on OS 4 SketchBlock uses floating point per channel, blender renders internaly in HDR and can save it out as EXR and jpeg2000 if built suitably) but there is very little hardware that can display it.

Even now cheaper monitors struggle to give the full 256 colour resolution let alone 32bit. There a few high contrast HDR monitors but they are extremely expensive! The emphasis is on pixel quanity rather than colour range, much as with digital cameras, though increasing numbers of high end cameras can take pictures higher dynamic ranges these days.

Thus you see tonemapped images which are effectively commpressed in the colour dimension in a similar way to music.

Last edited by broadblues on 11-May-2015 at 04:24 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 11-May-2015 19:18:42
#345 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2287
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@ferrels

Quote:
When was the last time you actually studied microprocessor design? 1985?


My point is the latest Intels aren't exactly built up from scratch. There's modern features bolted onto an old architecture.

The same happens with every modern (micro-)architecture.
Quote:
When there is a piece of silicon dedicated to translating from an old instruction set with extensions to a modern RISC core that should be warning enough.

Why? Is there any technical reason, or just "no, it's no good (and no reason given)"?
Quote:
Quote:
A copper doesn't' do much more than sync the computer's output to the video display frame rate.


I think it does a lot more. More so from it's nature. Being able to modify hardware registers on a per pixel basis as it's being drawn on screen. I'm not aware of any hardware that can do that kind of modification in realtime.

Maybe because it's not useful anymore?
Quote:
So I still think that kind of thing is awesome. These days hardware tends to render into a framebuffer.

Exactly. The age of "console-like hardware" is past. You have to accept it.
Quote:
Case in point: The OS4 screen dragging doesn't use any raster interrupts or other copper like tricks but instead blits the screens to the framebuffer.

And that's a Very Bad Thing according to your vision, I suppose. Right?
Quote:
Quote:
And current video technologies already support 32-bit RGBA.


I've never seen a PC yet with that kind of resolution out of a standard consunmer VGA card.

The VGA was released 28 years ago. What do you expect, that a PC has to follow its hardware specification 'til now? Seriously?

The VGA was EXTENDED by many vendors, until the VESA committee decided to put order defining a STANDARD way to query, open, and operate with much more advanced video modes (and hardware acceleration too, but let to focus on one thing).

In fact, many games were developed that used such video modes, and millions of people enjoyed them, whatever you can think about it.
Quote:
Quote:
It's called HoloLens:


Well it fails the test here if it isn't activated first thing as the default interface. When ever I check out latest Windows versions it was looking plainer and more basic. No sign of 3d on start up. I've seen a few ideas for a 3d interface and have some of my own that could work in the Workbench as we speak.

So, do it yourself. Other peoples will see what the miserable Microsoft produces with his Hololens...
Quote:
Quote:
And if you don't like x86, that leaves with you ARM


Again this is current and old technology. RISC isn't the new kid on the block anymore.

Have you a better paradigm to offer?

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 11-May-2015 19:26:18
#346 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2287
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@fishy_fis

Quote:
Seriously, pc users are sheep?


I think so. Because there is not much choice. There is MicroShephard. Which leaves the rest to follow.

So, it was better when there were a few hardware devices, maybe with only one o.s. which ran on top of them?

Any reference to the Commodore machines isn't casual...
Quote:
There's also Intel leading the charge and I suppose AMD. because there's no other choice for CPU anymore.

It depends if you limit yourself your vision to just Intel and AMD. Aside this, there are plenty of different architectures, and you can even design your personal one now.
Quote:
And if you buy a Mac you are just getting an expensive PC in a custom white box with a custom UNIX.

So. Sheep by force, not by choice. I mean.

Nobody forces you to buy a different hardware and run a different o.s..
Quote:
Quote:
Also, you aspire to argb32? You do realise that higher color precision has existed for over a decade right?


No I don't, because I've never seen it. Is it in the hands of Joe PC and has been so for the past ten years? And has since been part of every generic VGA chipset? Since my poiint was having this in the hands of all consumers.

Again, you talk about the VGA. Basically for some unknown reason you were frozen on 1987, just after the VGA came out, and then wake-up a few years ago. That's why you missed a lot of things. Even the fact that modern "VGAs" internally uses floating point (even double precision, if needed) to represent and manipulate color components...
Quote:
But only a decade? Even Commdodore had the idea to put it into the API years before that and if the Amiga had survived it could had the first graphic chipset with that 32-bit RGB model in the consumer market.

