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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 21-Sep-2014 18:51:22
#301 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11387
From: Norway

@Rob

Quote:

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Anyway its better to have real memory, then depending on memory being swapped out when you run low.


It really depends how fast it swaps out. Since under emulation it will all be on the same bus there'll be less of a penalty.


Not all memory can be swapped out, and I don't know if every program acts right when its swapped out, but I agree it should not make a difference, but it might. Anyway it might be just my paranoia.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Sep-2014 at 06:54 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 21-Sep-2014 21:26:51
#302 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

He tried to increase accellerator RAM. However, OS4 could support Z3 as RAM - that would be simple change

Simple: there's no such thing as "simple" when it comes to OS4/MorphOS and emulation... I mean: I don't see Hyperion releasing an updated OS4 (or even a single patched file) if it only benefits emulation. Especialy not if it benefits emulation...

Some people have bought OS4 "Classic" just for using it with WinUAE: I think that their money aren't less important than compared to people which uses this product on real hardware.

The patch should be very simple to implement, so it'll not require ages for the authors...

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Ancalimon

Quote:
Would it matter under emulation?


Well yes, the emulation does not change what AmigaOS4 is doing,

it might be true that Z3 RAM is slower then RAM on a PC, but even so the emulated Z3 memory is used as swap.

From an emulation point-of-view it doesn't matter: both Z3 and PowerPC board RAM will run at the same, maximum speed.

Z3 is not chip ram, where you've to take care of the timings: it runs as fast as possible. The same for the on-board memory. Slowing down them on purpose, for a "cycle-exact emulation", doesn't make sense, and I'm pretty sure that Toni hasn't implemented it this way.
Quote:
Anyway its better to have real memory, then depending on memory being swapped out when you run low.

Of course. A simple patch can solve it.

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@tlosm

Quote:
@pavlor run a timedemo with quake in 640x480 in software mode there are many porting for wos and ppc.library i can say the result compared with sam 440,460 ,xe,pegasos2 and some cybererstorm ppc


Now, Quake ports work with WinUAE 2.9.0 beta 17. Tried only 320x200...

timedemo demo1
QuakeWOS: 28.6 FPS

Unfortunately it suffers from the slow speed of the emulated (not JITed) FPU.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 26-Sep-2014 18:08:37
#303 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9114
From: Unknown

First post from OS4 (Netsurf)


Installation of AmigaOS 4.1 was easy (only too much updates to install...). AmiUpdate is really cool. I had sole problem with Connection Wizzard and Czech locale (wrong names of options).

My first impressions (and some Benchmarks) confirm expected performance on Core i5-2500K: 400 (OGR-NG, DosBox) to 1000 (RC5-72) MHz 604e.

Im impressed by 68k compatibility of OS4. I just copied my applications (TvPaint, PPaint - there I changed paths in config file) and some games (Populous II - WHDLoad installed) - all work without problem by double-click. No other installation needed. My WinUAE box is fast enough for A500 games emulated by RunInUAE. I will try more demanding classic games later.

128 MB Fast RAM + SWAP is not enough for some applications (Odyssey), other work OK (NetSurf, OWB 3.32 - certainly only few tabs can be opened).
AbiWord (AmiCygnix) is slow, but useable for simple text writing with footnotes. I must try some more complex documents (eg. my master thesis).

4 MB GFX RAM is also very limiting. I use 1366x768-16bit (native resolution of notebook of my brother), TFT on my desktop supports up to 1680x1050. Transparency effects work even with Picasso IV (fast), I thought these are only for Radeon cards.

Stability: There are crashes in low-Fast memory situations. May be also error in emulation (crashes entire emulation, not only OS4). Time for games!

Edit: RAM, VRAM and stability.

Last edited by pavlor on 26-Sep-2014 at 06:17 PM.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 26-Sep-2014 18:13:17
#304 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1768
From: Unknown

@pavlor
The needed ppc board roms are they legal?

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 26-Sep-2014 18:18:58
#305 ]
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Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9114
From: Unknown

@phoenixkonsole

I dont think so.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 26-Sep-2014 21:33:04
#306 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11387
From: Norway

@phoenixkonsole

It's Abandonware, you can't buy the roms and hardware is not sold anymore. Unless roms are offered for sale it has no commercial value. Phase5 is out of business, I think you can safely copy the rom's with out getting into any legal problems with original owners.