Please, don't talk about that crap of the LoadRGB32 and similar APIs.

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Massi 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 12-May-2015 11:07:59
#347 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 519
From: Rome, Italy

@cdimauro

Quote:
Quote:
And if you buy a Mac you are just getting an expensive PC in a custom white box with a custom UNIX.

So. Sheep by force, not by choice. I mean.

Nobody forces you to buy a different hardware and run a different o.s..


Ciao,
not an easy speculation here ... but in a way you are "forced" by the market itself ... so it is always good to have alternatives.

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megol 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 12-May-2015 14:11:59
#348 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@ferrels

Quote:
When was the last time you actually studied microprocessor design? 1985?


My point is the latest Intels aren't exactly built up from scratch. There's modern features bolted onto an old architecture. When there is a piece of silicon dedicated to translating from an old instruction set with extensions to a modern RISC core that should be warning enough. Then again Mototola went down the other road of not bolting onto old designs and look what that got them.


Yes I agree. PowerPC is crap, IBM Z is crap, ARM is crap. The only processor architecture that is worth talking about is MIPS.

People not understanding processor architecture making claims based on feelings rather than technical disadvantages is common.

But x86 still is a CISC, I need just point out one example:

REP MOVSB

Which does a block copy using microcoded routines that takes care of alignment, takes care of abstracting the LD/ST width and executes it in a near optimal manner.

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pixie 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 12-May-2015 17:35:12
#349 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2676
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Trixie

My 0.02 worth! :P

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 12-May-2015 17:45:34
#350 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2287
From: Germany

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Nobody forces you to buy a different hardware and run a different o.s..


Ciao,
not an easy speculation here ... but in a way you are "forced" by the market itself ... so it is always good to have alternatives.

I think that it's only a question of money: you have to pay more for "non common" hardware. And the lack of software is a direct implication of the niche market.

Unfortunately that happened because "the three" (Apple, Atari, Commodore) failed to keep the market and let PC dominate.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 13-May-2015 14:52:03
#351 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@broadblues

Quote:
I think the others have misread your comments about argb32 not realising you mean 32bits per channel rather than 32 bits in total. So ARGB128 might be better acronym,


I thought that may have been the case. And was going to put ARGB128 at the start then "Unpacked" it so be more specific. That nay have not worked.

Then again, it looks like it was understood by some, since ARGB32 has certainly been around for over ten years!

Quote:
(on OS 4 SketchBlock uses floating point per channel, blender renders internaly in HDR and can save it out as EXR and jpeg2000 if built suitably)


You've made an interesting choice. FP is used by multitracks mixers these days as the standard choice for mixing channels with, but I don't know why. To me it looks like it would introduce mathematical "noise" if a signed 16-bit number from -32768 to 32767 is multipled into an FP number to be in the -1.0 to 1.0 range. The claim is more head room but math is math and clipping cannot be avoided if the volume needs toning down.

Myself, if I were writing a mixer, would ramp up the 16-bit samples to 24-bit by multiplying up by a volume level. That would mean any volume level would retain the orginal sample value or bit depth. I'd then add all channels together which would fit into a 32-bit window. So max 256 channels I suppose. The output would then be scaled down to 16-bit or even 24-bit. And could be normalsed before then to adjust output to max possible level. Just my thoughts.

Quote:
Even now cheaper monitors struggle to give the full 256 colour resolution let alone 32bit.


Have we gone back to 1987?

Quote:
Thus you see tonemapped images which are effectively commpressed in the colour dimension in a similar way to music


I hate the way compression has changed. It used to be data in, data out. But then they corrupted it with these media codecs. The digital version of copying to a tape and then back again till it was worn out. Digital entrophy you could call it.

Last edited by Hypex on 13-May-2015 at 03:09 PM.

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megol 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 13-May-2015 15:37:34
#352 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@Hypex

I think the others have misread your comments about argb32 not realising you mean 32bits per channel rather than 32 bits in total. So ARGB128 might be better acronym,

In terms of the technology, there are increasing numbers of applications working in High Dynamic Range colour, Photoshop can use 16bit for certainlt probably 32bit per channel too. (on OS 4 SketchBlock uses floating point per channel, blender renders internaly in HDR and can save it out as EXR and jpeg2000 if built suitably) but there is very little hardware that can display it.


Which for most cases doesn't matter. 24 bit RGB colors doesn't cover the visible range but that is often only detectable using artificial pictures designed for just that. HDR is mostly useful for avoiding precision loss when rendering analogous with 24 bit audio.