DCE might be the owner of the ROM's but they have not offered it for sale, nor have I seen any statement from DCE about the ROM's.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 12:22 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Sep-2014 at 10:06 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Sep-2014 at 09:34 PM.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 26-Sep-2014 21:54:50
#307 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1768
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga
I can reach dce in some minutes by car. I know that they purchased some of property/ip
I asked them some years ago for a quote for manufacturing a mobo. I know that they don't care about amiga anymore but "abandonware" is relative if you try to use it in commercial context like me.
I just hoped for a offical statement in another forum about the status.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 26-Sep-2014 at 09:56 PM.

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terminills 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 0:19:09
#308 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1388
From: Unknown

@phoenixkonsole

They are property of the bankruptcy trustee iirc.

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wawa 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 2:01:30
#309 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

funny enough p5 accel roms are abandonware but amiga kickstarts are not. not that it bothers much admittedly.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 8:25:11
#310 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1768
From: Unknown

@terminills
Maybe, maybe not : )
From Wikipedia : " DCE bought licenses before liquidation and produced some of the Phase5 hardware products under its own name. "
I will call then Monday. I see no problem for private use in most but not all countries, it is just to clear things for comercial context.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 27-Sep-2014 at 08:28 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 12:00:37
#311 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11387
From: Norway

Quote:
but amiga kickstarts are not.


the Kickstart ROM's are being sold by AmigaKit.

http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=62

The Rom files are being sold as part of AmigaForever and AmigaOS4.1
So ROM's have some kind of commercial value.

As Amiga Inc is selling Amiga games to Black Barry I assume the rom's are also bundled with there games.

Amiga Kit are selling the physical rom's
Hyperion, Cloanto and Amiga Inc as bundling the ROM's as part of there products.

And also the Kickstart is not abandoned because the libraries / devices / and other part of roms are part of AmigaOS4.0/4.1 kickstart (just newer versions with bug fixes etc).

I think Hyperion wonts people to upgrade, and putting resources on back porting to 680x0 means less resources to improve the OS. How ever layers.library has been back ported so maybe its possible. An other issue is trying to prevent forking of the source tree, having things close sources means that they don't need to worry about incompatibles. (some developers/hacks revere engineering libraires and putting hair in the soup so to speak)

I understand that Amiga1200/4000 users wonts to new kickstart rom's, I understand there frustration with old DOS.library and OLD fastfilesystem and other parts. Of AmigaOS3.1/3.9 that might give people problems.

If people want Hyperion create a new ROM, classic users has to show that there is a market, and that it makes sense to do so.

Anyway wawa if you like to read about the status quote, there is some information about it at Amiga.org.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67649

I'm not sure what "page" but that topic has attract some developers who have worked on AmigaOS. (Thomas Richter, Olsen, Karlos to name a few.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 12:22 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 12:15 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 12:14 PM.

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number6 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 13:16:20
#312 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10867
From: In the village

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
As Amiga Inc is selling Amiga games to Black Barry I assume the rom's are also bundled with there games.

Amiga Kit are selling the physical rom's
Hyperion, Cloanto and Amiga Inc as bundling the ROM's as part of there products.


Perhaps I'm forgetful this morning, but what products are Amiga Inc. bundling ROMs with?

#6

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Everblue 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 13:41:58
#313 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2006
Posts: 639
From: Amigaland

I have a question....

Does Amiga OS4.1 run faster on WinUAE on a fast PC (i7) than on a real Sam460ex@1.1Ghz?



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DiscreetFX 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 13:44:30
#314 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 1887
From: Chicago, IL

@number6

If their games are emulated Amiga ones then the Kickstart ROM would be included with each one.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 27-Sep-2014 at 01:45 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 13:53:14
#315 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9114
From: Unknown

@Everblue

Does Amiga OS4.1 run faster on WinUAE on a fast PC (i7) than on a real Sam460ex@1.1Ghz?

With 128 MB Fast RAM, 4 MB GFX RAM and no Compositing? I bet no.

Last edited by pavlor on 27-Sep-2014 at 01:53 PM.

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number6 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 13:56:11
#316 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10867
From: In the village

@DiscreetFX

Quote:
If their games are emulated Amiga ones then the Kickstart ROM would be included with each one.