Quote:

Even now cheaper monitors struggle to give the full 256 colour resolution let alone 32bit. There a few high contrast HDR monitors but they are extremely expensive! The emphasis is on pixel quanity rather than colour range, much as with digital cameras, though increasing numbers of high end cameras can take pictures higher dynamic ranges these days.


Even a cheap (and even some more expensive) modern monitor provides 256ki physical colors. But it isn't hard to find monitors with 16Mi colors. 30bit color monitors are available but are mostly useful for very specialized things like medical imaging.

Quote:

Thus you see tonemapped images which are effectively commpressed in the colour dimension in a similar way to music.


Now I lost you.

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bison 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 13-May-2015 15:43:39
#353 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1910
From: N-Space

@megol

Quote:
The only processor architecture that is worth talking about is MIPS.

I quite like MIPS. I read the Hennessy book in college and did the programming assignments on an emulator. Its a pity the most recent SoCs are saddled with PowerVR.

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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broadblues 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 13-May-2015 16:26:58
#354 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@Hypex

Quote:

Then again, it looks like it was understood by some, since ARGB32 has certainly been around for over ten years!


ARGB32 means 32bits in total not the 32bit per channel you are talking about. Hence the confusion.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
(on OS 4 SketchBlock uses floating point per channel, blender renders internaly in HDR and can save it out as EXR and jpeg2000 if built suitably)


You've made an interesting choice FP is used by multitracks mixers these days as the standard choice for mixing channels with, but I don't know why.



Because a normalised floating point number (ie silence = 0.0 loudest = 1.0) has 256 time more resolution than a 16bit number, and the complex maths required for audio processing is faster and easier in floating point.

Quote:

To me it looks like it would introduce mathematical "noise" if a signed 16-bit number from -32768 to 32767 is multipled into an FP number to be in the -1.0 to 1.0 range.


You need to look a lot harder then

Quote:

The claim is more head room but math is math and clipping cannot be avoided if the volume needs toning down.

Myself, if I were writing a mixer, would ramp up the 16-bit samples to 24-bit by multiplying up by a volume level.


Two comments to that:

1. You just dismissed that a noisey in the context of floating point so why would not be noisey in the context of interger maths?

2. You don't multiple the samples up, you record with 24bit in the first place, then convert that to floating point for easier faster mathematics. Recording at 24bits reduces the risk of cliping (which is much more drastic in consequence in digital than anologue) and lowers the *added* signal to noise level.


Quote:

Even now cheaper monitors struggle to give the full 256 colour resolution let alone 32bit.

Have we gone back to 1987?


I'm talking about 256 colours per colour channel not total. Modern consumer display devices get no where near the 16M:1 rartio which is theoretical maximum at 256 colors per channel (256rx256bx256g).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LED_TV.jpg


Quote:

Quote:

Thus you see tonemapped images which are effectively commpressed in the colour dimension in a similar way to music


I hate the way compression has changed. It used to be data in, data out. But then they corrupted it with these media codecs. The digital version of copying to a tape and then back again till it was worn out. Digital entrophy you could call it.


:Sigh: Wrong kind of compression.

Last edited by broadblues on 13-May-2015 at 05:03 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 13-May-2015 16:59:53
#355 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@megol

Quote:

Which for most cases doesn't matter. 24 bit RGB colors doesn't cover the visible range but that is often only detectable using artificial pictures designed for just that. HDR is mostly useful for avoiding precision loss when rendering analogous with 24 bit audio.


HDR is certainly useful for that, but whilst 24bit RGB might create a wide range of colours the dynamic range along any axis is limited to 8 f stops (an f stop being a range of 2 to the power f ) the eye is capable of discerning significantly more than that in the first place ( 10 to 14) and then factor n the brains abilty to build imagery up as it goes, 24bits of colour / brightness data in one pixel falls far short.

Imagine for example looking out of a window in shaded room at bright sunny scene and being able to see detail both outside and in.

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:

Thus you see tonemapped images which are effectively commpressed in the colour dimension in a similar way to music.


Now I lost you.


Tonemapped images are created from HDR data by 'compressing' information in the colour and brightness ranges to allow detail to be seen in both dark and light areas, similarly to audio compression in music allowing the quiet intruments to stand out as well as the louder ones.

It's way of getting round the reduced dydnamic range of a monitor, and the even lower dynamic range of print.