If you have a link concerning the blackberry operation that illustrates exactly what they are using, please post it.
As far as Amiga Games Inc. (the WRIT subsidiary) is concerned, they have zero products. The theory has been from the start that they needed to acquire such a license, hence their problem.
And if that is true, considering your statement indicating that the Amiga Inc. branch DID have such a license, the logic leads us to Amiga Inc. either (1)not being able to pass (sublicense) to Amiga Games Inc. or (2)never had a license in the first place, no?

Furthermore, look at who IS doing licensing:
Quote:
Hyperion Entertainment CVBA (Belgium) and Individual Computers GmbH (Germany) have signed a license agreement for use of Kickstart 1.3 and Kickstart 3.1 ROMs in processor accelerators for Amiga 500, Amiga 1000, Amiga 2000 and Amiga 2500.


What are the chances that Hyperion is anxious to assist Amiga by issuing a license? Throw Cloanto into that mix as well.

Like I said...if they have a license, why can't they produce any products at Amiga Games Inc.?

Any further discussion on this we should take to:
Term Sheet for New Acquisition of Amiga Games Inc.
where we do touch on the blackberry aspect as well.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 27-Sep-2014 at 02:05 PM.
Last edited by number6 on 27-Sep-2014 at 02:00 PM.

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Everblue 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 13:58:36
#317 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2006
Posts: 639
From: Amigaland

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@Everblue

Does Amiga OS4.1 run faster on WinUAE on a fast PC (i7) than on a real Sam460ex@1.1Ghz?

With 128 MB Fast RAM, 4 MB GFX RAM and no Compositing? I bet no.



Thanks. I bet someone will come up with a fix - then we'll talk

Or maybe Hyperion should make a Winuae version of Amiga OS4.1 with no HW limitations. It would be pretty funny if on emu it runs faster than X1000

Last edited by Everblue on 27-Sep-2014 at 02:05 PM.
Last edited by Everblue on 27-Sep-2014 at 02:04 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 14:52:15
#318 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11387
From: Norway

@number6

This goes back to gateway 2000 days, they did own it and they do, but sold the source code to AmigaOS and kickstarts to Hyperion under buy back agreement.

http://news.cnet.com/Gateway-buys-bankrupt-Amiga/2100-1001_3-278337.html
http://www.amigasource.com/interview_ben_hermans_hyperion
http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/38

Amiga Inc kept the ownership of the hunk/binary files, but lost the source code as I understand it. In the settlement agreement.

Cloanto has licensed to use OS3.0/3.1 files from Amiga Corporation (formerly Hi-Toro), and long before Amiga Inc existed, as I understand it OS3.5/3.9 comes from different agreement.

http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/13-122

Anyway lots lot crap to read, don't wont to go into details, but the end result is that many companies have right to distribute AmigaOS, only one company has the right to modify it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 04:13 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 15:11:54
#319 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11387
From: Norway

@Everblue

The QEMU emulation used by Tony is to slow to beat Sam440, its no way it can beat X1000, if you only get 1/20 to 1/10 of Mhz on I5/I7, 200Mhz 400Mhz, it wont help having better support for graphic cards under emulation.

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=969807&postcount=41

If Tony used Dolphin CPU emulation it might been closer to 800Mhz.
But Dolphin CPU emulation is incomplete as he says, so it can't be used.
and if it was used and he did add what is missing I bet it be slower.

Anyway I don't know how fast WinUAE is, because no one has yet run any ragemem and mplayer benchmarks.

What I know is if you running Linux (x86) in VirtualBox on x86 Window, is not like dual booting Linux, visualization is always slower then running the OS alone, emulation of a different CPU type is lot more complicated and a lot more CPU demanding.

Its even trick to emulate some ting as simple as a Amiga 500 on I7 correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7tkyjdw0Sg

this way you have MiniMig and hardware like that.

How ever this does not make WinUAE useless, it can be used when you travel, it can be used to recover, or it can be used to test stuff you have cross compiled, and it might also be used to test if things work on AmigaOS4.1 classic. So WinUAE can have many uses.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 04:16 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 03:22 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 03:21 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 03:20 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Sep-2014 at 03:17 PM.

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Everblue 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 27-Sep-2014 15:18:08
#320 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2006
Posts: 639
From: Amigaland

@NutsAboutAmiga

Ah well I understand what you mean. What I didn't understand is your Minimig comment =)

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