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elatour 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 13-May-2015 19:00:29
#356 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@noXLar

Quote:

noXLar wrote:
@KimmoK


i can see the headlines in all major news websites:

Amiga community purchases Amiga Inc.

wow, what a dream.. i wounder how the community would handle Amiga Inc.

anyways, I'm all in for that:)

Open Source it if possible.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 14-May-2015 14:30:16
#357 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
Why? Is there any technical reason, or just "no, it's no good (and no reason given)"?


Because it's a legacy item. There's no need to support ASM anymore. They could just take instructions directly to the RISC core without a middleman. Apple has changed architecture two times on the Mac now and all were completely different. So there should be no need to be completely bacwards compatible.

Quote:
Maybe because it's not useful anymore?


It's a product of its time sure but there can still be applications where such realtime precision would be needed. We also still have a hardware sprite for a cursor which has to have some kind copper like hardware to modify the output of the RGB data at the cursor position. So it's not an entirely outdated concept.

Quote:
And that's a Very Bad Thing according to your vision, I suppose. Right?


It is because using the blitter is too much work. Screen dragging made use of hardware scrolling and bitmap offsets. It should be done in a raster interrupt. That would be just as efficient. Poor mans copper maybe but VGA has done it for years.

Quote:
What do you expect, that a PC has to follow its hardware specification 'til now? Seriously?


Why you asking me? I've seen VGA change over time so don't know what that is about.

Quote:
In fact, many games were developed that used such video modes, and millions of people enjoyed them, whatever you can think about it.


Sound cool, that's what I'd think. So what games were out there that used the 16-bit or 32-bit precision for each RGB gun? And were these frambuffer based (more work) or palette based (easier).

Quote:
So, do it yourself. Other peoples will see what the miserable Microsoft produces with his Hololens...


Easy enough but my basic idea works in a Workbench window, not a whole interface.

Quote:
Have you a better paradigm to offer?


I've already brought up possbie quantum CPUs as a candidate. The problem with what we have now is that it is refined to the point it physically can be. So we have CPUs that can't go way over 4Ghz and a cheat like multicores is needed to compensate. But unlike a car where adding cylinders can actually increase the raw output performance; adding cores to a CPU won't increase the raw Ghz speed, the code must be divided and split up to run faster. This isn't always possible, so a quad core @ 2.5Ghz can claim 10Ghz overall power, but it cannot produce 10Ghz in raw power alone.

There are some developments in materials like graphene. Which could provide a future material for CPU chips. Who knows, maybe a "light" CPU could be invented. But the internal transport layers may hamper the overal benefits. There are also other ideas propossed like combining the HD and RAM into one unit to reduce overhead.

Quote:
So, it was better when there were a few hardware devices, maybe with only one o.s. which ran on top of them?


No, I'm implying choice of both hardware and OS.

Quote:
Aside this, there are plenty of different architectures, and you can even design your personal one now.


And of these how many are suitable for the desktop? How many are used for the desktop? I see two. Acting as one.

Quote:
Nobody forces you to buy a different hardware and run a different o.s..


The dfference is gone these days. It's pretty much IA64 with Windows or *nix in whatever the box looks like.

I see Intel advertise on TV, don't recall AMD. But I wonder, why? Who are Intel going up against? A clone manufacturer who doesn't seem to advertise?

Quote:
Basically for some unknown reason you were frozen on 1987, just after the VGA came out, and then wake-up a few years ago.


I don't why you think this. I ask for examples of a ARGB128/A32R32G32B32 colour model being in the hardware of a standard VGA card since about ten years ago. No one provided any exact examples. And then you go on some kind of rant as if I just discovered VGA has ARGB32 frame buffers.

Quote:
Please, don't talk about that crap of the LoadRGB32 and similar APIs.


Whyt not? That's what this ia all about. Infact this VGA argument stems from a colour model that has 32-bits, per gun; not 32-bits per pixel, 32-bits per gun, where each pixel is 128 bits wide! Apparently this already exists in generic VGA chipsets since a decade ago, or so it is inferred. So even the virtual new Amiga graphic chipset I am proposing won't be as shiny!

Last edited by Hypex on 15-May-2015 at 04:42 PM.
Last edited by Hypex on 14-May-2015 at 02:59 PM.
Last edited by Hypex on 14-May-2015 at 02:47 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 14-May-2015 20:48:59
#358 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2287
From: Germany

@Hypex

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Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

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Why? Is there any technical reason, or just "no, it's no good (and no reason given)"?


Because it's a legacy item.

That's not a technical reason.
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There's no need to support ASM anymore.

ASM is still supported and used. Nevertheless, your statement has nothing to do with the translation of instructions that you talked about previously.
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They could just take instructions directly to the RISC core without a middleman.

It seems that you have no clue about how a computer architecture works.

To give you a quick answer, absolutely no: directly using the internal "RISC machine" will kill for sure the performance and requires quadruple the memory used for the code.
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Apple has changed architecture two times on the Mac now and all were completely different. So there should be no need to be completley bacwards compatible.

That's a totally different stuff. But yes, you can decide to kill binary compatibility, and resort to emulation to let the old binaries run on the new platform. It has a huge cost, and it has to be seen if it makes sense or not.
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Maybe because it's not useful anymore?


It's a product of its time sure but there can still be applications where such realtime precision would be needed.

I don't see how.
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We also still have a hardware sprite for a cursor which has to have some kind copper like hardware to modify the output of the RGB data at the cursor position. So it's not an entirely outdated concept.

I don't think that we have hardware cursors anymore. I think that they are emulated, "blitting" them or by the composition engine used by the o.s..
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And that's a Very Bad Thing according to your vision, I suppose. Right?


It is because using the blitter is too much work.

Absolutely not. Fetching a 1920x1080 (FullHD) image at 60FPS and with 32-bit depth requires 475MB/s of memory bandwidth. "Blitting" such image at the same rate requires roughly double that amount (only left and right borders uses some "masking"): 950MB/s. So, "composing" the final framebuffer + displaying it requires around 1500MB/s.

It means that even the cheapest and very low-end computer with an integrated GPU can do it without problems...
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Screen dragging made use of hardware scrolling and bitmap offsets. It should be done in a raster interrupt. That would be just as efficient. Poor mans copper maybe but VGA has done it for years.

You can still have a larger virtual framebuffer and positioning the display at a specific position.
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What do you expect, that a PC has to follow its hardware specification 'til now? Seriously?


Why you asking me? I've seen VGA change over time so don't know what that is about.

There's no VGA from looooong time. Why do you continue to use such obsolete term, which recalls such very old graphic card? That's misleading.
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In fact, many games were developed that used such video modes, and millions of people enjoyed them, whatever you can think about it.


Sound cool, that's what I'd think. So what games were out there that used the 16-bit or 32-bit precision for each RGB gun? And were these frambuffer based (more work) or palette based (easier).

As broadblues said: "I think the others have misread your comments about argb32 not realising you mean 32bits per channel rather than 32 bits in total".

Cleared that, 10 (TEN) years ago games already used FP16 for color components: http://e-mpire.com/showthread.php/48634-The-Heavenly-Sword-FP16-HDR-vs-INT8-RGB-debate . Now FP32 is very common. All framebuffer based, of course.
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Have you a better paradigm to offer?


I've already brought up possbie quantum CPUs as a candidate.

Do you that quantum computers can also solve a VEEEEERY limited set of problems (at good speeds)? They aren't practical for "normal", "common" usage.

Try with another paradigm, please.
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The problem with what we have now is that it is refined to the point it physically can be. So we have CPUs that can't go way over 4Ghz and a cheat like multicores is needed to compensate. But unlike a car where adding cylinders can actually increase the raw output performance; adding cores to a CPU won't increase the raw Ghz speed, the code must be divided and split up to run faster. This isn't always possible, so a quad core @ 2.5Ghz can claim 10Ghz overall power, but it cannot produce 10Ghz in raw power alone.

There are some developments in materials like graphene. Which could provide a future material for CPU chips. Who knows, maybe a "light" CPU could be invented. But the internal transport layers may hamper the overal benefits. There are also other ideas propossed like combining the HD and RAM into one unit to reduce overhead.

You already gave the answer to your self: the point is what we can physically can do. And that has nothing to do with the RISC vs CISC vs AnyOtherParadigm.

So, again: do you have a better, CONCRETELY USABLE, paradigm to supplant the current ones? To be more clear: no fantasy, but a pragmatical, real-world, answer, please.
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So, it was better when there were a few hardware devices, maybe with only one o.s. which ran on top of them?


No, I'm implying choice of both hardware and OS.

There are choices. The point is that you have to look at market niches, which can be very expensive.
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Aside this, there are plenty of different architectures, and you can even design your personal one now.


And of these how many are suitable for the desktop? How many are used for the desktop? I see two. Acting as one.

You're restricting the target. Yes, there are a few of them currently, and if you want to build a new, custom one, you have to spend A LOT of money.
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Nobody forces you to buy a different hardware and run a different o.s..


The dfference is gone these days. It's pretty much IA64 with Windows or *nix in whatever the box looks like.

IA-64 = Itanium. I think that you were referring to x64, right?
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I see Intel advertise on TV, don't recall AMD. But I womnder, why? Who rre Intel going up against? A clone manufacturer who doesn't seem to advertise?

AMD made some big mistakes, so that why she isn't in a good market position.
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Basically for some unknown reason you were frozen on 1987, just after the VGA came out, and then wake-up a few years ago.


I don't why you think this. I ask for examples of a ARGB128/A32R32G32B32 colour model being in the hardware of a standard VGA card since about ten years ago. No one provided any exact examples. And then you go on some kind of rant as I just discovered VGA has ARGB32 frame buffers.

See above: your writings brought misleadings. And you still talk about "VGA", which is a very old card with not even had ARGB32.
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Please, don't talk about that crap of the LoadRGB32 and similar APIs.


Whyt not? That's what this ia all about.

It didn't make sense when it was introduced because there was absolutely no need for it, especially if you think that Commodore's AGA machine not even had an ARGB32 framebuffer!

For the rest, see below.
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Infact this VGA argument stems from a colour model that has 32-bits, per gun; not 32-bits per pixel, 32-bits per gun, where each pixel is 128 bits wide! Apparently this already exists in generic VGA chipsets since a decade ago, or so it is inferred. So even the virtual new Amiga graphic chipset I am proposing won't be as shiny!

Currently an ARGB32 asset produced sufficient quality. Internal calculations make use of floating points from a very long time. Integers are the solution used by poor people.

So, it's MUCH better to talk about ARGB with FP16, FP32, or FP64.

Again, LoadRGB32 was and is totally useless (and it was also buggy: only a couple of years ago it was fixed on OS4).

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 15-May-2015 16:54:11
#359 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@megol

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Yes I agree. PowerPC is crap, IBM Z is crap, ARM is crap. The only processor architecture that is worth talking about is MIPS.


I haven't heard about MIPS in a long time. Quote:
People not understanding processor architecture making claims based on feelings rather than technical disadvantages is common.


So you you think that MIPS would have been a better choice above all these others?

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But x86 still is a CISC, I need just point out one example:


But where does it sit between crap and worth talking?

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 15-May-2015 17:39:48
#360 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@broadblues

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ARGB32 means 32bits in total not the 32bit per channel you are talking about. Hence the confusion.


Yes I know that. But I didn't put it like that. I put it as A32R32G32B32 so there should be no confusion. The only confusion there should be is when I put 256-bits for each pixel when I meant 128-bits.

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Because a normalised floating point number (ie silence = 0.0 loudest = 1.0) has 256 time more resolution than a 16bit number


That makes it sound like 24-bit. But I wasn't restricting the integer math to 16-bit. We have 32-bit since years, 64-bit is common these days and vectors provide 128-bits.

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You need to look a lot harder then


I still come to the same conclusion after reading up on FP format. The whole value of a 16-bit word in my example is turned into a fraction. It has to be comverted to FP and if positive, multiplied by 0.0000305185094, else if negative muliplied by 0.0000305175781, to bring it into the range of -1.0 to 1.0. Hence my concern.

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1. You just dismissed that a noisey in the context of floating point so why would not be noisey in the context of interger maths?


Because in my example the original value is kept as is or a multiple used. It isn't converted to a different format where it must be modified to fit.

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2. You don't multiple the samples up, you record with 24bit in the first place,


I'n not talking about recording. I'm talking about using pre-existing samples which happen to be 16-bit in this case. 48Khz if you like.

Taking an example. Say we have this Paula emulator that mixes two 8-bit samples and output is 16-bit. Let's say it halves the samples at mix down because it worked off the assumption that is what the Amiga is doing. A poor routine will divide the samples into 2, add them then ramp up like so:

o = (s1/2) = (s2/2) * 255

As you can see the resolution of each sample was dropped. I think halving is bad anyway but this but a better way would be this:

o = (s1 + s2) * 128

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Sigh: Wrong kind of compression.


So what kind of music compression were you talking about? Or where you talking about other compression such as DRC for one example?

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